Last night as I was getting ready to go out and mow the lawn, my wife gets a phone call from the stake president. He wants to come by and visit with us, share a message with us. She said yes and a half an hour later he shows up along with his first counselor.

They don't really care to talk to my wife, after all she's not the one who is "lost". So they focus on me, asking how I'm doing, how my struggle with my testimony is going. I tell them that I'm not struggling with it any more, that I haven't been to church since January and I'm just fine with that.

They share with me a few faith promoting stories, like one woman who had been inactive for many years who is just coming back to church and how regretful she is that she was gone for so long. The SP then tells me that he lost his son recently and how grateful he is that, because his son lived up to his temple covenants, he'll get to see him again. I didn't tell him that many other churches think the same thing, that we'll get to see our family in heaven. The difference is in the hoops required to obtain that privilege.

I just let them talk, let them leave their two conference talks with me to read, and sent them on their way. Afterwards my wife told me that she didn't like that approach. Apparently I'm supposed to proclaim to them that I'm "inactive", a term I avoid because it's church specific. And I'm supposed to tell them all about why I'm not attending so they can help me. That if I'm not expressing my "concerns" to them, how can they help address them. Personally, I don't feel they have anything they can offer me. I've learned things I can't unlearn or put back on a shelf.

I'm just so tired of dealing with all of this. I want to put this behind me and move on with my life. But I have a feeling that as long as I have a TBM wife and kids I'll have this conversation every couple of months.

wanting you to address the issues so they can help you. Of course, WE THINK they have all the answers.

Here we go again--but I'll bring it up again--when I found out my ex was gay OH SO MANY YEARS AGO--I thought "If I can only talk to the bishop--I'm SURE he has the answers." (My boyfirned didn't want me to talk to the bishop--though he had already "confessed.") When he had no answers, I thought, "Surely, the SP has answers . . ." Nope. SURELY my good mormon friends I worked with (who had been leaders) would have the answers (actually I went to them first)--NOPE, no answers. Then I wrote packer because one of my bishop friends told me to. He just told me he had no time for me and how DARE I WRITE TO HIM.

She THINKS they have answers . . . and even when it is obvious they dont'--she'll still believe as I did. It took years until I realized what a mind f&ck they'd put me through.

I wish I knew how to help you handle this. My daughtger has supposedly finally "laid of"--I had to resign, though, to get her to do so. They all want to believe you STILL BELIEVE DEEP DOWN.

cl2 (not logged in) Wrote:
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> They all want to believe you STILL BELIEVE DEEP DOWN.


Oh, they're sure of it. If there's one thing that Mormons all believe, it's that everyone on the planet knows that the Mormon Church is God's one and only true church.

It's their spirit which knows. They just have to push their mortal self aside so that they can hear that spirit.

If you find playing it is unpleasant, then you may want to end the game by resigning. That may bring some unpleasantness too but then it should pretty much be over.

Your wife and the SP are treating you as though you are stupid and/or are mis-guided. They are disrespectful of your ability to think and figure things out. You may be resiliant enough to not let that bother you but if you are posting about it, I suspect you are feeling devalued and your resentment is growing.

You get to choose how long you will take it on the chin. It's my opinion that you step up to the plate. Your wife doesn't have to agree with you but she stops talking about you in a negative way and putting you down and talking to the kids (and SP) about you.

I agree with dane....How long will you put up with people telling you THEIR testimony and what is wrong with you before you tell them YOUR beliefs and what is wrong with them? Just my opinion.

I agree, I'm getting tired of it all and I'm reaching the point where I might need to set aside the niceties and just be harshly blunt with them all. I've thought about resignation in the past but have avoided brining it up because I don't know what kind of impact it will have on my wife. It will make it clear how I feel though, so it may come to that.

I know everyone has a different tolerance for what they can do. When I first brought up leaving the church my wife said she would divorce me if I did. I said I'd give it an honest effort for a year and if I felt the same in a year, I would leave. At the end of a year of effort on my part she said she saw I had really tried and accepted my leaving. She left a few months later. We divorced five years later, anyway, but it wasn't directly due to my leaving the church.

Something to keep in mind is you probably thought about the church and your feelings long before you became open about them. So, in a way your wife is behind you and trying to catch up with coming to terms with your changes. It can be frightening when a spouse begins to make fundamental changes because we are pulled to respond, and that is frightening, too. Finding a pace where you feel like you are making the changes you want that also allows your wife time to adjust (if she is going to) is tricky. As a rule of thumb, I tend to favor a slower pace rather faster, but it is really a matter for each individual and couple.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2011 01:41PM by robertb.

My first issue is this- My wifes Stake President and Ward Priesthood leaders think that they can call any time of day and interrupt our lives as though I felt any obligation whatsoever to entertain their amusing portrayals of caring. Can you help me figure out a way to keep them from ever bothering me again?

One simple word. RESIGN and make it clear that you want no visits from ANYONE representing the church.

onlyme:
"And I'm supposed to tell them all about why I'm not attending so they can help me. That if I'm not expressing my "concerns" to them, how can they help address them."

about morg stalkling that I read this morning and others' experiences with this, the complete advice would be to resign AND to get a restraining order.

Or you could turn the hose on them, a la the inimitable Cheryl.

Your wife has her loyalties mixed up, she should be on YOUR side.
Most likely, she invited them over to "straighten" you out.

Your mistake was to sit down with them in the first place.

Next time, keep on doing what you were doing and don't let some pompous ass priesthood holders interrupt your life.

But, hopefully,there won't be a next time after you tell your wife very nicely that morg authority is based on a ficticious book and that your chances of returning are zilch.

THEY (DW, stake pres, and 1st councilor) are the ones with the issue. They are not comfortable with your choice of inactivity—and that discomfort is THEIR issue! But they are trying to pass the buck to you.

I agree with “glo.” Don’t sit down with them in the first place! You are not the one with the issue. You have chosen freely to be inactive and you are comfortable with your choice. You do NOT owe the SP or any church member either a justification or an explanation of your choice. Your reasons are YOUR business and are not up for "discussion"!

Glo Wrote:
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> Next time, keep on doing what you were doing and don't let some pompous ass priesthood holders interrupt your life.

I agree with this. Your wife is the active one; let them visit with her. Greet them and then go to another room to read, watch TV, or whatever.

Suddenly, we had loads to talk about. They told stories of the trials of their faith and anecdotal faith promoting "facts" like how they prayed and blessings magically happened.

But I haven't seen them for a couple of years now. The one guy that was the friendliest and claimed to have been an atheist now never calls or talks to my wife much.

I think it is a keyword for unreachable - no sky daddy to leverage with.

This worked for my husband when the home teachers stopped by. They had nothing to work with and never came back. I think that it sort of freaked them out too.

Either that or tell them you're in training to convert to Orthodox Judaism. That really puts a kabosh on things.

To onlyme, a suggestion:

Your wife needs to understand that the only way that the SP can ever help you is if he knows and understands all that you now know. Most SP's don't have a clue about all the issues that you have uncovered. The next time he wants to come and visit, give him an assignment, for example; D&C Section 132. Then give him sources on how JS did not follow Section 132. Tell him that once he knows as much as you do about Joseph's polygamy and polyandry (how is polyandry justified in Section 132?), then you will entertain a discussion about it. Tell him what you need is answers to difficult gospel questions, not a guilt trip. How can JS be revered as a prophet when he failed to follow his own revelations?

I doubt he will take up the challenge, because it would mean he would need to actually do so research, and he will not find any answers, just more questions. I would also tell him that he who makes the claim, has the burden of proof of providing the answers.

Truth can withstand scrutiny. Also, there is the famous saying about "milk before meat", but the mormon church never gets to the meat, its a perpetual diet of milk.

I think it would be fun, if you choose to do this, to give the SP the entire list of your problems with the church. Many on this board can provide theirs if you need some help with that. One that I came across recently is several pages long, and pretty much sums all of the issues in great detail. I'll post a link when I get home tonight if you want it. He may not take up the challenge when he sees that it will take several years of meeting with you to discuss them, to say nothing of the research that he would need to do to get up to speed on them.

Or you could just tell him that his visits resolve nothing for you, so why waste the time.

I've seen lists before but I'd love to see the one that you came across. I've thought about taking this approach before with the bishop, since he's the one I've seen most often. But I've hesitated for some reason. By after last night, I see that i might need to take a more hard lined, factual approach. Sharing my specific concerns might be the only way to get them off my back.

And my wife thinks there are legitmate responses to all of the issues I have, even though she won't listen to what they are. So when all they come back with is "have faith" and "pray", she might take note that the church doesn't have solid answers to these things.

My opinion is the main issue here is with your wife, not the stake president. She is the person, other than you, who has the greatest interest in how this turns out. One way of looking at this is your wife is giving you an opportunity.

You might consider setting some ground rules with your wife. For example, since *she* is the most important person in your life and *she* is the person wanting you to deal with this, then *she* needs to listen to your concerns and be willing to research them with you.

It is not something she can put off on the stake president. That isn't fair. Doing that isn't participating with you; it is only pressuring you through other people. Let her know you are willing to go through each concern, one at a time, at her pace, but you are not willing to be pressured by others.

I would recommend you show a lot of love, be as matter-of-fact as you can, avoid being angry or critical, and that you give her all the time she needs to consider and study each issue. Address her fears and reassure her you want to be with her. Avoid arguing. Just state how you see things. Agree to disagree or agree to table issues that are unresolvable right now--there may be many.

I think you are absolutely right. My wife is the one I should have these conversations with, not church people that mean nothing to me. Unfortunately she sees the conversations not as a back and forth of ideas, but rather as an opportunity for me to talk about what I don't like about the church so someone can give me the answers I need to come back. And she doesn't feel like she can give me those answers. And really, no one can.

But I do need to start talking with her more about my issues with the church.

Suggestion? If you are not already doing this, try to focus a lot on common values and interests apart from the church. Also, frame your concerns about the church in terms of your values, feelings, and needs rather than criticisms of the church.

So, for example, instead of "The church leaders are control freaks," try, "I really value freedom and the right to speak my mind and I don't feel I can really do that in church." An approach like that might help.

At one time, while I was in the process of leaving, I made a list of my major criticisms of the church and reframed them as statements of my values and feelings and needs. It made talking to my wife and church members easier and it helped me feel more confident, also.

Last night as the Stake President was getting ready to go out and mow the lawn his wife gets a phone call from onlyme. He wants to come by and visit with the Stake President & wife, share a message with them. The Stake President's wife said yes and a half an hour later onlyme shows up along with a fellow exmormon.

They don't really care to talk to the Stake President's wife, after all she's not the one who is "lost". So they focus on the Stake President, asking how he's doing, how is his struggle with being in a cult going. The SP tells them that he's not struggling with it any more, that he hasn't been to RfM since January and he's just fine with that.

They share with me a few faith destroying stories, like one woman who had been abused by the church for many years who is just coming back to RfM and how regretful she is that she was gone for so long. Onlyme then tells the SP that he lives with no regrets that his kids won't have to waste their lives away in a cult.

The SP just let them talk, let them leave their two exmo conference talks with the SP to read, and sent the exmos on their way. Afterwards the SP's wife told the SP that she didn't like that approach. Apparently the SP is supposed to proclaim to them that he's "delusional", a term the SP avoids because it's agnostic specific. And the SP is supposed to tell them all about why he's not on RfM so they can help me. That if the SP is not expressing "concerns" to them, how can they help address them. Personally, the SP doesn't feel they have anything they can offer him because he's emotionally invested things that can't be put on any shelf.

The SP is just so tired of dealing with all of this. He wants to put this criticism of his church behind himself and move on with his life. But he has a feeling that as long as his General Authorities are delusional that he'll have this conversation every couple of months.

Your story is NOT funny. It's no fun. I've been in your shoes before. In fact it was the beginning of a very paintful decade.

The problem here is NOT your Stake President. He leads a tribe of delusional people and there is nothing you are going to do to change that throughout your community. The problem is that you don't have good ground rules in your marriage and your home to deal with the fact that your wife believes in a delusional false religion which destroys so much in a marriage when one truly believes and one doesn't.

One thing I did that made a big difference was a ground rule I set for church leaders that all questions were to be handled over email. I bet they hated this immensely, especially when I called them out for any manipulative approaches. I also refused to answer any questions unless they first answered my top 10 questions. In addition I notified them that any contact to me was to first include answers to my questions. From time to time I had to remind them of this as I'd reply to their correspondence with a message that included the history of my previous email to them spelling out the ground rules and me chastisizing them for their procrastination on trying to sincerely answer the questions of those like me who are "less active" because their questions are ignored. The LDS leaders sure don't like it when someone tells them what the rules are and they especially don't like it when they have to accept that they have no real power. In the world of Mormons it's no big deal that my questions are ignored. But to non-Mormons they're generally apalled.

Your primary focus ought to be on figuring out the achille's heel of your wife. A few common themes tend to make a difference with TBM women.

1. Carefully bring up polygamy on a regular basis and how you don't understand it and need your wife's help to really overcome this stumbling block. I'd tell her that you've prayed about it and feel strongly that you need the Lord's help to understand clearly and honestly the WHYs on all the polygamy of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, other prophets and all they taught + what's in the scriptures on polygamy. I'd suggest that L. Tom Perry, Russell M. Nelson, and Dallin H. Oaks become your favorite GA(s) to quote now to your wife. If you don't know why I picked out Perry, Nelson, and Oaks then you need to do your homework. Most TBM women hate the church's polygamy history and they hate how Mormon men like Perry/Nelson/Oaks who become widowers or divorced can have multiple wives for eternity.

2. Carefully bring up temple garments and the history of their use + the markings' plagiarism on a regular basis. Most TBM women hate garments but they'll never admit it because they're trying to be good and not deceived by Satan.

my2cents and onlyme

Please post you links to the lists. The missionaries are in my neighborhood and have missed us twice. They left their "I'm a normal mormon' card in the door.

I expect them back until contact is made. I'd be fun to ask them their thoughts on some of the topics I've seen on this board...
Which version of the 1st vision do you believe?
Do you believe you can become a god when the 1st Commandment forbids other gods?
Do you have a 14 year old sister and would you let prophet Monson marry her?
If the blacks are descendents of Cain and couldn't hold the priesthood because of their pre-life, aren't they still in the same boat today?
Why do you have to pay to take part of your church's sacred ceremonies? Was this the way of Christ?
Was Christ ever get married, did he have children, aren't they dark skinned because of the part of the world where they came?

Any missionary could easily answer these questions and then feel like they'd "beat" anti-mormon literature.

1. All of them. He revealed different things to different people at different times.
2. As a god, my spirit children will be forbad to worship any gods beside me, just as my heavenly father forbids me to worship any gods beside him. That doesn't mean there aren't other gods. If there weren't other gods, why would the commandment be necessary in the first place?
3. Yes, I do and yes I would if it was the lord's will.
4. It's not mormon doctrine that descendents of Cain couldn't hold the priesthood because of their pre-mortal life.
5. Sacrifice is absolutely the way of christ. Tithing is all about sacrifice.
6. The church doesn't have an official position on whether christ was married in this life, nor if he had children, and the color of his skin is inconsequential. He was not a descendent of Ham. He was a descendent of Shem.


There are much better things to bring up to missionaries if you want to destroy their testimonies, starting with the "god concept" itself. Just sayin'..

I know about this routine. I'm married to a long time generational believer/member.

I was a convert in 1962, and my husband (an RM I married in the temple), knew that I was loosing any interest in Mormonism in the late 1990's and eventually didn't consider myself a Mormon anymore, for a variety of reasons. I realized, very quickly, that he had compartmentalized the beliefs to such a point that nothing I said was acceptable. So, eventually, I shut up about it. I made sure he was comfortable with me resigning my membership. He was, and I did. That was 2002.

I have taken the position that religion needs to be a non-issue in our marriage.
I've been married for 49 years now with an extended family (most have left the LDS Church), and I'm not about to do anything to mess up my marriage or family relationships.

I have maintained a decent relationship with our LDS family and relatives as I respect their right to their beliefs just as I want my respected. I don't challenge. question, or try to teach them them and they don't challenge or question me. I keep it a non-issue. There is so much more to relationships and friendships than a religious belief.

I understand where the LDS folks are coming from when a family member or friend leaves the LDS Church aka their tribe, as I refer to it as that best describes my experience and observation of the situation.

Having lived Mormonism for many decades, I understand that generally, the typical LDS family puts it's whole focus on the Eternal Family and it's continuance in eternities in the CK, and feel rejected, betrayed, and unaccepted once someone leaves. Often some of them, especially parents, think they did something wrong that they will be held accountable for to Heavenly Father in the eternities. I think that accounts for much of their behavior and comments when someone, in their view, leaves the LDS Church and in essence turns against them.

My view, is that in your case, you will need to make your wife and family more important than the LDS Church and exercise a lot of patience and understanding. In their view, you have left the "tribe" -- your patriarchal blessing told you you were of the tribe of Ephram or Manassa, right? They believe they are of the house of Israel and that is your tribe. I also use the term: tribe because they use it in their lexicon.

Maybe your wife, or others will come around to your view point, maybe not. I know the "maybe not" part very well! :-)
What they think about me and my beliefs is not about me, it's about them. It does not concern me. They can believe anything they choose and it has no bearing on how I live my life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2011 08:46PM by SusieQ#1.

Here is the link that I referenced above.

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1ry2Eqtdw6BB0HmeC7QVy6UirWtHgyfs3WunyXUgZKpM

Thanks for the link. I can't access it here from work but I'll take a look at it when I get home.

I agree with the other posters that suggest you focus on your wife. Your wife is the person who accepts the invitations and she is the person who you care about. She is the one who needs to understand and accept your feelings, concerns, and beliefs. The Stake President and any other people from the church are just distractions and ways for your wife to avoid the situation.

You need to figure out first what you are willing and able to do. Are you willing to go to church and pretend if your wife asks. Are you willing to have further conversations with ward and stake leaders knowing that the goal is to reconvert you. If you are not (I wouldn't be) you should tell her.

Having real discussions with her about what you belief and are willling to do are going to be hard and will likely be unpleasant at times. You may want to consider getting a neutral marriage counselor.

I don't have all the answers to working out these issues, but you may find something in the paper that is helpful. If you'd like a copy, I can email it to you. My email is rbrtbaumgardner@yahoo.com.

I also agree with the other posters that the most important person for you to deal with is your wife.

The only thing you want to know from the SP is:

Will you support my marriage and encourage my wife to be respectful and loving to me despite our differing views on the LDS church or will you encourage her to view me as a "less than" husband and even perhaps to consider divorce?

Will you encourage my children to continue to love and respect me as their father or will you encourage the ward/bishop to go behind my back and undermine our relationships?

Will you allow gossip about me/us or will you put a stop to any unkind comments or speculation about my "worthiness" both around the water cooler and formal meetings?

"Apparently I'm supposed to proclaim to them that I'm "inactive", a term I avoid because it's church specific. And I'm supposed to tell them all about why I'm not attending so they can help me. That if I'm not expressing my "concerns" to them, how can they help address them."

Love this! They obviously want you to tell them your problem with TSCC so they can recite the Mo jargon and I think you just let the air out of that tactic! LOL


"The SP then tells me that he lost his son recently and how grateful he is that, because his son lived up to his temple covenants, he'll get to see him again. I didn't tell him that many other churches think the same thing, that we'll get to see our family in heaven. The difference is in the hoops required to obtain that privilege."


Ain't it the truth! Those hoops are way to high for my comfort level. Adios Boyz.

Well, I'm sorry dude. But, probably you should read my story:

As a minor, I have to endure all the mormon duties without complaining (because if I do, my mormon family will get very mad and even stop talking to me, just as one of my cousins did).

Is your situation as bad as mine?

Well, I know you're married, and your wife is mormon... :s