I don't know about anyone else, but one of the attractive things for me about Mormonism was its martial imagery and teachings.

It was not just that I was a member of a church. I was at war with the forces of cosmic darkness. We were surrounded by those doing battle on behalf of Satan - in the media, in the public school system, in the movie industry, in government, in popular music, etc. - and we had to vanquish them. Each small battle won by me, or my kin, was another push toward ultimate victory. And each effort gave us more glory. We were heroes, and heroes under the command of General Jesus.

And not only were I and my church friends and relatives war heroes *now*, but we had a long history of war heroism. Our spirits, after all, had been forged in the fiery furnace of pre-earthly battle somewhere in outer space. Awesome!

That might be the biggest reason I liked my mission. I was at war. Holy war.

Leaving Mormonism meant losing the opportunity to gain heavenly, and earthly, acclaim for martial feats of derring-do. Other people seemed to enjoy the peace. I certainly enjoyed the peace of not having to perform absurd mental gymnastics trying to navigate the grotesque maze of contradictions known as "Mormon doctrine". But I can't say I enjoyed the loss of battle. It had given me a sense of meaning. Who I fought against helped define who I was. As Chris Hedges says in his book, "War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning": "The rush of battle is often a potent and lethal addiction, for war is a drug." Yes...although only in a spiritual way, I knew the feeling.

For those who are not wired - perhaps fortunately, for them - the way I am, and maybe others reading this are, I cannot really think of a way to describe what it's like for your whole being to yearn for intense and righteous battle, and not be able to find any. Paintball's fun, but the stakes aren't nearly high enough. If you get hit, it just stings for a minute. But back during my holy war days, the stakes transcended this earth, and were eternal. I might never see my family again in the afterlife if I messed up. One of my children might suffer eternal, spiritual consequences because I made a misstep as a dad. Maybe if I didn't walk out of the profane movie, General Jesus would mark that down in his giant book, where he was keeping track of everything.. Stressful? I guess. But for all that, still addictive.

Gotta run at the moment; more to come.

i never heard it put quite that way! it makes sense..... you are still jacked up for a fight.... its like adrenalin...ya want more! i never felt that way as i always thought "God" could fight his own fights!! i mean he/she is God right? maybe thats why i am a "lapsed"/apostate ex- Catholic! :)

Are you Jesus' General?

Ooo yeah, day to day life is really boring, isn't it?

;)

That is on an extreme end of the scale, but I don't think they are the only ones who have that need. Some people are born with a higher need for stimulation than average; for others it is due to how they grew up.

The constant "push" in Mormonism and its division of the world into "Us vs. Them" can develop a need in members (particularly males) for conflict and the accompanying rush. If nothing else members may be in fight mode to avoid awareness of how empty and exhausted they really feel.

Perhaps Joseph Smith, among other things, was an "adrenaline junkie" due to the early trauma he experienced.

It takes time to replace the adrenaline highs with more mundane pleasures.

I remember feeling such a sense of urgency to be prepared and constantly vigilant. I was so afraid of being caught off-guard. The high stakes just fueled irrational perfectionism and rigid, short-sighted thinking. I didn't enjoy it. It was a burden.

When I left and didn't have to think in those terms, I was able to let go of anxieties that had haunted me from the time I was quite young. I really savor the freedom of deciding for myself what my life is about and what my purpose is. I really enjoy not having to color within the lines, so to speak.

My husband has often said that he misses the confidence and urgency he felt when he thought he was operating under the authority of God and was an integral part of the whole cosmic drama. He had a harder time letting go.

It seemed like something was wrong if I didn't have something that needed to be done or improved or fought against. I still have to watch myself with that one. I have to tell myself, "It's OK to be OK." Anything like what your husband struggles with?

But seriously, I still have a hard time just relaxing.

And Tal . . . nice to see you back again. If you want the adrenaline, try Halo or Modern Warfare :-)

It's like he feels empowered by clear opposition, but when there's nothing working against him, he doesn't know what to do with himself. When we were first leaving the church, Mormonism became the enemy, and he was totally passionate about getting out and establishing a new life based on principles determined by reason. But now that we're pretty much beyond that stage and into comfortable living as non-Mormons, he's missing that passion again. I think he's a little bored without the drama.

I've noticed that sometimes he'll get disproportionately worked up by weird, seemingly-random things that don't matter at all. I've wondered if it isn't some psychological reflex to stir things up in order to create something to work against. I also suspect that it's the reason why he works himself to death. I wish he could just relax and enjoy the life he's worked so hard to make.

Another way religion traps minds, learned schizophrenia.

But, I agree, one of the negatives is the loss of a pre-defined system of meaning, "validated" by a large social group--often including loved ones and friends--with which one has found identity.

Thanks for posting your thoughts and feelings. I know your journey has been a difficult one.

Best of luck and welcome back. : )

From the talks in church to the public domain I proclaimed gawds words. Slowly, over the years, I was able to step out of the brain freeze that was religion.

I was such a committed warrior that sometimes I would still get tripped up and would proclaim the 'truth'. What an embarrassment I was to myself and others around me. I eventually came to realize that proclaiming the right and wrong of issues made me feel bad. I became a more tolerant and peaceful warrior. I try not to judge situations and people anymore (but I still do in a way but I think that is part of living. We see the crud but we can still choose not to put it on our plate)

It came as a surprise to me though when I realized my 'friends' and most of my acquaintences were so use to being warriors and to the battles that they continued to have different battles in their lives. (Even the one's that left the cult about the same time as myself simply changed battle fields. They are into suing people of being sued. Their'mormon-think process' is still the same).

Many seem to have to have struggle and misery in their lives. When I connect with them now, I will listen to their sagas but refuse to jump on their band wagons of self pity and arrogant dominance. I try to soothe them into letting go of the fight since they often are making themselves sick by their warrior attitudes and tactics.

My motto is to help if I can (if there is asking) but many times it seems they cannot hear or understand. Not to worry. If they persist in their wars, the wars will get bigger until they give up trying to change and/or control people and situations that they truly have no power over.

The most one can do is keep one's focus on things that make them feel a bit better. Eventually, things do get a bit better. It's like driving a car or riding a bike. Whatever you are focused on, your vehicle will drift that way.

It's not always easy to stop myself and ask myself, "Do I really want more of this?" However, if it's not something I find at least a bit pleasant, then perhaps I would be better off focusing on something which gives me a little relief. There will always be Sh&% that happens in life but we don't have to stay and wallow in it. JMHO



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2011 01:35AM by dane.

Imaworkinonit - Video games weren't high stakes enough. When you die, you just die. Then you start over. Then you die again. Then you start over. Nothing really happens.

No, I needed something far more intense, so I decided to try to learn how to play rugby. After all, if you made a mistake playing rugby, or - come to think of it, even if you didn't make a mistake - there was a pretty good chance of being seriously injured. Games I'd seen locally regularly featured players being helped off the pitch, and whisked away in ambulances to the hospital.

And with the church gone, my career seemingly permanently stalled (not least due to career-inhibiting decisions I made on grounds of religious principle), and my marriage falling apart in a way I was unable to stop, it seemed like a good a time as any to hurl myself into the abyss of the closest thing to actual tribal warfare I could find. Where else could I more certainly find meaning, than there?

And funnily enough, it worked. Playing rugby, more than anything else, is the one thing that has kept me stable in the aftermath of losing Mormonism and my wife. The counselors were useless. All I really needed was rugby. New friends as intense, irreverent, and martial-prone as I was, something to occasionally take my mind off the other imploding parts of my life, opportunities for heroic glory, new goals, achievements in an unfamiliar area, the intense camaraderie, everything making intuitive, primal sense, the thrill of combat, the risk...it was all there.

My husband tells me about stuff they did growing up that involved getting chased by a dog just for the fun of it (if you didn't outrun the dog, you got your pants ripped, or worse).

I'm sorry about your marriage. I met you and your wife the first year you spoke at the exmo conference, and visited with hre in the hall during some of the classes. Did she go back to the church? (Ignore me if I'm being too nosey).

My oldest daughter is a wife, mother, and a nurse. She has also been a paramedic and a firefighter.

She also trained for several months as a boxer, fought (and won) one fight - and then had it out of her system. She has done skydiving several times, and now loves snowboarding and mountain-climbing. She also raced motorcycles for a while. She got a ticket once for opening up her bike all the way and buzzing through interstate desert at 170.

I don't know what made her such an adrenaline junkie; nobody else in the family is like that - but she has always been very competitive. Also petite, cute as they come, and very bright!

i was 2nd row....but i really wanted to be 8th man!! i was having a discussion with someone at a dart tournement and he was saying that rugby players were not as good as American football players....because if they were.... they would make the big money playing American ball(NFL)....i told him a lot of football players would not be able to play for 40 minutes straight.... anyway glad you have found a replacement for you situation.... and the parties are the MOST fun!!

Oh man, now I've just gotta say it...
Son! Uncle Sam wants YOU! :)

Hi Atheist Marine

My uncle was a Lt. Colonel in the Air Force, and I was very close to joining Army Reserves during university in Utah. But I'd just gotten married and our first baby came long, one thing led to another, and I wound up doing music. Sadly, not a lot of combat in that field :).

I have had an intense, existential experience that I can't talk about to the people around me because of the suffering it caused - surviving and recovering from Katrina. It required so much physical and emotional energy and made us such a part of a community of shared hardship that I do now feel like I kind of understand the draw of warfare. Even the way I love my husband and children was changed - I only want to go through a Katrina with this man and these incredible daughters who were so brave and such good company in tragedy.
I left mormonism when I was quite young and it completely baffles me that my extended family members are still part of a cult, but this is an interesting discussion because I am seeing that they may well derive intensity and identity from their connections to their church. Still, there must be better alternatives for meaning than hurricanes and cults...

I desperately wanted to have this experience with Mormonism. After all, clearly defined good and evil were often the themes in my favorite books. I wanted to defend all things good and win the war.

I think my problem was that I never truly believed. I tried desperately to do so, but could never get all of my brain to go along with me.

Finally, I decided that even though I craved such adventure and such surety, I wasn't likely to find it anywhere outside the covers of my favorite books.

Part of me is quite glad I didn't have this kind of relationship with Mormonism. In retrospect, at least, or I may have spent a lot more of my adult life as a Mormon.

Dodged that bullet, didn't I?

Welcome back, Tal. Nice to read you again. :)

Erin



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2011 09:18AM by elee.

I remember playing HS football and getting hit so hard that half my torso went numb for 30 seconds or so. I remember making a semi-conscious decision at that moment that I didn't love football THAT much and that I was going to let my self-preservation instinct kick in a little more. I have never trusted the team as the best advocate of my interests.

LDS, Inc. has many martial hymns and plenty of "army" metaphor in its propaganda. I never bought it hook, line, and sinker (probably just hook). I am too much of a skeptic and saw too much contradiction for my 100% buy-in.

I visited a UU service one day and they were doing some fund raising and giving only to causes that were not tied to government funding, since it's possible that the government could be corrupt in the future to the point that it taints those taking funds from them. That struck home with me and was a reminder that I am reluctant to hitch my wagon up to anybody's train.

Ritual is a powerful thing. "Feeling the Spirit" in group settings was about feeling that universal power. It took me a while to figure out that it didn't matter whether the object of worship was true or not. I got the same vibe at rock concerts. It was the power of communing with your fellow man that I was feeling - the same stuff that binds an army together. Sorting out was is true is a much more complicated affair and works independently of the group bonding dynamic.

Hi Bignevermo

I play in Victoria, BC, for the Castaway Wanderers (http://www.cwrugby.com/rfw/). I kind of envy the forwards; there's a lot of contact there. I'm always in the backline, centers or wing.

Interesting comment you make. I once talked to a prominent trainer of NCAA football players, who told me that a lot of the guys he trains, he doesn't even put on cardio/fitness schedules, because the plays only last for eight seconds before you get a 45 second break! lol He just has them pump weight. That blew my mind.