This is the most exasperating part of Mormonism. What does that phrase mean? Love the church, hate the people? Are the people not in fact the church? I don't know if people who say that even understand what it means. The church changes all the time.
What is, in fact, the gospel? I hate how they can flip between the "speaking as a man, speaking as a prophet" argument to justify all the baloney that these old geezers spout.

Another one of ambiguous meaning / application:

"god is no respecter of persons" (BOTH Bible & D&C)

JUST EXACTLY WHAT DOES THAT MEAN; HOW IS IT APPLIED????

Sorry for yelling, I'm just really despising Mormons today. More than usual, anyway.

Me too this phrase is one big cop out

Another way to put this is, the church is One, Holy, Apostolic, and Catholic. It is the only correct church, it is sanctioned by God, it has the correct authority, and its principles are universal.

If anything bad happens it is not the church because of the above statement. People, prophets, bishops, history, and actions suggest failure and evil, but since the church perfect it cannot fail or be evil.

meaning, "our people are so good and holy, they prove the church is true."

Gospel = Good News! You don't have to give EVERYTHING you have to the church. You can make a one-lifetime donation of 10% and still learn the secret handshakes, key words, and monkey gestures that will get you into the celestial clubhouse.

But that's not all! Act now and you'll get access to our very special celestial harem special at no extra charge! Just pay separate processing & shipping.

Void where prohibited, restrictions may apply, see bishop for details. Holy books represented may not actual reflect literal historical events or in any way offer useful information for bettering your situation.

In a time of trouble, I became discouraged with the way so many of my church leaders acted. I was expressing my frustration to a good friend (who had been a Bishop and a Stake President). This guy had openly admitted many of his concerns to me, and is very well informed.

After a while, he said to me, "You know they're just men, doing the best they can. What did you expect from them?"

It all spilled out. I replied, "That's it then. When these men extended me callings, accepted my tithing, or told me to do things, I was expected to treat them like they were conveying God's inspired word to me. I was wrong if I failed these men.

When I needed God, I turned to these men, and I received no inspired response. In those moments, I'm expected to understand that these men were just imperfect men? When it suits the church, my leaders are inspired by God, but I shouldn't expect the same men to be inspired when I need help from God?"

Anyone who willingly submits himself to such stupidity, once he figures that out, deserves whatever abuse he suffers. After all, what did you expect from these men?

within the context of Mormonism is that we're supposed to judge the gospel by its fruits. So, the quality of the people is something by which we should judge the quality of the faith. So, it's not coherent to ask us to separate the people from the institution that produces them.

Plus, how else are we supposed to judge the gospel except by the merits of the idiots it produces? My mother and I had this conversation a few weeks ago. You can't ask me to judge the church in some abstract scenario where people all respond to it the ideal way you imagine they should. The church is only as good as the people it produces-- in actuality. It doesn't get credit for how it would work if people understood it better, were more obedient, or had all the same psychological needs. The church only gets credit for how it all comes out in the wash in practice-- not some imagined scenario where its people have perfect understanding and personal discipline.

I heard a believing Muslim woman on a radio show say that once to defend her religion, and it blew my mind. Then I googled the phrase, and it is a very common defense meme of Islam. I think Mormons may have gotten it from Muslims, which would be very interesting if true. Maybe that's something you could say. "Did you know that's exactly what Muslims say? 'Islam is perfect, but Muslims are not.' Is it true when Muslims repeat that meme or just when Mormons repeat it?"

I understood it to mean (at the time) it was based on the notion that the "gospel" teaches perfection in it's doctrine as taught in the Bible.

It was based on the scripture:
Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

That is the claim that I was taught, anyhow. (Clearly, I have no belief in any of it anymore.)

I've also heard people say: the church is perfect, the people are not, but that never did many any sense to me. I thought that was a bit of a misnomer, or misstatement. Members sometimes use church for gospel interchangeably.

The scripture in Matt 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" is telling PEOPLE to be perfect. How do they get the claim that the Gospel is perfect from that?

sexismyreligion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The scripture in Matt 5:48, "Be ye therefore
> perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is
> perfect" is telling PEOPLE to be perfect. How do
> they get the claim that the Gospel is perfect from
> that?


My understanding is that the Bible taught the Gospel, and as such, it's possible to be "perfect" as your father in heaven. Meaning, in my understanding, at the time, "in heaven" was the perfect state, not on earth.

This was a well known scripture to me in the Christian Church I attended long before I converted. It's not exclusive to Mormonism, of course.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2011 12:51PM by SusieQ#1.

That is the problem. You can't even nail down what is "the church" or "the gospel." If there is anything that might be questionable it quickly becomes not part of "the church" or "the gospel."

It is just a mind programming phrase to use when pissed off with other Mormons, before your anger turns to doubt. "REMEMBER THE CHURCH IS PERFECT!" ~ Stop doubting that those leaders were not inspired callings, and remember THE CHURCH IS TRUE...

I left the MO 2.0 Fb (a "liberal" morg grp that discusses issues with church governance etc) group yesterday for something similar. A young woman on her way out of church had posted that rumors of her abusing her children etc were being spread through her ward and she lamented the fact that some of these people used to be friends.

I made three comments:

1) character assassination is a common tool within the church when dealing with apostates.
2) the church wanted her to be unhappy so she would consider returning to "activity".
3) this type of behavior by tbms shows them for what they are - lying, cruel, manipulative, and unchristian

The responses were rapid and pretty angry. I suppose i hit a nerve. So I responded by stating that i judge the church by its fruits and added that while not all mormons may engage in character assassination, it happens, and is rarely if ever challenged by the majority of "good mormons" my detractors claimed make up the church. Which is worse? the hateful gossips, or those that let it happen without opposing it?

Just more evidence that the road out of the church is long and twisting when even those charging it with fraud or questioning basic tenets come to its defense. The cult is its membership.

That is just a patently nonsensical phrase.

"The church is perfect, the people are not," is one of my aunts favorite fall back arguments. My cousin and I were just talking about this last night - funny.

To me, this just shows their stupidity. How could a church be perfect if the people were not. People run the church. This is just their fall back argument when all others fail. The church is only as good and perfect as the people running it.

I call "bullshit".

and to make him or her look shallow for genuininely valid critiques of TSCC.

I bought that for a while when I first started questioning things.

The statement makes no sense, though, because the PEOPLE make the doctrine for the church. If the people are not decent people, how can we trust that they are teaching some truth from god and not just some random BS?

After I realized that it was over for me.

One of the greatest epiphanies in my life was when I switched the phrase around and learned that the people aren't the one's screwing up the church, the church was screwing up the people. In fact, it's the people of the church that have been ironing out its major flaws since BY and JS.

The people are a lot more perfect than the church is.

And it could be argued that it has been people outside the church who have helped perfect it by putting pressure on the church to remove the teaching of polygamy and the priesthood ban.

My sister said that to me.

I asked her to explain to me in detail how a perfect church looks.

end of conversation.

I always heard it as "the Gospel is perfect not the people". because if the "church" organization and/or government is made up of people then there are bound to be some flaws and mistakes made.

If I had a dollar for every time I heard "the church is perfect, the people are not" I could have paid for City Creek myself.

I never heard "the gospel is perfect, the people are not." It was always "the church."

kolobian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I had a dollar for every time I heard "the
> church is perfect, the people are not" I could
> have paid for City Creek myself.

:-) I hear ya!
>
> I never heard "the gospel is perfect, the people
> are not." It was always "the church."

Yes, I've heard it that way too, but I really think it's because the members use: gospel and church interchangeably.

anonow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I always heard it as "the Gospel is perfect not
> the people". because if the "church" organization
> and/or government is made up of people then there
> are bound to be some flaws and mistakes made.


Exactly my point. I think the leaders are more likely to say: Gospel, not church, in their talks etc.
Sometimes, Gospel and church are used interchangeably.
I don't have a problem with the statement "the Gospel is perfect, the people are not."
It makes sense in the context of the scripture in Matthew anyhow.
The Gospel teaches that salvation = a perfected state in the afterlife. That is how I understood it growing up in a Christian Church also.

On top of that, the LDS Church thinks it's the "only true" church anyhow. Of course, they are not alone! :-)

I get that nobody is perfect, including church leaders. I expect that TSM has let loose a cuss word at his kids. I expect that Gordo padded his expense report.

BUT, I never expected any of them, especially ones like Joseph Smith to $%ck 14 year olds or marry other men's wives. I never expected BY to cover up a mass murder. I never expected Gordo and Oaks to buy and then hide documents unflattering to the church (even though they ended up being hoaxes...).

So this excuse only goes so far. Then the gig is up.

I really, really hate it when people use this to excuse js crap with the underaged girls and other men's wives. He's just flawed and human like us. Wtf? Can you imagine warren jeffs using this in court. Sorry about all the young girls judge, but the church is perfect, not me. Oh ok, case dismissed then. Not!

Not meaning to boast, but I'm more f***ing perfect than the church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2011 04:22PM by freeman.

That's just a REALLY LOW BAR with which to measure yourself!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2011 04:28PM by helamonster.

True.

It doesn't work as a cop out for the church leaders, because they are supposed to be chosen by God through the inspiration of other men who are inspired by God. In other words, all the people who hold callings in the church are supposedly "God approved", both by their selection and the discernment, still small voice, direction, and inspiration they're supposed to get from the Holy Ghost/God.

So why do they f*ck up?

Which Church?

The one that taught polygamy is required for the CK?
The one that taught blacks were less than valiant in the pre-existance, and therefore got inferior bodys?
The one that taught Adam is God the Father?
The one that said the WoW is just a suggestion?
The one that included death oaths in its temple ceremony?
The one that started w/o tithing, then later made tithing requirement for most ordinances?
The one that changed the BoM to eliminate the references to the trinity?
The one that originally taught god the father is a spirit? and now teaches he has a body?
The one that ordered Emma to let Joe bang teenagers, or she'd be destroyed?

The list goes on and on.....the church, the gospel, or whatever you want to call it, is always changing to fit the current social and policital climate. Clearly not "the one and only true church".

Just remember, corporations (like the church) are people too!!!

But seriously, I think this is the silliest of arguments. The church claims to have unique advantages. For instance:

*The church claims that every man has the power of God.
*They claim to have more truth than any other church.
*They alone have the TRUE Holy Ghost.
* Everyone else just has the "Light of Christ," whatever that means.
*They alone have the amazing extra scriptures of Joseph Smith.
*Mormons alone hear from God's true prophet all the time.
*All Mormons were the best spirits in the pre-existence and so have a running head start on all the filthy, heathen Africans.

Yet somehow, with all these amazing advantages, most of the worst people I have ever met are Mormons. You would think that all these advantages would show up in the people, right? Why are so many jackasses then? Also, it seems that the more authority and"righteousness" they have, the more contemptible they are. I know lots of Mormons that I like. Tellingly, NONE of them are GAs or apostles. Most are lower level callings. Excepting Elder Wirthlin, every GA or Apostle I have ever met came across as a real dick. Why don't their daily chats with God help them be nicer? Fair questions.

Without the arrogant and self serving people,,there would be no,,"church",,, How do you have a "church" without people??

I recently had a letter by the woman who tried to talk others into boycotting my daughter's wedding. Her exact words were,
"the church is perfect, the people are not." Of course she never admitted to or owned up to what she did.

The church is what you get, nothing more and nothing less. Unfortunately, there are too many nasty people and too many willing to enable and coverup for these nasty people.

The expression in question is nothing more than a loaded jargon statement. It says more than meets the eye.

1. We have the only whole truth, Christianity outside of us is false so you have NO where to go so suck it up and move on, get in step and quit complaining because the church is your only hope.