Friends of mine (male 42+39) are gay and live together 12 years in Munich Germany. They are hard core atheists. Both have a Lutheran background. They are legally married and the missionaries know that. In Germany are being gay and gay marriages nothing special. It happens everywhere.
Missionaries had contacted them on a gas station and they had their first lesson on Tuesday and second on Friday in the couples’ home. They were envied to Church last Sunday and they went. The people in church were very nice and made them feel important.
After Church they had a nice talk to the missionaries and envied the missionaries for lunch in their home. The missionaries had asked them to get baptized. The 3rd lesson is supposedly tomorrow evening and the missionaries expect a positive answer.
Well - they going to go through with it, just for the heck of it. Arnold told me, that they will be not the one that refuses the Church. The Church has to refuse them.

Now I am confused. Has something changed in the Church? Since when does the LDS accept gay couples? I doubt that gay are welcome in church. Why does no one tell my friends that they can not be gay in church?

Your friends should press them for a specific answer about the official mormon opinion on homosexuals, homosexuals in the church, and gay marriage.

They will not be allowed to be baptised. They can still attend and pay tithes and offerings but it's my opinion they will never be baptised as a gay couple.

Who's going to reject them and how will it go down? Will the missionaries just quit showing up? Will some hot shot, self important, Utah missionary Zone Leader step in at the baptismal interview and call them to repentance?

Do the missionaries who are teaching them not know? Do they assume they are just roommates saving money on rent by living together? I imagine that actually teaching discussions is a rare treat for German Missionaries. They probably don't want to give up the easy numbers for their weekly report so they are pretending not to know.

Yup

Buddy Joe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Friends of mine (male 42+39) are gay and live
> together 12 years in Munich Germany. They are hard
> core atheists. Both have a Lutheran background.
> They are legally married and the missionaries know
> that. In Germany are being gay and gay marriages
> nothing special. It happens everywhere.
> Missionaries had contacted them on a gas station
> and they had their first lesson on Tuesday and
> second on Friday in the couples’ home. They were
> envied to Church last Sunday and they went. The
> people in church were very nice and made them feel
> important.
> After Church they had a nice talk to the
> missionaries and envied the missionaries for lunch
> in their home. The missionaries had asked them to
> get baptized. The 3rd lesson is supposedly
> tomorrow evening and the missionaries expect a
> positive answer.
> Well - they going to go through with it, just for
> the heck of it. Arnold told me, that they will be
> not the one that refuses the Church. The Church
> has to refuse them.
>
> Now I am confused. Has something changed in the
> Church? Since when does the LDS accept gay
> couples? I doubt that gay are welcome in church.
> Why does no one tell my friends that they can not
> be gay in church?

My understanding is that they can be "gay" but not act on their feelings as the teaching in mormonism is that "being gay"...physically is evil and will send you to hell.

...SO.......

They can "join" but not have a physical relationship (anymore)..
What's the point of living the mormon lifestyle never able to express and recieve affecftion from your Significant Other.

Now also factor in just have they will be looked at as men, but not preisthood holders as they will have no wife and no children..

It doesn't add up to me..

Even if they agreed to obstain from all physical affection, would TSCC allow them to remain married to one another? It would appear to be a contradiction to what the church requires elsewhere.

I also don't fully understand how they could be "hard core atheists" and join the Mormon church. That sounds like a contradiction in itself.

Of course they would still be married.

TSCC could tell them they can't be in a same sex marriage and be baptised.

I'm sure they'll be rejected. They'll need to swear off and repent of any gay sexual behavior. They'll also have to pass an interview with the mission president.

Exactly. That's a very specific question during the baptismal interview and you have to have already "repented" of your homosexual behavior and get a 2nd interview with a higher up. They might let them go to church but they won't be able to be baptised.

It won't be put in terms of "not being gay." It will be framed as obedience to the law of chastity. Baptism commitments are solicited well in advance of the more substantive (such as they are) lessons so that the missionaries can fall back on the commitments when the investigators start to get nervous about issues like tithing, chastity, the Word of Wisdom, etc.

I would think that if one of the Articles of Faith says something about honoring the laws of the land, and the law says that gays can legally marry, then the church is going to have to eat their words or let the couple be fully participatory. Just my thoughts...

I've wondered how the church will handle these types of situations. Technically, sex within marriage is perfectly fine, even a secular marriage. I haven't heard the churches stand on married gay couples... They are working very hard to not allow them to be legal in the first place, but once they are, what's the church going to do? State that while the marriage is "legal" but not recognized by the church? To me, that sounds like it opens dangerous territory because then that opens the door for the church to say that any marriage they don't like is no longer "valid"...

Has the church taken an *official* position on this?

This issue has a couple of problems attached to it.

First Issue:

Why weren't they told right up front the Church's position on GLBT couples?

This will definitely come up during the interview for permission to baptise. I can't imagine they'd go alone with it.

Second Issue:

This is a legally married gay couple. Now please tell me how this will work in a mormon setting?

a. They would have to renounce their relationship AND GET DIVORCED. They church does not recognize or allow gay unions.

b. They would each have to agree to live a future life of chastity and repent of past transgressions in order to be baptised. Since they are in an obvious gay union, according to the church they are living in sin, etc. etc. as long as they stay in that union.

I really don't see them getting divorced and this looks like a train wreck.

What's amazing is that this whole farce has gone as far as it has. I can't believe the missionaries have asked them to get baptised without explaining this means they will have to divorced. Wowza.

My friends told the missionaries from the beginning that they are atheist but would like to hear about Mormonism, as to speak from the horses’ mouth.
They were very surprised about the request to be baptized and they told the missionaries so. They told the missionaries that they liked the Church experience and that the people there seamed so harmonically and caring for each other.

Well they discussed this issue after the missionaries left and came to the conclusion that if the Church will accept them who they are, they will give Mormonism a try. Not because they all of a sudden believe in God or had received a sign that JS was a Prophet. They liked the people in Church and how the people cared for each other.

They told the missionaries that they had meditated (not prayed) over the BM and JS issue but could not feel anything so far.
The answer from the missionaries was that after baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit they would know and it would be like someone would turn the light on. So they shouldn’t be worry about it.
My friend phoned me and told me that it is not even close to that what I had told him about Mormonism. They would join the community even if they don’t believe a thing and it seams it would be no problem at all, when they were gay and if they believe or not.

Well – I left it right there and didn’t argue with them any further. But I asked myself
Is there not a Bishop interview before baptism?
Do they not at least have to believe in God and at least somewhat of a good outcome in believe about the BM and JS?

Do missionaries not have to report what they are doing and what is the advice in this case from their higher ups how to preside with this matter?

I don’t know but I think that it will be quiet an experience for my friends. I can’t believe that the Church can overlook the issues just to baptize someone.

PS:
If someone would see my friends you don’t need an explanation who they are. Their wedding picture (4 by 3 FT) hangs over the couch. They are really happily married no doubt. They are just wonderful people and I am proud to be allowed to call them friends.

1. No there is not a Bishop/Branch President interview anymore. That policy was changed a few years back. Only children of record that are 8 years old are interviewed by the Bishop/BP. The interview for anyone 9 years or older is generally done by the Zone Leader of the Mission or whoever the Mission President authorizes. They generally don't have the missionaries do it that are teaching, but they could if the MP allows them to. It really depends on the Mission President. Regardless, there are questions you are asked for baptism that you can't get around unless they aren't asked. This is frankly, pretty incredible, especially if your friends said they "meditated" and not "prayed." Un-flipping-real.

2. The do have to believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. They have to believe that each is a seperate entity and they have to understand the Law of Salvation.

3. Missionaries do not deal directly with the Bishop. They report to the Mission President, usually through District and Zone Leaders. They interface with the Bishop/Branch President, but its really controlled through the Mission President.

To me, this sounds like some serious dumbing down of the qualifications to join the mormon church. If your friends get baptized given what they believe the church is about, they are really in for a shock. This is an incredible story...

The old missionary couple just doesn't get it. They think they are just "room-mates". Or, they know they are gay and they think it will be no problem once they "have the spirit" to become un-gay. I feel sorry for the old geezer couple. Totally wasting their time!

One way to break through is to have one of these guys ask the missionaries about the temple and "what can me and my husband" expect when we go to the temple?

That ought to bring things to a head...

I don't know if Buddy Joe wants to go that route. These sound like really nice guys, but if this goes much further somebody is going to get hurt when the truth breaks out because for them to be together in the mormon church they have to a) divorce and b) promise to live a chaste life or c) marry the opposite sex.

I just don't see how its possible for a legally married gay couple to get baptized into the mormon church. Do you Buddy Joe? It's unreal...

My wife just talked to Erik about it an hour ago. My wife and Erik are closer than I. My wife was never a Mormon but had experienced Mormonism first hand through my family. It seams they think about Mormonism the same way as joining just any Church. You come and go as you pleased. When my wife told them that LDS are practically against homosexuals the answer was, well – may be in Utah but the Church here is different. Erik told my wife between the lines that she may hold something against the LDS because of private experiences with her in-laws.
This stopped any further conversation about this issue.
We know they get hurt but there is nothing we can do.
My wife said that she can understand that the missionaries went for the lessons. It’s in her opinion what missionaries do. But the question about baptizing shouldn’t come out before all facts are clear.

Lost said:
“I just don't see how its possible for a legally married gay couple to get baptized into the mormon church. Do you Buddy Joe? It's unreal...”
I’m not in LDS since a looooong time. Many things had changed since I left the Church, even things that are made for eternity. But still when I heard from Arnold his Mormon experience I was suspicious, because gay and LDS just seams to me not fitting together.

They get hurt and we know it, but there is nothing what we can do.

… and that they will have to cease, desist, and get divorced, until they get them dunked so they can add a “+2” to the membership roster. Because with TSCC, what counts is numbers, not people.

Hope your friends find out about this first; but in any case, let us know what happens, Buddy Joe.

in fact, they mention the law of chastity as being defined as having no sex with anyone who you are not legally and lawfully married to. These guys could honestly answer yes, and unless asked directly if they are gay, could get baptised. If the question is never asked, why would it be wrong for them to go through with it. Would be a great public relations story for sure.

Reminds me of the guy that pretended to be a woman in Utah, got married in the temple to a man, and then a little while later they found out he was a man and had him x'd. The paper and local news at the time did a story on him/her. I laughed my ass off, and I was TBM at the time.

KC, I'm afraid you and WiserWomanNow are right, but that is just frickin...wrong. Whatever happened to honesty?

Totally messed up because the missonaires know these guys are gay. But I'm sure the church and its super sale strategy figures that can get a few months tithing and hey who knows, maybe destroy yet another family in the process.

As to that story KC, ROFLMOA. That is hilarious. You'd think someone would figure out somethings wrong during the annointing process, lol. How did this person get an endowment as the wrong sex? They must have falsified the paperwork on that and only got married. OMG. Unreal.

There is no way any happily married gay "hard core" atheists are going to entertain joining the Mormon church. This sounds too far fetched to me (again). No offense.

I know mishies are desperate over there but receptive gay atheists? I'm sorry I just can't swallow it. Let's say this story is true, I still can't believe these missionaries would be so stupid to think their MP will allow these guys to get baptized.

They can pad their baptism numbers like normal missionaries - with homeless, mentally ill, and minors.

I will keep you in the loop no question. I thought to go to Munich Newspaper (Munich Merkur) after they get baptized. I’ll think that would be quiet a story that everyone will hear, especially the LDS/HLT German community.
Gay couple get accepted by LDS would be a Headline (I guess).
But I doubt that the church goes really through with it. My wife asked and said, what is it what they think in their twisted minds, that they accomplish. She said that even if our friends go to church without getting baptized, they will never be a part of it and will be rejected as soon as the last mummy in Church knows - gay are in the house.

Married gay atheist getting baptized into the LDS Church? Who are you kidding?

Perhaps, just perhaps this will call for a new and modern revelation. Perhaps not.

Don't recognize "gay" when they see it. Those guys can be so incredibly naive and socially clueless in a foreign culture.

"Oh, loooook Elder Clueless, these nice gentleman have a BEST BUDDY picture hanging over their couch! Isn't that lovely?"

Unless anyone has actually spelled things out for the mishies, I vote for the very real possibility that Elder Clueless and Elder Dipwad can't even discern what is right in front of their noses.

Interesting dilemna, though. Please return and report on the outcome.

;o)

Oh well –
Yea you right Europe is really a great area to live in. Everyone can live their lives as they like to and as long the neighbor is not affected.
You can live your religion or atheism as long you don’t force it to others.
There are some real issues that I don’t really like in Europe, but one thing is fore sure. Europeans have the freedom to life their lives as they please.
Back to homosexual. Homosexual couples rising adopted children too. Don’t you think that a child prefer to live in a loving family, caring loving ( no matter if male/male or female/female) than in foster care or in a institutional environment?
I’ll think that especially religious America should consider that homosexuals are not contagious and it is only a way of preferences in very private matters than in daily live function.
I never understood what it matters what people doing in their bedrooms and what it matters to others.
My experience with Mormonism? Well - wife beaters and cheaters and therefore liars go to Temple and loving caring gay families to hell. Does this make any sense?

PS: (where is the edit funktion?)

Just for example:
The Major of Berlin is Mr. Wowereit, a happy married homosexual.
The Vice Kanzler (President) of Germany until May 2011 was Guido Westerwelle. He is a Lutheran und is homosexual happy married since 15 Years.
No secrets. People are judged who they are, what they able of and not what they probably or not doing in their very private bedroom.
Are any persons in Church or here really that clean and non-questionable? Hello Mr. and Mrs. Allways-Right.

A lot of the times, the missionaries are very brief and dont talk about what is expected of people once they are baptised. When I was a missionary, when we taught the law of chastity, essentially all that we said was that sexual relationships were allowed only in a legal/lawful wedding. We didnt even mention masturbating, porn, gay relationships, etc. Its almost like we set the converts up to fail.