I have a friend who wants proof that Jesus speaks to profits in the temple and I'm having a hard time finding anything other than profits speak for Jesus, and faith promoting rumors. It seems Google has been bombed by LDSinc. and in most cases exmormon.com doesn't even show up till the second page(another topic for another day).

I remember hearing that a night janitor in the SLC temple was cleaning the hallway outside the upper room and a bright light shown under the door! (insert ooooh and Awwww's here.) Have you ever been told something like this? If so, please share. And if you know of a link to an actual source of information please let me know.

Thanks to exmormon.org awesome members!

Well I remember being told that, but I don't think it's written anywhere.

As far as I know no GA has made any claim to have seen and spoken, face to face, with Jesus for over a century.


On March 25, 1950 LDS President George Albert Smith wrote in a private letter, "I have not seen the Father or the Son, neither have I heard their voices in an audible way, but I have felt their presence and have enjoyed the whispering of the Still Small Voice that comes from them, the result of which has given me a testimony of the truth."

This from the pen of the "Prophet" who had been "The Prophet" for almost five years and had been an apostle for over forty years before becoming "The Prophet."

The idea that the big boys have cookies and milk with Jesus on a regular basis stems from a lot of FPRs (like the janitor story) and from the emphasizing that these guys really are "special witnesses" and "prophets, seers, and revelators." Their holy, exalted status is constantly emphasized so that it is normal for members to assume that they do meet with Jesus. The constant reminders that "Jesus is at the head of this Church" also helps fuel the belief.

This belief among the general membership is not discouraged by the Big Fifteen, but it is not confirmed either. I guess they figure that the more awesome the great unwashed think they are the easier it is to get obedience from them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2011 04:16PM by baura.

Yet, those who don't have no real doctrine to worry about. I think it's similar the the 3 Nephites tales.

Manipulation by omission is a common control method.

http://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/03/04/lying-ultimate-manipulation-tactic/

"One subtle approach to lying is lying by omission. When someone wants to pull the wool over your eyes, they don’t have to make an obviously absurd or bogus claim. Many times, all they have to do is make sure they don’t tell the whole truth about something. It’s as simple as leaving out a very important detail or something crucial to understanding the whole picture....[as] an example of an aging salesman concerned about his job security who asked his boss if there were any plans to lay him off or fire him. His boss told him there were no such plans. But he didn’t tell him that his sales accounts were about to be shared with a new, younger employee and that soon he’d be in a position in which he might prefer early retirement as opposed to dwindling commissions. Sometimes, what a person doesn’t say or do can be a much more effective manipulation tool."

I was told on my mission in a large conference, by the member of the 70 that translated the BoM to Korean that the top 15 were all "special witnesses of Jesus Christ" and that meant that they *had* to have *seen* the big JC personally. this is what made them "special" witnesses. This was straight from a BoM Translator no less, he had to "know" something, right? We all felt very special to have been given this knowledge that the rest of the world didn't know for sure...

The reality is, none of it is written down, none of them will either admit it or outright publicly deny it either (unless they are in interviews on TV with media, which they will hint at later that they had to say things that way because the media just wouldn't understand).

It's part of the mythology that is built up around them. It helps them stay in control. I'm willing to bet that if asked by someone that they believe to be a TBM, they will use vauge terms, i.e. "I have been in his presence" or something similar.

They won't come out and say they've seen them but then they will say that they are "special witnesses" leaving the church membership to interpret that in whatever way they want.

Add to the "sacred not secret" aspect of the temples, let alone the Holy of Holies, and it doesn't take much for the average TBM to start assuming that - at the very least - the president of the church is communing with Jehovah.

The brethern know this. They could stop it if they wished but they don't and they won't. If it keeps some members believing, then fine. They also have the luxury of saying that they have never said they've seen Jesus or Elohim.

. . the lights were visibly on late at night in its upper reaches.

Spence must have been up there playing cards with the Christ.

Rook, or maybe UNO.

But not FACE CARDS!

I don't have a source for it, but I remember it. I envisioned myself being in a temple and meeting Jesus face to face based on the story.

From the story I recall the prophets (and there were more than one with this particular experience) were in the Holy of Holies in the SL temple when it happened.

Looking back, it was probably a nice FPR generated for MO consumption.

I remember similar stories (from my Mormon girlfriend) during the mid- to late 70's.

I remember reading an eye witness account of this. I always thought future profits and apopsickles felt they needed to carry on the tradition.

Rod Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I remember reading an eye witness account of this.
> I always thought future profits and apopsickles
> felt they needed to carry on the tradition.

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=6032f48fa2d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=e1fa5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

http://www.believeallthings.com/3456/saviors-appearance-lorenzo-snow/

Evidently the only knowledge we have from this is what he suposedly told his decendents decades later.

Here is the same account as believeallthings.com, but reprinted in the church publication, Friend, August 1993:

http://lds.org/friend/1993/08/lorenzo-snow-and-the-sacred-vision?lang=eng

I found on Wikipedia concerning the Holy of Holies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_of_Holies_%28LDS_Church%29#cite_note-0

Boyd K. Packer, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, has stated that “hidden away in the central part of the temple is the Holy of Holies, where the President of the Church may retire when burdened down with heavy decisions to seek an interview with Him whose Church it is. The prophet holds the keys, the spiritual keys and the very literal key to this one door in that sacred edifice”

Although there isn't a solid source link to back up the statement.

"interview with Him"

Or "pray" in other words.

You hear a lot of "faith promoting rumors" in Christian Fundamentalism as well; they usually happen to missionaries. Stories like how one missionary only had so much bread for a meeting, he began cutting the bread, and the bread produced more slices then it could have possibly done. Or the three men who were suddenly in the presence of the Holy Spirit (they knew because it was a "mighty wind" in a closed room.) Or how an oil drilling crew heard noises coming out of a well; they put a microphone down the well and heard what sounded like souls screaming in Hell. That last story was later debunked.

it's where they received Special Instructions regarding:

earrings/tattoos

flip-flops

white shirts

'unnatural' sex practices, including for married couples.

gambling & prop 8 instructions; MX details

NOT to pursue Yucca Mt. for nuke waste repository site

re-naming CCH & Ricks

Dumping Dixie college from ChurchCo

Details of the Mall, how to Fire the janitors

and the other Mysteries of the Universe!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2011 05:44PM by guynoirprivateeye.

Don't forget Mark Hoffman

That is the difference between Modern Prophets and Olden Day Prophets.

For modern prophets it's too SACRED to discuss their afternoon coffee with Jesus, for the olden day prophets, it was no problem at all. I am sure that if one actually saw the big man, he would be shouting it from the rooftops. I figure these sacred events are no different than any of the 'spiritual' feelings we get from going to good rock concerts and such.

. . . sandal footprints down the carpeted hallway near the temple's holy Upper Room.

To the janitor's astonishment, the path of the sandal footprints suddenly disappeared.

Translation: Jesus was strolling through the really sacred areas of the temple where the prophets and apostles meet with God, then decided to levitate and depart.

Brothers and sisters, Jesus has left the building.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2011 06:22PM by steve benson.

Reading the replies, made me remembered that while I was at the mtc RGScott was making a video where he was with several missionaries, one of my roomates was part of that video I think about how to use the 'commitment pattern' or something like that. He ended it with something like "I know Jesus-Christ lives, not by faith, I know He lives." And of course that roomate spent a lot of time on her bed crying because she had been in the presence of and had talked with a man that seemed "to have seen the lord"

Yes, they "know" he lives, just like every other Mormon "knows" the church is true, that the Book of Mormon is is the word of God, and that Jesus is the Savior.

anyone have a reference for the george albert smith story or a link to a copy of the letter he wrote saying he had never seen father or son?

when me and my wife were sealed. The sealer before the service, took us to a spot in the temple, I remember it was up a stairwell by a large double wooden door, and he stopped and told us that it was the spot where the Savior had appeared to the prophet. I think it was Snow, but can't recall for sure.

Funny part of it, we were young and in love, but at that moment, we thought it was the coolest thing ever. And he made it sound like we were in an area of the temple that most people were not allowed to go. As those of you know that have been to the SL temple, you pretty much go in and they direct you where to go to keep you from wondering around.

Sad part, to this day, my wife considers this the most spiritual moment of her life, and when we talk about the church and that I now have stopped going, she tries to pull this experience out as her "proof" that our temple wedding was special and eternal. My reply has been that I love her, and that I think we could have had a great wedding no matter where it was at.

Definitely faith promoting rumors spread by the flock. I'm not aware of ANY definitive statement by any church prophet, besides Joe Smith that they actually see Jesus/God. However, they love to let the their follower's imaginations go wild.

Surprisingly the Gospel Principles book changed the wording to read that the "Twelve Apostles, who are special witnesses of Jesus Christ" to the "Twelve Apostles, who are special witnesses of THE NAME OF Jesus Christ"

A good link on topic.

http://mormonthink.com/prophetsweb.htm#specialwitnesses

I remember being taught that when I was growing up. In fact SWK saw the big JC and referred to a painting of JC as the closest to His likeness than any other painting. My parents still have that damn thing hung up in their house.

When I was newly baptized into TSCC I went to one of the classes that was taught at institute. The instructor told us of a time when he met one of the apostles (don't recall who it was sorry ><) and how this apostle spoke to him (the instructor) with such reverance about JC. The instructor then told us that he knew that the apostle must be talking to JC at the SL temple, where he frequently went to.

"Jesus speaks with profits in the upper room of the SLC temple." I was told this by the friend who introduced me to the Church. As for an "official" source, I read that same assertion in Talmage's Jesus the Christ. IIRC, it is in the introduction.

I was taught this by a very poofy-haired YW teacher in the late 90s-early 00's. But it's one of those faith promoting rumors with no evidence -- it's meant to make you stand when the profit enters the room because he's seen God. And God is mad about those "foolish tattoos" of yours. LOL.

I'm the OP of this thread and I decided to ask the MormonChat missionaries this question. The conversation is quite fun and enlightening and I plan on typing it out tomorrow as I was reduced to snipping the chat and saving it in chunks to a doc file. The main question is answered though, does the current prophet speak face to face with Jesus Christ? It took a few minutes but the answer was YES (and it was all capitalized also) Along with that came the admission that 'of course these sacred things aren't publicly displayed.'

I'll post the whole discussion tomorrow =)