I'm trying to figure out the most mature, responsible way to deal with this situation. My ex-husband takes our daughter to the LDS church on alternating weekends during his visitation time. He asked if I could bring her to the Primary presentation that she's been practicing for, even though it's my weekend, and I said I would bring her. Then I found out that she needs to learn to say, "I can know the gospel is true when I listen to the prophet." This is her part in the primary program. She is 5 years old. I asked if her line could be changed to something else, about sharing or being nice to others or even saying I love Jesus or I like going to church. Here's the response from my ex-husband (with all the misspellings and grammar mistakes - sorry!)


"I am sorry that you think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints isnt true, as for me, I know that the church is true, not because someone is holding a gun to my head and told me to say that it is because I have had so many experiences that have prove to me of its truthfullness so i ask that you not make assumptions that i "think" it is true. What (our daughter) has is not going to be changed and if you dis agree with what she is going to say then let us know that she will not be able to attend but dont tell me what you think will be more meaningful to (our daughter) and putting words in her mouth about how she feels about something. Again i am sorry you feel lied to and i hope you do find truth in your search for happiness, as for (our daughter) we should keep her options open to anything so she can make the choice for herself later in life."

I didn't say anything about what he thinks or believes; obviously he read a lot more into my email than I actually said. I don't want to say no to the primary presentation and look like the bad guy to my daughter if she really wants to be in it, but I can't support her in this without at least explaining to her that I don't believe it. Remember, she's 5 years old. What would you do?

Ask her what she wants.

Maybe give her a few choices like going to a really fun park or the movies on Sunday.

Since you are already divorced, it's not like you have to worry about exDH feelings.

If she wants to do it, I'd say let her do it. But if she doesn't, it's your week with her, so you can just tell him she can't go.

Agreed here. If she wants to do it, then let her go, but explain to her that it's just a part in a play. If not - it's your weekend. She doesn't go to it. You made a simple request for a change, and he's unwilling to budge.

Also tell your husband that specifically THIS type of "memorization" goes directly against the idea of allowing her to keep her options open so she can make a choice later in life. Tell him it's blatant indoctrination by making her memorize and recite it. Tell her it SPECIFICALLY is putting words in her mouth, which he's accusing you of doing.

What I found interesting about your ex's email was this bit:

"...as for (our daughter) we should keep her options open to anything so she can make the choice for herself later in life."

Um, YEAH. GOOD IDEA. Isn't that exactly what you were trying to tell him??

Having your daughter say things like "I can know the gospel is true when I listen to the prophet" isn't exactly keeping her mind open, is it? Maybe I'm on crack, but it sounds to me like he's talking out of both sides of his mouth. Oy.

As far as what to do? That's a toughie. Since I don't have kids, I have a hard time weighing in with advice. :(

Teaching a 5 year old to say "I know _______ is true" with whatever you fill in the blank with is a pure CULT. Has she ever actually listened to the General Conference???? Does he ever actually say anything for public other than at GC???

Ask her if she knows who the Profit is, and if she has ever listened to him talk. If not, try to get her to see then how can she say "I can know the gospel is true when I listen to the prophet" if she has never actually heard him talk??? She doesn't know what he has said, only what the CULT is telling her he has said. At five, I doubt she is reading any of his conference talks or other books.

Find out if she even wants to participate, then see if she would like saying better something like, "I like being nice to people," or "I like sharing."

I think you have the right to tell your ex what you would like your daughter to say. He is allowing someone else to tell her what to say. You are one of two parents, you have at least as much right as a stranger!

Gawd, your ex is pretty damn pushy AND touchy! You certainly CAN tell him what you think is more meaningful. So can he. He sounds a bit immature.

HYPOCRITE!!

I can't believe he said: "if you dis agree with what she is going to say then let us know that she will not be able to attend but dont tell me what you think will be more meaningful to (our daughter) and putting words in her mouth about how she feels about something"

What in the sam bloody hell is HE doing but putting words in her mouth about how she feels???? At her age she don't know what she's saying!

Oh, I get it, it's fine and dandy if a MO does it, but not if a regular person does it, right, because Mos are better?

Bleah.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2011 04:00PM by The StalkerDog™.

then why is he so hot and bothered that she repeat a line where she says she "knows" something she doesn't know?

I wouldn't want my daughter to participate in something like that. I think you should talk to her about it -- maybe she doesn't want to do it either? If she enjoys performing, perhaps you can find a children's theater or dance group or something where she can prepare for recitals or plays that don't involve religion.

Edit: hehehehe, maybe you can teach her the line a little differently. What if she says: "My Daddy knows the gospel is true when he listens to the prophet." ?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2011 04:04PM by Rebeckah.

My daughter is actually with my ex right now for his mid-week visit, so I can't talk to her about it, but I'm sure she would prefer going to a movie. (Smurf movie is at the dollar theater!) I just wrote him back an email saying that the line she has to say sounds like brainwashing and indoctrination, and if the only way she can participate is by saying that, we'll find something better to do on Sunday. I think that should settle it. Thanks for the good advice!

My grandsons loved the Smurf Movie. :)

Look at it this way -- there will never be an end to the primary programs. Stop the nonsense now and enjoy your time with your daughter.

It's just fine for some organization (TSCC) to put words in her mouth. CULT

It's funny that he should say
"I am sorry that you THINK the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints isnt true, as for me, I know that the church is true ...so I ask you not to make assumptions that I "THINK" it is true."

He is doing to you what he asks you no to do to him. He's assuming you don't know the church is not true you only think it's not true...

You could actually say the same thing to him, to not assume you only think it's not true, because you know it's not true.

I actually think that having to say "I KNOW this is true" is a sign of doubt - overstating the case to make others think something you don't fully believe yourself. It's so painfully obvious that the Mormon religion is a fraud that it doesn't even have to be said. I don't know or think that it's not true as much as I simply observe it, and I'm perfectly happy to let others make their own observations.

I tend to agree with you. (By saying it they try to convince themselves) It is just funny to me that people do what the kind of thing he did, and not just in that area. Some people will ask others to do, or not do, something to, or about them, but they will do exactly the reverse to the oters.
In any case I hope that everything will work out fine for you and your daughter.

If it were me, I'd make sure that I kept the focus on your daughter and what she wants and needs from you and your ex. Don't make this into a battle with the ex. Yeah, he's a prick, and his attitudes about the church practically beg for a response, but stay focused on your daughter.

Picnic, movie, out for lunch, shopping, bake cookies, read a stack of picture books, make ice cream sundaes, carve a jack-0-lantern and roast the seeds.

Perhaps next time this comes up, Dad will see that her speaking part isn't so against everything you and most here see as positive. What she's being asked to recite would be like you making her say "The mormon church is a bad cult."

Dear Owl,

I am objecting to the verbiage assigned to dear daughter not because I think it is evil, but because this is a kolobian sunday school presentation and her line blatantly contradicts kolobian doctrine.

I re-read Moroni 10:5 and it says:

"by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

It does NOT say, "by the power of the Prophet Thomas S. Monson ye may know the truth of all things."

If you would simply correct the apostate sunday school teachers who have replaced the Holy Ghost with Thomas Monson I would have no issue whatsoever with our daughter's line.

I also believe that one can know the gospel is true by listening to the Holy Spirit. The gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ and his spirit shares that message with the world.

Stick to that and I'll bring dear daughter to your silly little indoctrination session.

Thanks,


P.S. If you don't know why I called you Owl then you'll never know.

Most excellent!

Also, the bigger issue is how you keep your daughter inoculated against the ongoing onslaught from him and the church.

She needs to have some basic assertiveness skills as early as possible, and a big and regular dose of critical thinking examples that are age appropriate.

She is quite assertive already, but not extremely logical (she's 5). I don't really know how to teach age-appropriate critical thinking skills, but if you could point me in the right direction, I think that's exactly what would help the most.

This is an area in which I have had some success.

Some of you know I like to use pets because young children have difficulty with abstractions, but they can be taught simple logic.

This is an example of a two-part lesson teaching the difference between observation and drawing a conclusion.

PART 1

Adult: How well do you know Fido?

Child: Pretty well, very well, he's my best friend, etc.

Adult: Terrific, because I'm going to ask you some questions about him.

Child: Great- I know him best of anyone.

Adult: What does Fido do when he's hungry?

Child: Answer or I don't know.

Adult: How do you know that? Dogs can't tell you what they are thinking.

Child: I see him do it all the time and then when we feed him he stops.

Adult: You just made an observation. You observed something--that means you saw it. What do you see him doing right now?

Child: (responds)

Adult: You observed him sleeping on his chair. Do you think he's hungry?

Child: No because he would be (action) if he wanted food.

Adult: You just made a conclusion! You are so smart!

Child: I am?

Adult: Yes, indeed. You made the observation that Fido was sleeping and you drew the conclusion that he was not hungry.

Child: Yes - because he wasn't (action)

Adult: That's what scientists do. They make observations and they draw conclusions from what they see--you could be a scientist when you grow up, you know.

Child: I could?

Adult: Yes, because your conclusion was smart thinking. I'd like to hear more of your conclusions later, but right now let's go have ice cream (or swing, etc).

It's important to keep these conversations short so they child wishes you could go on some more. Their span of attention is short and this is about right for a 4-5 year old.

The next session would have the child making another observation about the dog prompted by the intro, Let's see what we know is true about Fido. Let's make some observations....Fido sometimes barks loudly all of a sudden for no reason at all-- why? Then you carry through with the child understanding that he knows someone is walking toward the house because when Fido barks, shortly thereafter, someone goes by or someone knocks. He has made a conclusion based on his observation of Fido barking many times. We introduce the idea that it is PROBABLE that there is someone coming; however, POSSIBLE that a burglar is breaking in. Is it more probable that someone is walking down the street in front of the house or more likely that a burglar is breaking in?

How do you know which answer is the truth? We can't know for sure, so we go with what's probable, so usually you would just look out the window, right?

Now the neighbor comes over while Fido is barking and says to you that you better call the police because the dog is barking and there must be a burgler. What do you say to the neighbor? (No, he barks whenever people walk by). Now he tells you that you can know what is true by listening to him. What do you say to that? (No, I can draw my own conclusions from my observations)


This is simplified, but gives you the template. To show you how well this works in making life easier for toddlers, I'll give you an example from my own life. My grandson is four. His mother lets him eat chocolate chips out of the package. I don't. Mother leaves me babysitting and the boy sees a new package of chocolate chips sitting on the table. He says to me, "My mother let's me eat these." And I respond, "Hmmm. I don't." He takes them to a hidden corner of the yard and tries to eat them without me seeing him. We have this conversation:

ME: That is not honest.

HIM: I want chocolate chips.

ME: You can't always get what you want. You know there's song about this by a rock n roll band. I begin singing, "You can't always get what you WAAAANT....but....you get what you NEEEEED."

Have you observed that grown-ups are all different? That one grownup says you can do something and the other says no?

HIM: Tilts his head. "I've noticed that."

ME: It's something every kid learns sooner or later. When Mom's here, she's in charge. When she's gone, another adult is in charge, right?

HIM: My mom and dad have different rules....(gives example)

ME: GREAT! You have made another brilliant observation...and what is your conclusion?

HIM: When YOU'RE here, I have to do what YOU say.

ME: EXACTLY! Someday you may become a brilliant scientist and study microbiology like your Daddy.

This is one way to help your little ones put on the full armor of reason and develop pride in their thinking ability as opposed to pride in their ability to mindlessly obey. When you use this method, you are vaccinating your children or grandchildren against Mormonism, Scientology, Jehovah Witnesses, MLM's, and every other type of scam that is on earth that would deprive them of their money or their freedom to live their own lives. What a gift! What a legacy! They will never forget you!

Given this background, you would just ask the five year old if you can better draw a conclusion about Fido better from what some neighbor comes over and says or based on what you yourself observed.


Anagrammy

PS. Critical thinking children and grandchildren are the most wonderful balm on the scars and regrets that Mormonism leaves us with.

I found the following web site to be useful.

http://kidsthinkingcritically.wordpress.com/

Here is just another example of how Mormonism divides people. I would keep her out of it as much as possible, unless she absolutely wants to go. Then I would avoid any discussion of the issue with the ex except to say that you don't approve of Mormonism and so naturally you wouldn't want your daughter in it. He's full of crap saying that you should keep options open. Right. The only option he has open is for Mormonism.

Congratulations, Sexismyreligion, for seeing through all the BS. The Mormons like to take over the lives of children, book them up and make them commit to little programs and talks and duties, to coerce them into attending--just like they do to the adult members, with their callings. "You can't let us down." Don't buy into it.

Why should you alter your visitation with your daughter, just because a cult arbitrarily decided your daughter should stand up in front of a group and tell a lie? That makes no sense.

Go ahead with your fun plans to see the Smurf movie. If anyone makes a stink about your daughter not showing up, tell your husband, "These are YOUR people--You deal with them." Your ex should have told them "no" in the first place, because he knew it was your week to have your daughter.

This has nothing to do with you or your daughter. This is just another example of Mormons crossing the boundaries, and interfering with a family's life. Just say "no" to all of it, and don't feel guilty. Don't worry about the feelings of hard-core fanatics. They don't have feelings--except for the feelings they fake in order to manipulate you.

Oh--and NO WAY should you allow your daughter to stand up and tell a lie. What is that teaching her? Stand firm! You have a legal right!

I hope your ex will stand by his words, and let your little girl WAIT UNTIL SHE IS OLD ENOUGH to understand all the facts of Mormonism, before she is baptized. You should laminate your ex-s letter, to remind him, when your daughter turns 8.

A five year old is not yet brainwashed, and the Primary knows this, and they work extra hard on little kids. You--and they--know that if you ask your daughter if she wants to say those words, and if she wants to be in the program in the first place--she will say "no" as any normal child would. Ask her if she wants to go to the movie, and she will say, "yes." Mormons believe that children have no right to choose!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2011 04:39PM by forestpal.

"and putting words in her mouth about how she feels about something"
He told YOU to not put words in her mouth, but what does he think he's doing??

"we should keep her options open to anything so she can make the choice for herself"

I'd say, "Great advice, I took it and gave her the option of doing this program or going to a movie..she picked the movie."

I find your ex's mail really defensive and rude, but honestly, I would just take her. It's not worth the fight and it helps foster a working relationship with you and him, and him and your daughter if you take her. She's only 5 and the only thing she's going to understand is mommy and daddy are fighting over this. It's obviously really important to him that she do her presentation. It may even be reasonable to just ask him to take her and drop her off at your house after church, but that's up to you.

Whatever you do DO NOT let his response or attitude influence what you do! Just ignore it. Pretend you never saw it and base your decision on what is best for your daughter without coming between her relationship with her father.

There will come a time in the future you may want to do something for a couple hours with her on his time and he will say no just to be spiteful over this. Don't throw fuel on that fire. It will just get harder for everyone as time goes on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2011 05:21PM by vhainya.

That is a tough one because of the effects on a child. I would take her and let her do what was assigned to her in primary. If she is going to Church every other weekend, then this is only the tip of the iceberg. I recommend that you show her your love and the light that is within you. Be an example. She will come to the correct decision in her life as she gets older and she will love you.

When I was a young kid (maybe 5 or 6, I don't remember exactly), I got up in testimony meeting and started rattling off the same things that everybody else was saying. I rambled, and my Dad (who was the bishop at the time) came and got me down from the podium.

And he said something that stuck with me. He told me I shouldn't say I knew it was true unless I really did. It led to me honestly questioning myself throughout my life if I really knew or not. And I never did bear witness to anything that I didn't feel a burning belief of. Which happened exactly twice in my life. And the testimony feeling didn't last.

His advice actually led to me leaving the church. Ultimately, it created an awkward situation when someone asked me to bear testimony and it forced me to realize I didn't even HAVE a testimony. If I had been one to just get up and say what everyone else said, I could have breezed through that testimony and wouldn't have started asking questions, and researching. [p.s. I got out of it easily because they asked me to bear it in RS the next day, and one of my kids got sick-HALLELUJAH].

So maybe you could go ahead and let her do the program, and find an appropriate time (later) to ask her if she wrote her part or if someone gave it to her. And let her know that if she gives her testimony, she should always speak from her heart, and not just copy what other people say. And that everybody doesn't have to feel the same way. . . . kind of like you and her dad don't agree about the church. . . . or something like that. That probably needs some tweaking, but that's the general idea.

And it's foolish to expect the child to sort out doctrine and practices and make decisions on what they should attend.

Mormons are skilled at influencing vulneralable people to join and participate. A five year old much more subject to this kind of pressure than the nonmo converts and adult family members who feel powerless to resist.

Any good parent needs to step up and insist on boundaries. The father in this case has a right to take this child to church activities half of the time. He doesn't have a right to insist on controlling the little girl when she's with mom.

Going along halfway says to the mormons that they're right to push their advantage.

I would only let the child participate in a church activity if NO brainwashing were included like perhaps a song about aprocot trees or an ice cream social.

It's good to help kids learn critical thinking skills but some kids have no natural talent or ability in this area. They need support.

I like the part where he responds to your challenge about what words were being put into your daughters mouth by telling you not to put words into your daughters mouth.

The best way to deal with irrational people is just to stick solidly to the time agreement that is in place. If it's your weekend then she's with you and that's that. Don't deviate.

If it fell on his weekend then fine, you don't allow him to stipulate what you do with your daughter during your alloted time and allow him the same latitude.

If it's your weekend, stick to it.

"If it fell on his weekend then fine, you don't allow him to stipulate what you do with your daughter during your alloted time and allow him the same latitude."

That's another thing..I bet he will try and ALWAYS have his daughter involved and participating in church activites on weekends where he doesn't have her...and "she really...really...REALLY wants to do this thing at church this weekend"..

Don't fall for it

Then I found out that she needs to learn to say, "I can know the gospel is true when I listen to the prophet." This is her part in the primary program. She is 5 years old. I asked if her line could be changed to something else, about sharing or being nice to others or even saying

"I am sorry that you think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints isnt true, as for me, I know that the church is true, not because someone is holding a gun to my head and told me to say that it is because I have had so many experiences that have prove to me of its truthfullness so i ask that you not make assumptions that i "think" it is true. What (our daughter) has is not going to be changed and if you dis agree with what she is going to say then let us know that she will not be able to attend but dont tell me what you think will be more meaningful to (our daughter) and putting words in her mouth about how she feels about something. Again i am sorry you feel lied to and i hope you do find truth in your search for happiness, as for (our daughter) we should keep her options open to anything so she can make the choice for herself later in life."


Christ this is just sick...and this kind of "rearing" coming from a parent....

Forcing his daughter to parrot what others say and pass it off as her own words.. He IS holding an emotional gun to her head.

This is what I would tell your ex:
YOU...can say whatever you want regarding you belief in mormonism's truthfulness. Our 5yr old does not KNOW it's true...except that you and other tell it is...that's it. There's no other evidence to suggest she knows it's true. 5yr olds don't have "burning bosoms" about the spirit.

Either you have her change what she says...or -I-, as her other legal parent to ALSO help rear physically, emotionally...AND spirtually will tell her that mormonism is NOT true based off of what -I- know.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2011 11:57AM by nonmo.

You got a lot of opinions here. I know it's frustrating to deal with an ex. Dealing with mine over some tedious issues right now. He uses my daughter to try and prove a point to me all the time and I really resent it. It has fostered such an unhealthy dynamic and I wish he'd just deal with me directly instead of putting our daughter between us. That's why I have such a strong opinion of what you should do.

You need to separate the two problems here. That of your ex and his attitude toward you and the church, and that of allowing your daughter to attend this activity at your ex's request. You need to do what is in your daughter's best interest and not what makes you feel good. She's 5 years old. Does it really matter if she parrots some line people are saying in church on your time versus her dad's time? She's already doing it every other weekend away from you. I think she's old enough to realize you're going for her sake and not because you believe in the message.

It IS your time, and if you take her your ex is still going to be fully aware of that. You want your schedule to be flexible and you want a working relationship with him. You are both so defensive and afraid to bend for each other. Why not try getting along with him this once and see what happens?

You KNEW what his reaction was going to be when you confronted him. So why go there? You did it just to start a fight because you are angry and hurt with him. You already knew you were not going to get anything but friction, so why do it? I think you were totally in the wrong to even start the argument in the first place.

You are putting your daughter in a really bad place and she's the one who is going to end up hurt. Please, please, please try to make this right by her and don't put her in the middle of your ongoing battle with her father. All it does is hurt your daughter. You go ask her if she wants to spend time with her dad or go to a movie? Why would you ask a 5 year old to choose between mom and dad by bribing her just to throw it in her father's face? What are you thinking? You think that isn't going to have a negative effect on her?

You MUST learn to co-parent with your ex so you can come together when you have real problems with your daughter. This church thing is not even an issue yet you've made it into one. What is going to happen if she turns to drugs, drinking, or other extreme behaviors? Are you two just going to blame each other and undermine each other just to garner favor with your daughter while ignoring her real problems? Neither of you will be effective parents if this is the dynamic going on, so what is going to stop something like that from happening?

Really think about what you are doing here. Don't get into a power play over this. It's just not that big of a deal and it's not worth the drama.

I smell an apologist here....

She ALSO has strong opinions re: the spirtual upbringing of HER child.

It's always assumed that if 1 parent is TBM and the other isn't, that you should just go along with the TBM's religious choices. BOTH parents here get to raise their child and educate their child spirtually...

Did you read this line from the original post?
""I can know the gospel is true when I listen to the prophet." This is her part in the primary program"



No other church REQUIRES their members young or old to KNOW that their religion is true...and to follow "the prophet".

It's standard mormon brainwashing and the mom's logic radar and caring radar for her daughter is going off big time.

What's a testimony?? It's what you believe based on what you've experencied and felt. I know alot of ADULT mormons have this testimony, but 5yr old children don't so they shouldn't be FORCED into having a testimony be CONSTANTLY repeated the same testimonial lines over and over again....


It's brainwashing pure and simple and the mom has a right to not have it done to her daughter......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2011 01:45PM by nonmo.

I just don't think it's worth the fight when it's a good opportunity to foster a working relationship with her ex and view that as more important. She could use it as leverage later to request some back and forth flexibility with the rotating weekend schedule. I don't agree with how the church makes their members parrot that BS but I think she's making a bad situation worse by using it as a source of conflict rather than try to get along better with her ex.

She's 5 years old. If she didn't want her to go then she should have just told her ex no to start and settled the decision without the drama instead of starting this argument then dragging her 5 year old into it by asking her if she wants to go to church or see a movie (mom or dad). She's handled it in the worst way possible and as far as I can tell the only way to get her daughter out of the middle of the fray is to take her.

I agree, nonmo...I can only speak from experience that having to try to reverse the brainwashing effects on my 8 year old, who I thought had been "innocently" attending church with her grandma since she was 5, is not an easy thing to deal with. The things coming out of her mouth are the exact words I've heard from my mom my whole life, shoved into her little sponge-like brain.

Ellie, you are such a loving person and I'm sorry you're going through this with your daughter. I just want to point out to people who aren't familiar with your story that your mother uses an extreme amount of emotional blackmail and manipulation. If this woman's ex was that extreme with his daughter then she should fight him tooth and nail to make it so he never sees her again.

My niece chose the easier parent at eight. She liked the one that allowed junk food, no chores and postponing homework. That's pretty easy to understand. She accepted making the "easy" parent happy with the church thing. The payoff was huge with instant gratification.

Flash forward 20 years. She has rejected the church, blew her college fund, is unemployed and unmotivated. She has no relationship with either parent. The confusion when she was so young, combined with parental manipulation has her a confused adult. She called me asking for money yesterday.

As parents, (and I am not, so this is from left field), you two better get on the same page and quickly. Five years old to Eight goes really quick, and you are dealing with a person who has a lot of pressure and knowlege to manipulate. Please dig in your heals early.

I think the ONLY action that is "worth the fight" is to protect your children from manipulators. What this exhusband is doing is, plain and simple, textbook manipulation. He's trying it on everyone.

I don't know how many of you who are advocating just taking the kid to the program have actually been in abusive relationships with manipulators. There is no compromise a little bit. If you give just a tiny little inch, they will take a mile. He will nickle and dime her out of time for this event and that event and it's all SO special and important to Little Sprog's spiritual development. Next thing you know, the kid is pressured into baptism, or worse: young women's, dog forbid.

You cannot control what he does when he has time with her. He cannot control what you do when you have time with her. Do not take her and do not acquiesce. Do not equivocate and do not apologize. You and the kid have plans, sorry. She won't be in the program.

This is just one little thing and I understand the importance of compromise (to those who are suggesting it's just not worth fighting about). But compromise works both ways and that's how you resolve conflict with HEALTHY people. When you are dealing with people who have sick, twisted values, lie for the Lord, and brainwash children, THAT's when you dig in your heels and refuse to compromise.

Just think if some adult had fought that good fight for some of us when we were younger, we might not be in this recovery situation. I wish someone in authority had advocated for my right to say no. Especially since we're talking about a girl child and girls are socialized in general not to say no, it's especially important for mom to be a role model and hold her ground on things that are REALLY IMPORTANT.

I wouldn't let my five year old attend if it were my weekend. I'd take her for ice cream (or a movie) instead. Even if my daughter were to express an interest in attending, using redirection such as an ice cream cone or movie (splurge on candy), would probably diminish any thoughts she had about participating in a boring program.

As for teaching critical thinking skills, ask her what she has learned in church after she attends with her dad. Then use that time to teach her what YOU think and your reasons for thinking that way.