http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,295794

The Mormon Church teaches us that we are our genitals and are judged mostly by our management of them, including our worth, i.e., licked cupcake but not frosted tongue.

I mean no disrespect in asking this, OP, but do you feel a deep affection, love and appreciation for your wife as a person separate from your sexual connection, her good looks, etc?

If you cannot imagine life without this woman in it, then read on. If not, then cut your losses and get a divorce asap.

OK, since you are still reading, you BOTH have severe problems caused by immaturity (ok) and cult conditioning (not ok). She is just worse than you only because she is still in the cult and still believes their "you are your genitals" bullshit.

You are deluded into thinking that you must not "lie." Honey, you are already lying by omission by not confiding the size of your turds. The Mormon church teaches people to feel guilty constantly about the lying we all do in order to maintain our personal space and the social contract. When you walk by a woman whose boobs are bouncy, do you say out loud, "Would I ever like to have a mouth full of those." Of course not, it is socially unacceptable EVEN THOUGH IT IS THE TRUTH. Men do not choose these thoughts, they are hard-wired that way for the preservation of the species. It is not logical or willed. You do not say that when you are alone, you do not say it when you are with your spouse. So you are in a can't win situation by even thinking that your sexual thoughts should be shared when asked.

The idea that your thoughts are anybody's business but your own is a cult conditioning idea planted by the Morg to erode your individuality. When your wife grills you about masturbation and porn, she is acting like the Church (or worse, your mother). No wonder she isn't seeming that sexy...

Your wife will be putting on weight. Are you going to comment on that honestly, like, "You used to have a waist-- what happened?" Would you agree that would be both stupid and cruel? Men who stay married MANAGE their marriages. Women who stay married MANAGE their marriages. They never say, "You used to be so much harder, honey, what happened?" Part of the grown up marriage contract, between the lines, says, "I will grow old with you and we will not hurt each other unnecessarily over this unavoidable fact. Rather we will support each other."

Since you love your wife and want to keep her, you dump the idea immediately that your sex life inside your head is her business. In marriage there is shared territory and there is private territory. Otherwise, married people would never have unique personalities.

Sexual performance is intensely personal. It is not her territory. It is your completely private territory. You may choose to tell her about select areas, like what turns you on, that you think might excite her. Do not tell her you fantasize about animals (I picked something I'm fairly sure is not true just for an example) because it is a turnoff. Tell her that you need to masturbate because she is so exciting if you did not, you would not last. This is the advice in many sex manuals for young husbands. This is damage control to save your marriage and to save your future children from never being born. Willing to run in a burning building to save them? Keep your private sexual machinery private. If you do not do this, performance anxiety over what you are thinking could drive you to become impotent. Draw the line now while taking the WONDERFUL advice given above on being the best husband ever.

Now about her problems-- she has low self esteem all right because she has been taught that her value was in her virginity. Now that she is not a virgin and you have explored the territory, what would keep you from seeking new virgins to explore. Here are some practical solution to this anxiety, which cannot be resolved completely by reassurances. In addition to compliments on her appearance, save up memories of sexual times together and mention them during sex. What you should be talking about during sex is her body and/or places you have had sex and things you've done that you'd like to do again. This tells her what you are thinking.

When you talk about sex, use the word "fun" a lot, and start speaking woman-language. Women are about clothes, so talking dirty that includes outfits is great for insecure women (because they can always put that outfit on again or buy another one like it, whereas they worry that their XXX isn't so tight anymore, etc.) So instead of saying, "you were so hot and tight that night in Cancun" say, "That was so hot in Cancun when you kept the bikini on and we had sex in the chair." The chair and the bikini are still available.like, didn't we have fun that time in Cancun when we screwed with you still wearing that bikini?

Women are also into mystery. Romance and mystery are linked in women's minds, so saying "I could never figure out what it was exactly you did when you gave me that blow job in Cancun. You have some kind of special gift there, sweetie" is better than "What a hot blow job you gave me...." The first says to her that she has something special and the second says you like blow jobs. "Where did you learn that move? OMG?" is far better than "The kama sutra says the right knee goes over the left knee--was that better for you too?"

ROLE PLAYING. Once she starts relaxing a little, try Role playing. Pirate and captive, Cruella Deville and manservant, Beverly Hills housewife and pool boy, kidnapper and hostage. If this seems silly to you rather than sexy (there's a thin line), you could play the game where for a romantic weekend, she goes into a casino and you role play that you are picking her up at a slot machine and seducing her over dinner, culminating with great sex in the hotel.

SEX TOYS. Be careful with this because in her cult conditioning, she will ask you where they came from (spying for evil). Order the Solutions catalog, which is 99% kitchen, garden, and home accessories (which is why you ordered it- you liked the lawn chairs or ?) and 2% feminine pleasure devices. When it arrives, open it to the sex toy page and tell her you'd like to play around with these--that you think it would be sexy and fun to try. It's ok if she says no at first. You have planted the seed, which is, sex is supposed to be fun, not the Inquisition.

Every one of the good experiences you have become new material for you to make her feel that her sexual expressions, her movements, her utterances are uniquely exciting to you. By doing these things, you are addressing her licked cupcake mentality indirectly. When you are complimenting her on how sexy she looked at that wedding, add in a whisper, "Good thing they don't know what I know or every man there would be in line to dance with you."

Nobody wants to be reduced to just a penis or just a vagina. This is what Mormonism does to us and it is your mission, should you accept it, to show the woman you love that her vagina is just part of the wonderful unique person she is, and is only part of why you adore her.

Good luck

Anagrammy

Good advice!

wow, anagrammy

LOTS of wisdom (& experience ?) there 'eh?

Spot on! Do you do this professionally? I really wish someone had sat me down and told me this years ago.

Agram, I want to be your publisher--or at least your co-author....such wisdom..and right here on RFM for all to see; impressive.

Woman language indeed--

Muchas gracias,

LB

Seriously, have you considered writing a book... "Your Guide out of Mormonism, How to Enjoy Life, Respect Yourself, and Think on Your Own"... I'd buy it.

Actually I am thinking about writing a book called "Ask Anagrammy- Unmormon Your Thinking and Resuscitate Your Real Self"

You guys have been very encouraging. When I first started posting I didn't think I had anything to say other than don't do this, or don't do that.

There does seem to be a niche open for ideas on how to reconstitute yourself on the inside so that you don't continue your Mormon judgmental black-and-white thinking and lose your family and the few friends you might have left.

Thanks so much, all, for helping me to see this.

Anagrammy

So, what I am hearing from all the men that have weighed in on these two posts is---In the actual heat of things, the specific woman/vagina involved is basically insignificant?
No matter who you are having sex with your mind will wander to someone else? Is that right?

My goodness. I don't believe for a minute that most men feel that way. I would guess that they have a million thoughts while having sex, some of which would be about other people they would love to *do* and some would be about how wonderful intimacy is with the person they love most in the world. People are complex creatures!

Not looking for a fight. It's an honest question. I never think about anyone else during sex but the person I am with. Never. I just wondered if there were any men out there that are capable of that too. That's all.

anon for this Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not looking for a fight. It's an honest question.
> I never think about anyone else during sex but the
> person I am with. Never. I just wondered if there
> were any men out there that are capable of that
> too. That's all.

Here's the problem. When you start out suggesting that you're take is *all men,* when the heat of the moment don't care who they're with, that's painting with a pretty broad brush. It's bound to be seen as offensive.

And when you follow up with "just wondering if there were *any* men out there" who are as virtuous as you see yourself, that's problem number two.

Virtue doesn't play into it at all. It is about being in the moment with one chosen person. That's all.

You mean that it's about being in the moment with one's chosen person for you. For a lot of people, it's not necessarily that narrow.

Sex is more satisfying when you are in the moment with that person. This point is it is less satifying if you are worried and guitly about what else might pass through your mind. Love is more than an act of will.

First, I find myself EXTREMELY skeptical that you are being truthful about that, or it may just be that you have an odd definition of what constitutes a sexual fantasy. If you are being truthful, you are the exception, rather than the rule.

And as far as it goes whether or not men are "capable" of it... yes, we are, but don't expect it every single time. If you can't handle the thought that a partner of yours may not be thinking only of you EVERY SINGLE TIME, then you may not be cut out for sexual relationships on any level.

What you seem to find desireable is just not realistic, and is - on its surface - a rejection of the human condition.

Never. At all. Really. Really.
Sex is a connection. I connect only to the person I'm with.
Why is that so hard for you to believe?

And as I SAID in my previous posts, IF you are being truthful, you are the exception rather than the rule.

Why is it so difficult for you to NOT twist my posts into something I never effing said?

I;m also guessing that you've never had a sexual relationship that's continued for more than about 3 or 4 years. You wouldn't be so smug and self-satisfied about this if you have.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2011 06:05PM by helamonster.

Smug and self-satisfied???
Projection, much?
Attack???
Um...OK.
Whatever.

How would you feel about having sex with a woman that only thought of you during the act? In your book, would that not be a GOOD thing?

If anything, you are attacking me.
And yes, I am the exception.
It works quite well for me.
Get over it.

Sorry, but I won't let you get away with it.

If I were with a woman who only thought of me every single time we had sex, she would no doubt be a complete DUD in the sack. because unimaginative people make lousy lovers.

And I think you are deluding yourself about how well it works for you.

dud?
unimaginative?
deluded?
lousy?

Not by a long shot. : )

I was going to elaborate on it, but chose not to. I thought I wanted the kind of man that didn't think about anyone else, that didn't find straight porn stimulating, blah, blah, blah, blah, who didn't masturbate--you know, the pure mormon man (like those boring GAs who give talks at conference).

The thing I found is if I was in a relationship with a man who didn't do these things, then I was probably in a relationship with someone who had no sex drive, was gay, etc. Many of the women who I've talked to who are ex-wives of gays just thought their future husband was being respectful because he didn't want to touch them prior (or after) marriage--so mormonism plays all kinds of games with our minds.

When I got in a straight/straight sexual relationship (I already knew from dating him prior to marriage that I liked being DESIRED)--I still had hangups about the "one and only" and all that bullshit and I talked extensively to my therapist about it. What it comes down to--is I WANT SOMEONE who DESIRES women and all that goes along with that.

They set us up to ask the stupid questions this woman asks her husband. "Do you only think about me during sex?" I learned NOT to ask those questions. I also don't ask about past sexual partners, etc. I'm just so glad to be with a hot-blooded straight man--but the mormon mind fuck did a number on most of us.

Me--myself--nope, I don't fantasize about other men sexually, but I do attribute a lot of that to my mormon upbringing and also I am really good at compartmentalization or the ability to shut down thoughts or I never could have survived my life.

BUT when I say it, it is not to judge anyone else--it is just a fact. I am certain my boyfriend fantasizes about other women and I just don't give a shit, where I would have as a mormon (at least he is fantasizing about women and not men!!! like my ex was).

Same here - never. at all. Really.

I connect only to my partner at the time, and I'm fiercely monogamous. Right down to fantasizing about my partner during masturbation.

And my current relationship is at 10+years. My shortest one was 4 years. (I've had a whopping 4 relationships in my life). So your claim of "I bet you've never had a long relationship" is also false.


I don't disagree that it's perfectly fine for some people to fantasize about others - but I doubt that I'm that much of an exception. Really, truly don't.

The best thing to do when someone says something you disagree with, or find disgusting, or disturbing is to pretend they said something else, and then attack that.

Damn anagrammy! You did it again! You give the greatest advice!

I'm going to take (surprised?) another tack here:

What about Being with your S.O. / spouse? Isn't that why u got married (illusions set aside)?

I think sexuality... being emotionally and sexually exclusive... With spouse or S.O.. ... is Important.

I think there is some let-down in finding out that yr partner is doing themself or others... So, I reject the idea that your sexuality is PRIVATEly 'your own business'.

What about STDs? can't always prevent them, can we?


what about the (even if 0ld-Fashioned) celebacy thing? 'Staying True'?

this Clearly isn't one-sided, as anagrammy May have suggested.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2011 06:14PM by guynoirprivateeye.

Everyone is different. Some people don't have such wandering minds. Some do. But that doesn't make those with wandering minds inferior. An individual person doesn't derive worth from adherence to an ideal. And ideal is only worth something if it helps an individual person. People need to be able to know and talk about these things before they get married.

I don't believe your sexuality is your own business, I believe your thoughts are your own business.

Huge difference.

Also, let me add this. What you men say does make a huge difference. Once upon a time, my exhusband decided to be "honest" and proceeded to tell me intimate details of his sex life with his previous wife.

He told me details about her bodily functions that I had no interest in knowing and no right to know. It ruined our sex life. The scene he described in the bath tub? I was never able to be sexy with him in the tub again without thinking of her and wondering if he was thinking of her.

And the sex they had on the beach details. You got it - could not even go to the beach and enjoy it without thinking of him and her in a sleeping bag going at it.

Worse yet, I suddenly realized that he would be sharing all MY personal details with the next woman, that he did not understand that sex remains private even when you remarry. That did it.

From then on it was missionary position and nothing else. I went into menopause shortly thereafter and that was the last straw. Between the frigidity caused by my lack of trust that he would respect the confidence of my opening up sexually to him PLUS the hormonal downer of menopause and the sweating (I am sure he is telling all about that to his new girlfriend as I type this....)

A word to the wise.

Anagrammy

Good post. Thanks for your thoughts. Very sorry for the threadjack.

Anagrammy, I really hope you write a book--about anything! The wisdom combined with the writing style should not be wasted.

Anagrammy - You just rock....just rock....that was freakin' brillant..

One might as well try to go without defecating as to try not to fantasize during sex. I think it's funny that she does not own up to it, but natural, I guess, that she shouldn't want to own up to it. Most LDS women never admit to masturbating, but most or maybe all do. No LDS men admit to masturbating, but they ALL do.

My wife broke down about 10 years ago and felt she had to admit that she had fantasies during sex, but assured me that the men had no faces or anything. Like I cared. I hadn't thought of it until that point, that she might have fantasies, but I have since found out that it is a required part of sex when one is trying to concentrate and enjoy it. But when she admitted to it, she was actually afraid like it was something she had to go to the bishop about. You know Mormons, they're conscience goes in overtime, particularly about sex if not about business dealings. Thankfully she didn't go to the bishop, but she was scared.

Well anagrammy well done but…
This is the view of a woman. And yes you are right this is a very nice theoretical advise.
Would you perhaps recognize that man and women are different when its come to sex?

Well romantic is a nice thing and can be for both sides fulfilling. But show me the man that is always romantic were soft and not becoming impotent.
Man need also the poor sex without any strings attached. There are moments that man really don’t wanna talk a lot or don’t wanna explore and playing around. Period that is a fact. Yes this is the truth a man can have sex and 1 Minute later he sits in front of the TV and watches football without a second thought what just happen.
A Grman jocke will bescribe it: After a woman gave her husband a blow job he ask "How was I?".

Why is this so? It is because in a women world is everything related to an emotion. How do I feel about something? Does he still love me? Am I still attractive to him and many more things that a man not even can imagine?
Men are different.
Nature had created this, because it would not be so, the human race would be extinct since a long time.

I just think on I scenario. Man and wife 10 years married sitting on a nice table having dinner. Red wine, the light is right. It goes on for a long time. After a wile the man starting to think on something else. Yea the wine is good and it’s a nice talk, it’s romantic but hey how long should I be staying this way. You know the little man feel after a wile it is not even close something what interests him and goes to bed. And than the little man is gone. Like forever, not today anymore for sure or only with excessive force! Well Steve and little Steve have sometimes their little disagreements.

My Grandpa told me one. When women and man have to built a bridge over a river. The bridge bui;t by women will be very nice, had flowers, ornaments, different colors. A real good looking peace of work.
The mans bridge looks ugly is functional. No eye-catching moment on it.

The difference? Well - the men bridge is very useful. The bridge takes the load even of 10 semi trucks and the normal traffic.
The women bridge good looking can only used by pedestrians. During all the planning and emotional elements the usefulness had to be scarified to the look.

The truth is, men and women have to meet right in the middle.
I would describe a happy sex life in a marriage like a swing. It has to go both ways. How wide the swings are, that is to the couple to find out and depends on the couples imagination regardless if toys or clothes involved or not. It is not really important what you use, which technique is used. Important is that both partners “talk” about it.

So anagrammy and you girls. Now kill me.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2011 10:40PM by buddyjoe.

I got nothing re the main topic but re the bridge building I got somethin':

"The women bridge good looking can only used by pedestrians. During all the planning and emotional elements the usefulness had to be scarified to the look."

Do you want to try that again?

Women's emotions get in the way of practicality? Tell that to the thousands of female engineers worldwide who are designing structures every day that are managing not to fall down or be less useful than structures designed by males.

Maybe something got lost in the translation of that story. Or maybe it has timed out as the world has marched on since the story itself was constructed and told, by males it would seem.

Think about it. It's so original, it will draw so much curiosity because mass readers have no clue about cults (but are fascinated) and the term "intimacy" which every adult has questions about.

I bet any editor would scoop this up. It's amazing, strange, so American. Run with this.

I have a Strong Feeling it wasn't about bridges...