Part one:
http://youtu.be/sD9f0XU_S78



Part two:
http://youtu.be/A_E0vfP79yE

Part three:
http://youtu.be/pyXIeB1qI6w



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2011 11:35AM by wine country girl.

Eh, this movie has a name, and it's "Zeitgeist." It's very inaccurate at times.

Don't get me wrong, I think all organized religion is unnecessary, but this movie is misleading at times.

But I think in the end, our myths are what make us human. We like our stories. We make sense of things through our stories. But to live and die by our stories and to make religion of them, that's a whole other matter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2011 11:33AM by wine country girl.

Well not just that. Some of the claims it makes about the parallels between Christianity and ancient religions are flat out lies.

Apply the same scrutiny to this movie as you would Mormonism, and you'll see what I mean.

greekgod wrote:

"Some of the claims it makes about the parallels between Christianity and ancient religions are flat out lies"

Apply the same scrutiny and critical thinking to christianity as you did mormonism and see if the result is not the same.

Christianity hasn't a leg to stand on.

Timothy

If you read carefully you would know that I do not support organized religion. More specifically, I am not a Christian or any religion.

I already have applied scrutiny to Christianity and find it to be a false religion. Please don't assume so quickly next time.

Again, greekgod wrote:

"Some of the claims it makes about the parallels between Christianity and ancient religions are flat out lies."

Again, I ask "In what way?"

Next time, try to focus on the question I asked, not the one you think I should have asked.

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2011 03:22PM by Timothy.

The movie "Zeitgeist" is a three-part (soon to be four) movie spawned by the independent filmmaker Peter Joseph. It's chalk-full of conspiracies and caters to the new age movement. From my observation of it, it takes many historical truths and adds speculation, exaggeration, or just plain falsehoods.

The very beginning makes large general sweeping accusations of the parallels between religions and Christianity, specifically starting with ancient Egypt. All you need to do to disprove many these claims is spend a mere 10 minutes doing independent research and realize they are without merit. It's obvious. You don't need me to explain it to you.

But I will anyways. At least try to.

First of all, where does Zeitgeist get support for it's views on religion? From a woman known as "Acharya S." or D.M. Murdock. You can confirm this by visiting these two sources:

http://freethoughtnation.com/contributing-writers/63-acharya-s/376-zeitgeist-sourcebook-part-1-the-greatest-story-ever-told.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S

On further inspection, it has been suggested that Acharya has derived her views from another Christ-myther, Gerald Massey. You can compare and contrast the Zeitgeist claims with those of Gerald Massey by looking at Gerald's wikipedia page.

This from Wikipedia:

At the same time, most contemporary Egyptologists believe these parallels are not true and pseudo-scientific[6][7][8][9][10][11]. In particular they point out that, among the sourses make no mention of these facts in the life of Horus, and the celebration of Jesus' birth on December 25 was chosen for political reasons and was never claimed to be the actual date of his birth.[9]. However, W. Ward Gasque conducted a world-wide pole of twenty leading Egyptologists - including Professor Kenneth Kitchen of the University of Liverpool and Ron Leprohan, Professor of Egyptology at the University of Toronto- in Canada, USA, UK, Australia, Germany, and Austria to verify if there was any academic support for these claims. The scholars were unanimous in dismissing the claimed parallels. One scholar, who called it "fringe nonsense", also cautioned that "[e]gyptology has the unenviable distinction of being one of those disciplines that almost anyone can lay claim to, and the unfortunate distinction of being probably the one most beleaguered by false prophets."[12]. (Wikipedia, Gerald Massey)

Notice all of the sources cited. They can be your reference point if you wish to delve further.

Zeitgeist claims that Horus was:

*born of the virgin Isis-Meri in December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.

*His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph").

*He was of royal descent.

*At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.

*Was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iaurutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" (John the Baptist) who was decapitated.

*He ad 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "AAn" (the two "Johns").

*He performed miracles, exorcized demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris") from the dead.

*Horus walked on water.

*His personal epithet was "Iusa" the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was called the "Holy Child."

*He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."

*Horus was transfigured on the Mount.

*He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, was resurrected.

*Titles: Way, the Truth the Light; Messiah; God's Anointed Son; Son of Man; Good Shepherd; Lamb of God; Word made flesh; Word of Truth.

*Was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.

*He came to fulfill the Law.

*Was called "the KRST" or "Anointed One."

*Was supposed to reign one thousand years.

Just looking at that list your bullshit alarm should be ringing.
And for good measure.

Go ahead and examine Horus and his history. There are parallels for sure, but to that extent and specificity? No.

There are plenty of online sources to confirm this, or just go to the library and find yourself a copy of The Encyclopedia of Religion and start doing some research.

More on Zeitgeist found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist:_The_Movie

My belief on Jesus was that he was a real man, but JUST a man. Just like Joseph Smith was JUST a man, and not a prophet. But real nonetheless. COULD have ancient Egyptian religions as well as other ancient traditions led to the creation of the Christian myth that Jesus was the Son of God? Certainly. But it is one thing to say "They influenced the development of the myths of Christianity" and then to take it a step further by polluting the rich history of these ancient traditions with made up "facts" without any references.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2011 04:23PM by greekgod.

I made no claim.

Do you really expect folks in this forum to take anyone at his or her word?

If you can't dazzle 'em, baffle 'em, eh?

Timothy

Well, if you wish to be educated on the subject at hand, you can certainly start with what I've provided you, at your request.

Cut and paste from Wikipedia articles is hardly what I call reliable research.

greekgod wrote:

"My belief on Jesus was that he was a real man, but JUST a man."

What is your "belief" based on? ... My "research" says there isn't a single shred of viable evidence that even remotely suggests the existence of a divine JuHEEsus and even less that points to the existence of a non-divine JuHEEsus from whom the legendary JuHEEsus of biblical fable was concocted.

Such "research" tends to suggest that similar fairy tales of other cultures led to the construction of divine JuHEEsus. The details surrounding the Star Wars saga are of considerable variance, but its still Hamlet. What makes the JuHEEsus myth so unique that it must be considered an original work?

"COULD have ancient Egyptian religions as well as other ancient traditions led to the creation of the Christian myth that Jesus was the Son of God? Certainly. But it is one thing to say "They influenced the development of the myths of Christianity" and then to take it a step further by polluting the rich history of these ancient traditions with made up "facts" without any references."

My point exactly. Wouldn't want to cloud the issue with facts. Always tends to expose the fable and foil the apologist.

Timothy



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 10:18AM by Timothy.

If you don't trust Wiki, find a good basic mythology book such as Robert Graves, Gayley or Bullfinch for starts. Libraries are full of them. They will back up what Greek God said.Zeitgeist's versions of the myths have a lot of disinformation in them and you will discover that if you care to do the research.

Chadwick and others provide more accurate info.

You and greekgod rely on those with career interests.

That's not the truth.

Timothy

Whatever.We will talk when you have actually done some research.

You've done no research.

Timothy

I figured as much.

"My point exactly. Wouldn't want to cloud the issue with facts. Always tends to expose the fable and foil the apologist."

Sorry, but are you telling me that "Zeitgeist" is completely factual in it's interpretation of the Christian mythology? Additionally, you use of the word "apologist" is disconcerting. To imply I am an apologist of sorts is incorrect. Rather, you would be the apologist for Zeitgeist. Perhaps this is just a misreading on my part.

Also, who is this "Chadwick" you reference? I'd like to look into this. See, I'm actually interested in learning.

As far as career interests, it makes me laugh when taking that comment and applying it to those involved in the creation and proliferation of Zeitgeist. It fits quite well, honestly.

Finally, you are asking for evidence. Evidence of what, specifically? We give you resources and you shoot them down. So what criteria are you looking for? As far as wikipedia, it cross-references. That's was the point of my post. If those cross-references are not sufficient for you (and I could perfectly understand that) then perhaps I should try harder. I'd submit to that. But you've provided me with no means as to doubt my position.

All of the bible?

From what I have read, the videos are far more factual than the bible is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 10:36PM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All of the bible?
>
> From what I have read, the videos are far more
> factual than the bible is.

And what exactly, MJ, have your read that backs up the videos? Gerald Massey? Edward Carpenter? John Allegro? Gandy and Freke? Acharaya S.? Are these the books you have read?


What are the books that back up your claim that the videos are a factual interpretation of Christian Mythology?

You can't really expect to apply the same standard of evidence to the existence of Jesus of Nazareth as you would to a modern person. The quality of evidence for ancient history simply isn't as good. Archaeology does all right, but it's trying to establish culture and life patterns, not the existence of historic personages.

Agreed. Zeitgesit is full of inaccuracies and lies. That doesn't make Christianity true, but Zeitgest is far from anything resembling scholarship. I wouldn't use it as a source.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2011 06:07PM by bona dea.

I wish the video was accurate and didn't have an agenda. The idea is an interesting one.

Well, that was enlightening.

I never thought I could feel more like an ass than leaving the morg. I do now for the christian thing is bunk, and I turned atheist before I saw this...It only confirms that I am happy with religion out of my entire life. Thanks

While this is entertaining, I have some skepticism about it. For example, they link the words Sun and Son. But I doubt the etymology is linked in the original languages from which the myths/astrology derive.

Since the Latin and Greek words for sun and son are not anything alike, that is a very good example of the 'scholarship' of this movie. Use those critical thinking skills and check sources.Latin: son is filius and sun is sol. Greek son is gnios and sun is helios. Not much similarity there. Typical Zeitgeist.

LOVED IT!

Loved it too. And it is a fact that many cultures worship the sun as a god, and many cultures worship a "son of god". Of course the fact that the words son and sun are similar in Germanic languages has nothing to do with that. But the religions are there.

BTW, I can recommend this youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup?blend=1&ob=4#p/u

Especially the videos on open-mindedness and evolution:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vss1VKN2rf8&feature=relmfu

For all of the 'critical thinkers' who know nothing about mythology and who take 'Zeitgeist' as the ultimate authority on the subject, you might want to check out this link. http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/zeitgeist-refuted/.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 04:08PM by bona dea.

Glad I'm not alone in this. Thanks bona dea.

I appreciate having some support too. It is nice when someone actually knows something about the subject.Zeitgeist is not accurate and is certainly not scholarship. We will never convince those who desprately want to believe it though.

There are many parallels between Christian myths and older pagan myths. But some of the particulars are often exaggerated for effect. For example the Horus born of virgin Isis myth is commonly accepted as wrong, and the majority of Egyptian myth experts accept that those in that time believed that Horus came from a rock fully formed.

This website is more honest in it's analysis:
http://www.pocm.info/getting_started_pocm.html

Just bother POV.

I think that much of Christian mythology was modified from older myths, but some myths (like Mormonism) modified Christian mythos too. I think the best analyses attend very carefully to what myths come before, and occurred in spatial proximity to, others.

HH =)

Neither greekgod or I am denying that parallels exist-just not nearly as many as Zeitgeist would have us believe.The producers are either ignorant of the subject, or worse, making stuff up.Either way, it is not impressive and it is not scholarship.

Zeitgeist clearly has an agenda.

The parallel I found most interesting when I read about Antiquity was that of the Roman soldier's religion of Mithras. So little is known of it, but it was pervasive among the common foot soldier.

"Horus was born on December 25th"

small problem there folks:

they weren't using the same (anything like) our calendar!

How there can be such glaring problems, contradictions, immorality, etc. in the bible yet people still insist that it has such great value as a moral guide.

Then something like this gets nitpicked and thus rejected.

Can anyone say double standard?

Sure, just so long as you aren't accusing me of doing so =)

the bible doesn't say that Christ was born on 12/25, does it?

that 'claim' was little more than a spurious jab.
Where, I ask, did the producer get that Horus was born 12/25?

cheap shots make a noise, but after the noise is gone, there's no substance left.


Christians... I don't know of anyone that claims that Christ was born on 12/25 (or, in the month of December, I guess). The date is irrelevant.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 10:25PM by guynoirprivateeye.

But walked on water, healed the sick, yadda, yadda, yadda,

The bible also said god rewarded Lot for, among other things, offering his daughters up for rape.

The bible also says that disobedient kids should be stoned to death.

The list of atrocities goes on and on, and yes the OT IS PART OF THE BIBLE.

God is responsible for millions of deaths and untold suffering according to the bible.

But all you can come up with is the 25th date?

Seriously?

But thanks for making my point. The atrocities, contradictions, and flat out falsehoods in the bible are ignored while people quibble about a date.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 10:32PM by MJ.