I am a non-believing member, yet I have difficulty in understanding occurences like the one stated below. Does anyone think this actually happened, or that it was a figment of Zina's imagination? (Note that it was witnessed by a little girl as well).


http://lds.org/ensign/1984/03/great-grandmother-zina-a-more-personal-portrait?lang=eng&query=zina+d.h.+Young

"Zina’s record reveals that her knowledge of spiritual things was never secondhand. Immediately following her baptism, she received the gift of tongues, a gift of the Spirit that she used on occasion throughout her life. And, as her patriarchal blessing promised, she witnessed the ministering of angels:
“On one occasion I saw angels clothed in white walking upon the [Kirtland] temple. It was during one of our monthly meetings, when the saints were in the temple worshipping. A little girl came to my door and in wonder called me out, exclaiming, ‘The meeting is on the top of the meetinghouse!’ I went to the door, and there I saw on the temple angels clothed in white covering the roof from end to end. They seemed to be walking to and fro. … I realized that they were not mortal men. … This was in broad daylight in the afternoon. …"

About Zina.

The elite women of the church would speak in tongues while another of them would translate in song. They met often and did this often.

I'd be a bit suspect of anyone who participated in such activities.

I also found from reading the book that the women who were the elite polygamous wives took great pride in their "callings." They weren't the ones who suffered because of polygamy. I just realized that many of them were more like "attention whores."

Zina made some astounding remarks about polygamy that Todd Compton put in that book. Todd Compton is still a mormon and wrote that book in terms of being a believer. I was beyond shocked by it.

Zina was no one to look up to or believe she saw or did anything of value (in my humble opinion). I think she made it all up.

People in those days tended to make vision claims quite easily. Whether or not they actually saw anything is another point entirely. It's possible that they just imagined something and when they pictured it in their mind, they declared it to be a "vision." The witnesses to the Book of Mormon basically did this. They saw with their "spiritual eyes" and then talked about what they pictured in their minds as though it really happened.

Right now, I'm picturing in my mind a tall angel in glowing white robes. He's standing next to a bright red '57 Chevy on the shoulder of an empty desert road. He's holding something round and shiny with his two hands. He lifts it up to show me. It's a hubcap that says "Holiness to the Lord."

If you can picture anything in your mind at all while reading the description above, you can call it a vision. Then you can just pretend that it's real, if you believe the picture in your mind came from God and not just your imagination.

Remember how Joseph Smith claimed to have gotten a "revelation" from his magic rock, telling him to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon in Canada? Well, when they failed to sell the copyright, he got another "revelation" in his rock, telling him that some revelations were from God, some were from the Devil and some were just from his own mind. I suspect Joe knew all along that he was just making stuff up. But his gullible followers apparently needed a lesson on how tricky "revelations" can be. With people of that mindset, "visions" are pretty much the same thing.

I suppose, of course, that it could be possible that she really saw something. But then we have to ask ourselves what, if anything, that means for those of us who didn't see it. It doesn't mean the Church is true. People in other religions claim to have visions too. Are they liars because they aren't Mormons.

As for the gift of tongues, I've seen a number of holy-roller types demonstrating the "gift of tongues." Believe me, you've never seen anything so ridiculous. Pure gibberish. But they insist it's the language of the spirit and of angels. All I can say to that is: "Glibbeldy arikarikari gababababa goo goo goo!"

Gorspel Dacktrin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People in those days tended to make vision claims
> quite easily. Whether or not they actually saw
> anything is another point entirely. It's possible
> that they just imagined something and when they
> pictured it in their mind, they declared it to be
> a "vision." The witnesses to the Book of Mormon
> basically did this. They saw with their
> "spiritual eyes" and then talked about what they
> pictured in their minds as though it really
> happened.
>
> Right now, I'm picturing in my mind a tall angel
> in glowing white robes. He's standing next to a
> bright red '57 Chevy on the shoulder of an empty
> desert road. He's holding something round and
> shiny with his two hands. He lifts it up to show
> me. It's a hubcap that says "Holiness to the
> Lord."
>
> If you can picture anything in your mind at all
> while reading the description above, you can call
> it a vision. Then you can just pretend that it's
> real, if you believe the picture in your mind came
> from God and not just your imagination.
>
> Remember how Joseph Smith claimed to have gotten a
> "revelation" from his magic rock, telling him to
> sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon in
> Canada? Well, when they failed to sell the
> copyright, he got another "revelation" in his
> rock, telling him that some revelations were from
> God, some were from the Devil and some were just
> from his own mind. I suspect Joe knew all along
> that he was just making stuff up. But his
> gullible followers apparently needed a lesson on
> how tricky "revelations" can be. With people of
> that mindset, "visions" are pretty much the same
> thing.
>
> I suppose, of course, that it could be possible
> that she really saw something. But then we have
> to ask ourselves what, if anything, that means for
> those of us who didn't see it. It doesn't mean
> the Church is true. People in other religions
> claim to have visions too. Are they liars because
> they aren't Mormons.
>
> As for the gift of tongues, I've seen a number of
> holy-roller types demonstrating the "gift of
> tongues." Believe me, you've never seen anything
> so ridiculous. Pure gibberish. But they insist
> it's the language of the spirit and of angels.
> All I can say to that is: "Glibbeldy arikarikari
> gababababa goo goo goo!"


This is so true. You can absolutely do that to yourself and be convinced that it's real. After being given a blessing before a long trip, I imagined in my mind these two angel ladies flying over top of the car, having a joyous time and laughing up there. I felt comforted by them and told my friend the story, laughing. She said how cool it was that they'd been with me and were having so much fun. Something of my imagination became real to us.

Another time, I'd been given a blessing of protection and imagined in my mind a warrior angel, named Gabriel (not that Gabriel), in a white robe, holding a sword, blocking the way from anything evil getting to me. The same friend and I were convinced that it was real. She would often ask me to describe him again. I can still picture him in my mind, many years later.

So yes, one can absolutely receive a suggestion in say, a blessing, or from the words of a friend, and imagine that what your brain conjures up is real. Now I understand that my brain just took the suggestion and ran with it.

Plus, you know the whole cult paradigm is set up on spiritual one-up-manship. It's a competition to see who is the most spiritual. I see no difference in bragging about visions as compared to modern day FAT meetings in which attention whores get up to brag about promptings of the spirit. Same attention / status seeking behavior.

Yes, yes I can explain Zina's angel sightings.

Zina was a religious NUT.

Next question?


By the way, if anyone were to stand up in Testimony Meeting and say they saw white-robed angels walking about on top of the temple in broad daylight they would be assumed to be nuts. The leadership would make sure to NEVER call them to be a Gospel Doctrine teacher. And try talking in tongues at an LDS service these days--I dare you.


Times have changed. People used to eat up stuff like this in times past. I could find all kinds of "visions" that Mormons reported back then. Most of them would be considered embarrassing. Like the steamboat that flew over Nauvoo in broad daylight.

The fact that Joseph chose Martin Harris, David Whitmer, and Oliver Cowdery as the three witnesses who saw the angel makes more sense if you realize that all three of them had reported having had visions before.

People had visions back then. Now days they see UFOs or channel 35,000 year old warriors who are filled with wisdom etc. Fashions regarding delusions change with time, but delusion doesn't.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 04:55AM by baura.

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Times have changed. People used to eat up stuff
> like this in times past. I could find all kinds
> of "visions" that Mormons reported back then.
> Most of them would be considered embarrassing.
> Like the steamboat that flew over Nauvoo in broad
> daylight.

Can you show me the reference for that? I've never heard that FPR.

imalive Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> baura Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Times have changed. People used to eat up
> stuff
> > like this in times past. I could find all
> kinds
> > of "visions" that Mormons reported back then.
> > Most of them would be considered embarrassing.
> > Like the steamboat that flew over Nauvoo in
> broad
> > daylight.
>
> Can you show me the reference for that? I've
> never heard that FPR.

It was from the journal of an early Mormon named John Pulsipher:

"One pleasant day in March, while I was at work in the woods, about one mile from the
Temple, ... there was a steamboat past [sic] over Kirtland in the air! ... It passed right along
and soon went out of our hearing. When it got down to the city it was seen by a number of
persons.... Old Elder Beamon, who had died a few months before was seen standing in the
bow of the Boat.... The boat went steady along over the city passed right over the Temple
and went out of sight to the west!" ("John Pulsipher Journal," as quoted in Conflict at
Kirtland, p.331).

Yes, it was Kirtland and not Nauvoo as I originally said. You can read Pulsipher's journal here:

http://www.softcom.net/users/paulandsteph/zp/john.html

The passage in question is about 10% if the way down the page:

"Signs and wonders were seen and heard which caused the Saints to rejoice. One pleasant day in March, while I was at work in the woods, about one mile from the Temple, with father, Elias Pulsipher and Jesse Baker, there was a steamboat past over Kirtland in the air! It was a clear, sunshine day. When we first heard the distant noise, we all stopped work. We listened and wondered what it could be. As it drew nearer, we heard the puffing of a steamboat, intermingled with the sound of many wagons rattling over a rough stony road. We all listened with wonder but could not see what it was. It seemed to pass right over our heads; we all heard the sound of a steamboat as plain as we ever did in our lives. It passed right along and soon went out of our hearing. When it got down to the city it was seen by a number of persons. It was a large fine and beautiful boat, painted in the finest style. It was filled with people. All seemed full of joy. Old Elder Beamon, who had died a few months before was seen standing in the bow of the boat swinging his hat and singing a well known hymn. The boat went steady along over the city, passed right over the Temple and went out of sight to the west! This wonderful sight encouraged the Saints because they knew the Lord had not forgotten them. The people of Kirtland who saw the steamboat in the air said as it arrived over the Temple a part of it broke off and turned black and went north and was soon out of sight, while the boat, all in perfect shape, went to the west more beautiful and pure than before."

Notice that Pulsipher claims that many people in Kirtland saw it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 01:03PM by baura.

His death in this life was sad, but he moved on to bigger and better things--piloting UFOs. Don't matter whether the UFO looks like a saucer or a steamboat, it's still great fun for the whole family! ;o)

I have watched people who say they have the gift of tongues "commune with Jesus" while someone translated for them. Pentacostals, not Mormons.

Someone asked me afterwards if I didn't think that was just the most amazing thing, and didn't it feel so holy? And I said that you certainly could find whatever you were looking for in it. I saw falseness; they saw the hand of God.

This was a 'thing' for awhile in this church; small groups of women meeting in other womens' homes. They prayed before and after. There were snacks. They got out of the house, the husbands stayed home and watched the kids. They felt important, and they had a "right" to this time--it was religious worship, after all.

I suppose it would have been the same for Zina and her minions. They saw what they wanted to see. They got what they wanted out of it.

On stuff like this I never take another person's word for it.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but we have no idea for the person's mental or physical condition. Had she just eaten the wrong kind of mushroom? Had she partaken of 'mild drinks' or too much sacramental wine? Was she having a hormonal episode? Was she saying stuff to curry favour and status from her group? Was she trying to outdo her philandering (polygamous) husband? Did the witness just agree with what Zina told her she should be seeing? Did she see an Angel? Only she knows.

I haven't seen angels.
No one has evidenced (other than verbally) that angels exist.
Until either of those things happen I must conclude that they don't exist, at least for me.
That's all I can say.

...is it more likely something miraculous happened or that someone made it up? I mean, really, knowing what we do about human nature and all. If JS could have made up the story of the first vision, then why should anyone believe Zina?

In the 1800s it was common for people to claim visions and such especially as part of their "conversion process" to a new religion. This was stated in one of the books I read, I think B.H. Roberts, "Book of Mormon Studies", IIRC.

Additionally I think there was alot of hemp smoking going on. Mushroom use, bad moonshine, etc. These people were country bumpkin hillbilly types, you'd be on thin ice to just believe them, especially about something like seeing an angel.

I am sure that I read that during the last temple dedication in Utard a few visions of Nephite warriors and sightings of Jesus himself were reported.

When I was on my Mission in Logan Ut I read a book about the "miracles" of the Logan Temple. It was 200 plus pages of bullshit about prophets, apostles, and the leadership in the temple seeing visions in the Temple. There were stories from the prophet and temple president swearing that the devil and all the host of hell had come right through the main street in cash valley with demons and weapons and chariots and they watched them with an army of unimaginable numbers marching right up the mountain to the Logan temple. Now that's a vision right there!!!! Puts Zina's angel on a rooftop vision in the newbie league. Of course, you are now able to hear or read about just about every Temple Presidents visions in Mormon folklore and publications. Google is your friend.

What do you see if you dedicate all you have emotionally, physically, and financially to a cause...?

You visualize everything in your mind and we do not see the world around us accurately anyway. Our brains can only interpret what we see with our eyes....and attempt to put together a story.

If you have 2 minutes watch this video for a demonstration of how our brain does this.
link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvVfcyVCdNA

Intensity of commitment and concentration can create results in the function of the brain. Athletes in training for extreem competition can recall amazing amounts of information and SEE the actual performance of the task they are about to attempt....this is called visualization. It is a powerfull tool of the mind to survive in an intense situation where you want to accomplish a goal.....or just want to survive.

If Joe had real talent he could have pulled off some magical stuff like this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlCZ3VmMaf4&feature=related

But if he just had half of that guys talent he could get a couple of close associates to see the visions they saw with little effort. It is NOT that hard to trick our minds.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 11:42AM by upsidedown.

These type of things were not unique to the Mormons. Religious nuts see all types of things.

I even have a picture of it somewhere if you don't believe me. I can't find it now, but my brother has seen the picture, he'll tell you it's true.

The guy who caught it wouldn't show it to me. He said that if you look at a Martian fish, it will kill you. So he had it all wrapped up nice and safe. But he let me heft it and handle it in the wrappings. It weighed the same as a fish, so it had to have been a Martian fish. You can't heft and handle something if it doesn't exist, right?

Of this I do bear testimony with every fiber of my bean.

There are *pictures*, people! Pictures! ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottingley_Fairies

If they were hefted and handled, they had to have been real. There's no point in questioning it. As the LDS.ORG website says: "You can't heft and handle something that doesn't exist."

I personally think that Elsie and Frances hefted and handled those fairies. It could be that Elsie did the hefting and Frances did the handling or maybe the other way around. But at the end of the day there was a lot of fairy-hefting and fairy-handling and that's how we know that they weren't just cardboard cutouts.


;o)

She also accepted Joe Smith as his "spiritual wife." I think women he married did this out of faith or for other reasons, and having read about Zina I believe it was her faith that made her do these things.

BTW, Mary was a very nice and funny lady.

http://www.heraldextra.com/lifestyles/announcements/obituaries/article_cce967e7-08dd-5b63-a6a1-8fbb0061c40e.html

Her and her first husband Ed Sr. had our family over every Christmas to give us gifts. She also considered my father like a son. My dad has benefited from the kindness many as the "lost boy" of Rulon Jeffs.

Mary was a good person - just deluded like her great grandmother by "The Prophets."

Note that she is part of Zina's claim, just as the angels were...

Witness, my Aunt Sadie...

I'm attaching a link to a great article about Joseph Smith and the use of hallucinogens. It's hard to know for sure if these claims are true, but as you'll read, the suspicion was present even back then. To me, it only makes sense that many early members of the church were unknowingly given medicated wine during the sacrament. How else would the early church produce so many members who were so unwavering in their conviction of heavenly manifestations?

Place yourself in their shoes for a moment. Imagine that you went to a religious meeting based on the word of a charismatic and likeable leader. Then that leader tells you the heavens are opened again and you can experience this for yourself. When you later celebrate communion together and you subsequently witness heavenly visions. For the uninformed, this would seem very compelling evidence.

http://www.i4m.com/think/history/holy-ghost.htm

Sometimes in a group vision. It's the same type of thing as Zina's supposed visions.

Several books out now on angelic visitors.
Try "Heaven is for Real", by "Todd Burpo" (regarding his 4 yr. old sons' experiences); and
Akiane Kramarik (who at 8 hrs. old, drew a remarkable pictue of Jesus as she, repeatedle, saw him).

Convincing stuff.
Draw your own conclusions.

Akiane K. was 8 years old (not hours).
Her parents were atheists, until Akiane began having her experiences.

In Salem it was Ergot fungus...? Or maybe she was just insane or perhaps needed attention and told an f...n lie.

But that seemed to be a pretty typical and accepted occurance back then. With that being said, I want to know this...why aren't there angels that gather on top of temples today??? Is it because all the excitement of the gospel being restored has died down? Since TSCC has been here for what-200 and something years now, the restored gospel is just old news for all the angels in heaven? ha!