Isn't singing hymns of praise at church a form of worship? When we sing "Praise God from whom all blessings flow" is that worshiping God? What about when we sing "Praise to the Lord, the Almighty," isn't that clearly and obviously worshiping the Lord?

Then isn't "Praise to the Man" worshiping Joseph Smith? Isn't it clear that Mormons directly worship Joseph Smith in their churches? Isn't the claim "We don't worship Joseph Smith" easily disprovable by a look in the hymnal?

Nonmo churches do consider singing hymns as "worship."

Everything in a worship service is included in the word. In addition to prayers, that might also be the songs, any kneeling or swaying, affirmations, amens, candles, bowed heads, sacrament and talks/sermons.

I have not heard a more depressing sound than a Mormon congregation singing a sacrament hymn. Isolated wards may be like choirs, but for the most part it's dire.

That's a good point, I had nevert thought of it that way.
Thanks

Mormonism / ChurchCo has diluted & reduced all forms of worship, reduced them to "obedience"; a lot short of Love for God & Neighbor.

to Christians, if they Fully knew & understood, THAT would be why Mormons shouldn't be considered part of the fold...


just sayin'

Can Mormons really dilute all forms of worship when there are literally innumerable forms of worship?

I don't see any reason to give Mormons that much power over forms of worship.

And it is just as valid as the worship any church performs toward any being.

Also, the word "worship" is a very ambiguous word. There are literally dozens of things that you, me, and everybody else worships on a daily basis.

Besides that, most people, when talking about songs and such, use the word "venerate." I bet that if self righteous bigoted Christians used the phrase "Mormons venerate Joseph Smith" rather than "they worship him," they wouldn't get their hypocritical self-righteous panties in a bunch.

Instead, sadly, they try to find as many ways to hate Mormons as possible. In fact, it could be easily argued that they worship the idea that they are somehow inherently better than Mormons.

I know of no other Christian church besides the Mormons that regularly sings hymns praising any mortal. When it's an official part of the worship service then it's definitely more than just "veneration." Mormons, as far as I can see, are unique in having a hymn of "praise" sung regularly during their worship service to their founder. If anyone knows of any other churches that do this I'd seriously like to know.

Christians proclaiming they are better than anyone else???? Get a grip. The mainstream Christians welcome all - to weddings, most allow communion to be taken in their churches, and for sure we don't FORCE 10% out of every living member. YOU don't know much about Christians snb.

Don't know of any church who sings a hymn of praise to the one who started their church. It is ridiculous. And you said we hate Mormons....hate is a really strong word. I know they are misguided, ignorant and arrogant. But my daughter is a Mormon and her hubby is and my grandson now is and I certainly don't hate Mormons. I hate the lies they tell their congregation. I hate the way they treat people who leave. I hate the way they tell members when things go wrong, it is their fault for not having a strong enough belief. I hate how they keep nonmormon family from attending a wedding. YOU are very wrong in saying most people hate Mormons. We hate the corporation.

I think most mormons and exmormons tend to assume all religions are as controlling and narrow minded as the one know best. Unless they make an effort to attend many other churches, it's easy to make assumptions based on gossip or little clips on TV.

I know there's a very active mainstream ministers association in the county where I live. Mormons choose not to participate.

Why? Because on some level they realize that they're not like mainstream Christians. They feel different, probably superior, but possibly also inadequate.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think most mormons and exmormons tend to assume
> all religions are as controlling and narrow minded
> as the one know best.

Long ago when the usenet group soc.religion.mormon was being organized its charter called for not allowing quotes or detailed discussion of any part of the endowment ceremony past or present. Some complained at this to which one TMB responded, "we don't expose the secret ceremonies of other religions."

I had to ask, "what secret ceremonies of other religions?" I could only assume that he thought Presbyterians, and Methodists, and Catholics, and Episcopalians had secret ceremonies too.

The group soc.religion.mormon was the first time in the history of the usenet news groups that a group had a charter that forbade CONTENT as opposed to just the usual rudeness or off-topic stuff.

Of course normal mainstream religions have no secret ceremonies. And mormons have very little firsthand knowledge about them which they could possibly reveal.

"I think most mormons and exmormons tend to assume all religions are as controlling and narrow minded as the one know best."

I doubt that is the case. There is very little evidence to support that claim.

Every time you post honestone, it is about how superior your religion is to Mormonism.

No, you aren't the only person who does this. It is common practice. Street preachers try to convert Mormons during general conference. Christians in the news come out and say that Mormons aren't Christian, or that they are a cult.

Hell, I went to a Christian service about a month ago and the entire sermon was about how their religion is better than "some other local religion."

It is pretty ridiculous, actually.

I agree there's a better term than 'diluted', but I can't think of it just now.

Myself, I haven't known any Christians who hate (Mormons); I would say they're CINO's <Christians In Name Only>

But I'll stick with my premise: Actions done to be Obedient don't measure up to ('pure') Christianity, rare it may be.

"Actions done to be Obedient don't measure up to ('pure') Christianity, rare it may be."

I'm not sure we can truly equate Christianity with anything other than professed belief in Christ. However, I do agree with you that actions done to be obedient are not worthy of praise. :)

It's all worship of their deity and savior, in my experience as a music conductor. And, my experience in the Christian Church I belonged to before I converted.
All religious groups have music that embodies their beliefs.
I am not going to split hairs about the music.
I find much of it enjoyable and is part of my upbringing. Many pieces of religious music have a strong emotional tie to my family.

The music/hymns have to be the most depressing I've heard in any 'church' that in itself would make you want not to go back!

They sound like funeral dirges and seem to take forever to wade through.

I recall that as a newbie, I was seriously offended that they dared to use the melody from "Scotland the Brave" to make all kinds of outlandish and pompous declarations about Joseph Smith. I already understood that they "venerated" him, but I didn't really understand why. Still don't. (And I know a heck of a lot more about him now than I did then. . .)

Put yourself back in the shoes of a TBM and then ask yourself "does Gawd need a bunch of wieners singing in order to worship him like lemmings? What good does singing do for Gawd?"

Gawd don't need shitty music. Lemmings do.

I would also like to know if Lutherans sing hymns of praise to Luther. Or Presbyterians to Calvin. Or Methodists to Wesley...

They don't

Protestant were all about Jesus. Beautiful songs of faith and inspiration. My church even had occasional "hymn sings" where we would get together for a meal and sing the congregation's favorites.

Contrast that to the Morg or "Morgue" hymns. Funeral dreary is what I call them. And praising JS? How cultic is that?

Yes.

For many people who attend Christian churches, it is the most important part of the "worship service," especially if performed by a band with guitars, drums, keyboard, etc., and the songs are contemporary Christian rock as heard on such radio stations as the national station KLOVE.

If there were only the messages [sermons] and prayer sections, or they were forced to attend a "traditional" service (with music written from the 1600s to 1800s) they wouldn't attend. I know, because I'm one of those, and know there are others who feel the same way.

The words of a sermon are often forgotten by a week later. The music sung may be still be replayed in your head, and their "message" sticks with you, especially when you hear it again on the radio.

Why do you think the Morg plays such music as "Hail to the Man" and "Follow the Profit"? Like the tunes or words or not, the message being sung gets stuck in a person's head.

Heil Joseph!!!! *Arm to the square*

Praise to the Man is an excellent example of them worshipping JS and not Jesus as their primary focus. They really are out of touch with Christians.

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isn't singing hymns of praise at church a form of
> worship? When we sing "Praise God from whom all
> blessings flow" is that worshiping God? What
> about when we sing "Praise to the Lord, the
> Almighty," isn't that clearly and obviously
> worshiping the Lord?
>
> Then isn't "Praise to the Man" worshiping Joseph
> Smith? Isn't it clear that Mormons directly
> worship Joseph Smith in their churches? Isn't the
> claim "We don't worship Joseph Smith" easily
> disprovable by a look in the hymnal?

That's a good point. After all, who sings hymns to Moses, or any other prophets?

The Beatles were praising Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds. When the Beach Boys sang about Barbara Ann, was it praise or worship?

I praised the popcorn growing on apricot trees through songs in primary.

I'm not so sure when to tell if a song is "praising" someone, but when the word "Praise" is in the title, that seems like a pretty good clue.

Is praising someone who is admired the same as worshiping them?

To be fair, I googled Catholic songs about Mary. There are a ton of them.

They don't seem all that different in content about revering, praising, and yes, worshipping Mary. Here's an example called Queen of Heaven:

You, you are the Queen of Heaven
And we honor you
‘Cause you, you said “I will”, to the Father
For all of us and you
You take our prayers
And you wrap them in your mantle of love
Ya, you lead us to
The only Son of God our Lord above
O blessed are you among women
O and blessed is the fruit of your womb

Of course we can find songs praising the Pope. Here's an example:

Long Live The Pope
Long live the Pope His praises sound again and yet again
His rule is over space and time His throne the hearts of men
All hail the Shepherd King of Rome The theme of loving song
Let all the earth is glory sing And heav'n the strain prelong.
Let all the earth is glory sing And heav'n the strain prolong.

Beleaguered by the foes of earth Be set by hosts of hell.
He guards the loyal flock of Christ A watchful sentinel
And yet amid the din and strife The clash of mace and sword
He bears alone the shepherd staff This champion of the Lord
He bears alone the shepherd staff This champion of the Lord

So, I would expect Mormons to follow suit.

I think Mormons try to connect the importance JS had with JC. He "communed" with Jehovah. I'm not convinced they make JS a demigod any more than Mary. Yet Catholics generally say they do not "worship" Mary or the Pope. I think maybe Mormons are doing the same kind of thing Mormon style. I think each religion has a difference between what it considers praise and worship.

I have attended a Catholic church fairly often over the years and hymns to Mary or the Saints are used mainly on days celebrating that Saint. In other words, once a year and those feasts are most often not on Sunday. The vast majority of hymns are about God and Jesus.I have rarely heard hymns about Mary or the saints other than at Christmas or on saint days.I have rarely heard the pope mentioned and never heard a song about him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2011 06:58PM by bona dea.

Plus wouldn't you say the main Catholic worship service (mass) is a more of a set ritual where they don't sing picks from hymn books?

I'm trying to decide if a Saint is above or below a prophet in the praising pecking order.

Would a prophet, say from the Bible (equivalent to how Mormons would judge JS), be more revered than a Saint to a Catholic? You don't see prophet statues like you see saint statues.

I don't think we can say exactly how individual Mormons would view JS. I would not have claimed to have worshiped JS like JC, but I would have praised him.

Well, the Catholics are upfront about venerating saints(not worshipping them), but Mormons do it in regard to JS and the prophet and then deny it. Another point is that the Catholic focus is on Jesus. In my expereince that isn't true of Mormonism although I am sure it varies from ward to ward.

The centerpiece of the church of St Peter in Chains is Moses. He was an OT prophet.

Are any of those songs regarding Mary or the Pope part of Catholicism's official hymnal? Are they regularly sung during Mass?

Does anyone doubt that Catholics worship Mary?

Mormons worship Joseph Smith; I think that is clear.

When the lyrics start with "Praise to the man . . ." and it's part of the official hymnal of a church to be used in that church's official WORSHIP services then I think it's rather clear.

Did the Beatles' or Beach Boys' concerts open and close with prayer? I don't know, I never went to one.

Singing about a person isn't necessarily praising in a religious sense. Come on, Dagny. There is a word of difference and intent between Lucy in the Sky, Barbara Ann and Praise to the Man. Actually I wouldn't mind an occasional song about JS or the prophet, but my problem is that it doesn't end with the song. They talk about them incessantly at the expense of Jesus even on Christmas and Easter.Enough already.

I think a lot of songs praise people or things. I don't think they are necessarily worship, even if they are in a church.

I also think it would be incredibly boring to hear about nothing but Jesus in church every dam week (and the Bible). I mean, he lived ~33 years and only did so much.

At some point, just to have more things to talk about, I can see why Mormons would add modern prophet stories.

Why people need to hear about Jesus over and over and over is beyond me. Hello, the stories haven't changed any from the last 5000 times you heard them. The Christmas story is the SAME every darn year. Plus people can get miffed if attention is given to anyone else but Jesus. I don't think I could stand not moving on to other topics week after week.