I know there is a lot of resentment on this forum about the church, because I lot of people feel duped and taken advantage of by what they see as a church started and continued by evil power and money hungry liars and conmen. Having never been a Mormon I don’t have these same feelings towards the church because as yet, I haven’t been robbed of anything by the church. I’m just wondering what your guys thoughts are regarding the church and the intentions surrounding its conception as well as it’s continued existence? Do you think that Joseph smith was actually a power hungry adulterer that conjured up false doctrine for the sole purpose of fooling people to gain personally, or do you think he was simply a naturally gifted young boy with an overly vivid imagination who convinced himself that he was a prophet of God?

Also, what do you think of church’s leadership post Joseph Smith and perhaps Brigham Young? Do you think church leadership since has actively known and continued the lie in order to gain money and power, or do you think they are just as TBM as the lowly members and simply feel they are doing their duty to serve their God?

Looking at everything from a non-biased position, I think its all probably a bit of both. And I guess we will never really know. Sorry if there is already a topic about this as I’m sure there is, so feel free to point me to an earlier conversation if one exists.

from the organization was just happen stance because most people are generally wanting to edify and uplift but the creation that Joe did was NOTHING but a lie.

That lie was perpetrated right through the years to Warren Jeffs and Monson.

+1

+2

In all honesty, from what I, as a nevermo myself (other than investigating TSCC), see nothing that shows there were any "good intentions" involved, just lies, deceit, etc.

The older I get and the more I understand the world, I see that the Mormon cult was built on a foundation of deceit and manipulation. Don't you know where the road of good intentions leads? :)

Nope.

Joseph Smith SR. was into all kind of get rich schemes, including one that involved ginseng. So it is no surprise that Joe Jr. went out into the world to make his fortune from the rubes who thought they might strike it rich. With that in mind the whole history of Joseph reads like a cunning grifter going around telling story after story, cold reading the local gentry.Why do you think they were "Golden Plates"the whole thing fed upon the fears and greed of people. Promising a kingdom in the hereafter....... an even greater heaven.
I oft wonder if the fraud has continued, it is hard to say whether the current leadership actually believes or are they taking advantage of members. However in spite of supposed good intentions the whole thing is wrong and has many many undesirable consequences in the lives of members and especially non-mainstream folks.

Hell no! There was no good intention, it was a con right from the start! Now, however, as annoying, self absorbed, holier than thouand just plain creepy TBM's are, I think, for the most part, some of them truely mean well and have the best intentions at heart when they try to convert people. They just go about it in the worst possible way.

Since the Mormon church facilitated the mess that was my childhood, I'm bound to be negative. Having said that, what kind of an organization brainwashes children?

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2011 10:28PM by steve benson.

I’m sure it has caused a lot of pain for a lot of you, but from my perspective the church appears to brings a lot of joy and happiness to the lives of the members I know. For example the TBM I’m dating truly seems to love the church and all her and all her family seem to have a great time with it all. So it surely can’t be all bad?

I’m interested to see how you guys thing the Mormon church is any worse than other Christian denominations out there, or even other religions? I’m sure abusive of trust and power is not something that’s solely limited to the Mormon church (I’m thinking the kiddy fiddling that went on in the catholic church, the brainwashing of Islamic extremists etc).

That’s why I chose to take an agnostic view to it all.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2011 10:42PM by steve benson.

And facts mean nothing.

If TSCC brought so much happiness into its members' lives, Utah would not have the highest per capita anti-depressant usage in the United States.

The Mormon church does not have a market on happiness or families. They just like to tell people like your girlfriend they do.

I think like any other religion, it was started as a cult by a charismatic leader (like Jesus or Joesph Smith). They sort of feed on themselves sucking in more and more naive people and giving the leader more power. Then usually an organizer usually comes in (like Paul or Brigham Young) and makes it an organized religion.

Is it more abusive than other religions? In a lot of ways, yes. They still emotionally isolate their believers in a lot of ways. All the religions have the loon fringe. All the religions have groups that feel threatened by anything progressive.

I personally don't think there is a lot of difference between the religions- you can be emotionally hooked on any of them. The way some people carry on about Jesus or Allah makes moderate and liberal Mormons look sane.

Mormons are happy as long as everyone plays along. When someone leaves, they will cut the person loose, trying to damage the person's reputation to save the church's reputation. They have a vested interest in perpetuating the church.

Religion is about perpetuating and protecting itself and it's power. Politicians depend on religion to keep the people occupied and docile.

Check out Eric Hoffer's The True Believer

How come you don't mention brainwashing of MORMON extremists ?

Are you a troll ?

Like Milo said, his family tried out all kinds of cons to make money. Emma's father (his father in law) was very upset his daughter was marrying him even before the church was founded because he knew that Joseph had been involved in money digging and other scams to make money. He read Joseph the riot act--telling him to get his life in order and abandon his scams and that he better not hurt his daughter--before they got married. Joseph promised him he would reform himself.

But of course Joseph was a con and proceeded to fabricate being a prophet told by God to take polygamous wives. That poor father knew life was going to be bad for his daughter but he had no idea the depths to which his son in law was going to sink.

Brigham Young was probably even worse in terms of his exploitation of people.

Since then, I think many of the general authorities who followed were genuinely brainwashed from childhood.

I'll go totally against the grain here and say YES.

But let me qualify that. JS was very religious. He came from a religious family [although not very church-going on the male side]. He had two opposing motives: first was to be righteous and holy, the second was to have a good time. He solved his dilemma by having God command him to have a good time. He also got off on being a "prophet." Someone who was God's only special mouthpiece. He wanted to be special. This was a way to do it.

I don't think JS spent time thinking, "ha, these idiots are falling for my crap." But I do think that deep in his mind was the awareness that he was making it up himself and I think he fought that in order to convince himself that what he was doing was right.

But that's just my opinion.

I often wonder if, after Joseph was denied entry to the Methodist Church, he didn't simply say, "Fine! Then I'll start my own church, and it'll be run by my rules."

From historical accounts that I've read, by people who encountered him, it sounds like he had an enormous ego and didn't like to be challenged.

Oh, and as far as Brigham Young goes, the man was downright evil. I get that also by reading the accounts of people who had to deal with him.

Joe & Briggy had very good intentions to get laid by as many chicks as they could convince that god commanded them to bang these guys.

+1

Nevertheless, the fact that the book was the work of God, that he, Martin Harris, was an instrument in the hands of the Lord, was the consideration which moved him most powerfully. In this fact Joseph could find matter for meditation. Men could be moved by their religious beliefs as by no other means, for religious faith dignified and enobled what it touched. A man who gave him five dollars to search out in his peepstone the whereabouts of a lost cow was discontent and wanted his money back if the cow could not be found. A man who gave him fifty dollars to do the work of the Lord rejoiced in his soul over his own generosity and counted the money well spent.

Joseph seems to have been quick to see the implication of this truth, and ordered his life accordingly. Not folk magic but religion should henceforth be his sphere, his plates of gold found to comprise, in all truth, a golden bible.

Dale Morgan- On Early Mormonism, correspondence and a new history

Started with a lotta hype and bullshit, then continued by fraud. Enron may have delivered services to some customers, and some may have been happy with them. It doesn't change the fact that it was a criminal enterprise that was admired and defended by many establishment people...until the truth came out.

Knowing what I know about how JS plagiarized/stole most of his material from the Masons, then it's clear to me his sole purpose was to amass money & power from his unsuspecting neighbors.

OK, step back. Breathe in deeply, holllllddddd, then let it out.

Cleansing breathe.

The LDS church DOES hurt people, no doubt about it. The LDS church does helps people. It is a mixed bag. The leaders are still con men, at least the ones at the top. The local guys for the most part are trying to do their best or look good doing it hoping for higher position.

That's the truth.

For whatever good the mormon church does, the damage to some is way worse. It doesn't damage everyone the same, as everyones experiences or parents, in the church are varied.

Mormonism is a narcissistic organization that only cares about itself at the members expense. It is out to control all aspects of your life so that you service the cult.

My father and ex wife were narcissists and I know how they operate. The feel superior, they con you, they use you, and they dump you or shun/disown/divorce you if you don't do what they want you to do, which is to SERVICE THEM.

It doesn't want to give, it wants to take and use. It will use guilt, shame and punishment to break you. You are never good enough for the superior "only true church"

Mormonism is the modern scribe and pharisee religion that Jesus attacked at every opportunity.

It is just the result of a conning narcissist. It is a loyalty cult.

Those were the motivations of the Smith family and their fellow conartists. There is nothing in the actions of Joe that indicate he was thinking of anyone other than himself.

Joe had not idea what he was doing would grow so big, the one reason my dad always gives me for it being true "there is no way a lie could grow so big and last so long" (or something along those lines worded one way or another.

Once Joe got going, his ego grew with the church and those around him and he wasn't going to stop. I know Steve Benson has done at least one post about Joe's last days, not wearing garments and saying polygamy was wrong. So, maybe he realized he had bit off a bit more than he could chew. Maybe, if he had lived it may not have been so big. Who is to say.

All other church presidents know for a fact they are running a corporation and are covering one of the biggest lies in history. Just a fact. And they can not admit truth because they would lose a lot of people and money. They could, over time, shuffle their beliefs as new generations come and maybe even eventually dump the BoM saying god revealed to them it was no longer necessary, but they could never admit to it being all bullshit.

And as for hurting people - it does. TSCC tears families apart when one does not believe. They encourage divorce if a spouse falls away. They encourage shunning from children who do not believe. And the same goes if parents leave the church.

Mormons do not know how to deal with life outside the church. They have blinders on and can only do what they are told. Once the blinders are off, you can not have a rational conversation wtih any member. My phone conversations with my parents have gone from long and detailed to short and to the point. They don't know how to look at life outside the church or even relate to my family and I being happy and living a good life without the church in it.

Joe, Brigham, and all the rest have done a great job of burying their past as TSCC has progressed throughout the years. Even their unveiling so called original documents will be a washed version of church history, with all damaging evidence shuffled to back corners where no one is allowed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2011 12:47PM by nickerickson.

for anyone but himself.

Mohammed started a religion and it has a billion adherants. So if being big is a decider in something's truthfulness, then Islam must be true....(NOT!)

Or maybe Catholicism or Hinduism....(NOT!)

It started as a prank. But supersitious country folks took
him seriously. And a new church was born.

Joseph was delighted, had no choice but joined the church too.
He was still a Mason at heart, until the day he died.

And as time went by, seeing that people believed in him so
much, he introduce the tithing idea to make money for
himself. He was jobless then.

Polygamy, temple ordinances and later the first vision came
into play too.

Nope, JS wanted money, power and women... This was his ticket to that. Even before he started the church he was a con man using his "skills" to make money by divining the location of buried gold treasure.

He used the church to literally raise an army, try to declare himself king and had more wives (and probably unofficial "girlfriends") than any "man of god" had any right to.

Has the church done some good? I'm sure it has... somewhere... but usually the good it does is to try and get something in return. Any good that it "produces" comes from the people at the bottom trying to do their best to live the best way they know how, sadly those people will never have any real power in the church to do good beyond what influence they would have had without the church.

I don't believe the answer is black or white. I believe JS created the Church with good intentions, however, his intentions were based on bad information and belief.

As is the often the case when someone acquires new-found power and influence, he abused his for selfish reasons.

Since then, the Mormon Church has established it's own version of the Christian narrative which can be very attractive to certain people. I believe the Church's current leaders know it's not the absolute truth they claim it is, however, they believe the "good" it provides outweighs these lies. Unfortunately, those who are caught up in these lies do not recognize at what cost.

I think Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were definitely con men. Sidney Rigdon maybe, but mostly everyone else since has been a sincere believer. And I also think most people are fundamentally good, or at least have good intentions in the things that they do.

That said, the church started out with bad intentions, but has been getting "better" ever since. Better, of course, is a relative term. Ever since Joseph Smith died, aspects of the church have been created with good intentions. However, with the deceived leading the deceived, many bad results have ensued.

What we end up with is a church full of people with good intentions, and they validate themselves because of those good intentions. They don't realize, or are too afraid to admit, all the negative impacts of the religion, and/or pass them off as the imperfections of man.

One of my greatest epiphanies was realizing that the LDS church is bad, and it is improved by its fundamentally good members. It's not the other way around, as the church would have you believe.

I think it first began because Joseph Smith was essentially a lazy man and didn't want to work. From what I gather, his father was pretty shiftless, too. Joe hired out to neighboring farmers, and he stumbled upon well-digging and from that came money-digging, after he found his famous peep stone. His first con: convincing people that the peep stone was magic, and he could find treasure with it. When his efforts failed, he moved on to another gullible target. But his biggest achievement is that he trained himself to be a salesman. He didn't farm, he didn't work at a trade or a craft...he got by on his silver tongue.

Emma's father couldn't stand him. And after Joe and Emma got married, he mooched off his father-in-law. He was a consummate con man, and found that he needed to create a bigger and bigger con to keep the people entertained enough to support him.

When people wanted more information about his con, he discovered he could embellish his stories, and even give a HISTORY, therefore "proving" his authenticity. This explains the various versions of the "First Vision." He eventually started tripping over his own lies, and I think that led to the Book of Mormon, whereupon "facts" could be put down for all to read. He almost blew THAT plan when Lucy Harris hid the pages that Martin Harris brought home.

Ol' Joe discovered that with a big enough fan base, the lies could get wilder and more intricate. I think he probably reached a stage where he actually BELIEVED his own nonsense, and figured that every word which dripped from his precious lips was Gospel.

I don't think there were any good intentions anywhere along the line. I think it was a lazy young man who found that people would listen to his stories, and he didn't have to break his back or get his hands dirty.


~VOW

No, it most certainly was not. I don't have the reference in front of me, but there was a quote, where Joe had made the statement that "I have got them fixed now", bragging that he'd fooled his own family with his BS.
The BOM was nothing but plagiarism and Joe's made up tales.
None of that could have been done with good intentions.

Susan