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Posted by: sherlock ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 05:04AM

My TBM wife is really starting to question a few things that TSCC puts out and the latest one is homosexuality. Probably largely due to her love of how the gay couple in 'Modern Family' is depicted.

She's really become very accepting of this (to the degree that she'd have absolutely no issue with any of our childten turning out to be gay) and I can sense there's a good degree of cognitive dissonance with her own increasingly accepting views compared to what she's been brought up to believe.

So, I'd really appreciate some quotes of church leaders that I can share with her. Namely anything that was very disparaging of homosexuality, anything that indicated SSA was just a sinful lifestyle choice and anything that shows subtle, more recent changing views and a slightly greater degree of 'acceptance'.

I've already told her about Prop 8, so some bona fide quotes may help tip the balance. Thanks in advance.

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Posted by: Levi ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 05:11AM

Spency Kimball's hate filled book "Miracle of Forgivness".

In it he warns that if you maturbate, you will become gay.

Idiocy.

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Posted by: jazzskeeter ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 11:49AM

+1
that is the only church book I've kept, because it is too hateful and wrong to be believed! I can't believe I ever revered SWK as a prophet.

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Posted by: freeman ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 05:48PM

I knew SWK wasn't a prophet after I read that book... because if anybody should have turned out gay...

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Posted by: jasonian ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 06:44AM

Hm, not sure I get it?

Your wife has no issues with gay people or with homosexuality, but you want to use her church to influence her away from that openmindedness? Isn't that counter-productive?

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Posted by: Pista ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 06:53AM

I think he's trying to sway her away from the church by showing her that its teachings are inconsistent with her own views. I think he is also looking for internal inconsistencies to show how the church has changed its position over time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2011 06:54AM by Pista.

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Posted by: sherlock ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 07:57AM

Correct! Thanks Pista

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 06:55AM

I think the conference talk by Boyd K Packer (last October?) got the gay community riled up, it was a bigoted piece. You would need to find the original transcript as the Church edited it heavily before putting it on LDS.org.

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Posted by: AngelCowgirl ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 09:28AM

The site is not letting me post the links!!

Try taking the spaces out in the word so the link will work...

http://t i n y u r l.com/3nehr38

http://t i n y u r l.com/lseyld

http://t i n y u r l.com/3cvuqg9

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Posted by: sherlock ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 10:14AM

That's useful thanks. Great to see the inspired brethren in such good form.

"Homosexuals and lesbians seldom are happy people. Theirs is a relationship that is unnatural, one not bound by fidelity, trust, or loyalty, and one totally lacking in the meaningful family relationships that marriage offers. Homosexuality often espouses emotional problems because of the constant insecurity inherent in a relationship neither sanctioned by nor protected by the law." July 1974 ensign

Looks like TSCC was putting forward an argument for gay marriage back in '74.

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Posted by: a nonny mouse ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 10:44AM

"ssa" or same-sex attraction is a fake term used primarily by the LDS and Catholic churches to avoid using commonly accepted terms such as sexual identity, sexual orientation, or homosexuality that more accurately indicate that sexual orientation is an intrinsic part of one's nature. SSA also sounds sort of like a psychological disorder or disease, so it using that term makes it seem like it can be dealt with as such. Don't freaking use that stupid fakey term! When Mormons use that term you should challenge it - it's not a real term and it's insulting to gays and lesbians.

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Posted by: order66 ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 02:02PM

http://jhuston.com/half_first_draft.htm#_Toc293394244

Homosexuality



Not born homosexual

Apostle Boyd K. Packer, October 1976 General Conference, “To Young Men Only”
“There is a falsehood that some are born with an attraction to their own kind, with nothing they can do about it. They are just "that way" and can only yield to those desires. That is a malicious and destructive lie. While it is a convincing idea to some, it is of the devil. No one is locked into that kind of life. From our premortal we were directed into a physical body. There is no mismatching of bodies and spirits. Boys are to become men --masculine, manly men --ultimately to become husbands and fathers. No one is predestined to a perverted use of these powers.”



Defend yourself

Boyd K. Packer, “To Young Men Only,” General Conference, Oct. 1976
“It was intended that we use this power only with our partner in marriage. I repeat, very plainly, physical mischief with another man is forbidden. It is forbidden by the Lord. “There are some men who entice young men to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist. “While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done. “After patient encouragement he blurted out, ‘I hit my companion.’ “ ‘Oh, is that all,’ I said in great relief. “ ‘But I floored him,” he said. “After learning a little more [his companion was gay], my response was ‘Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn’t have been well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way.’ “I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.”



Joseph F. Smith homosexual

Dr. Michael Quinn, Mormon historian, Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, p. 128
“Grant did not live to see the irony in his only patriarchal appointment. By May 1946 Joseph F. [Smith, Church Patriarch] was incapacitated with a back injury, and the First Presidency asked three stake patriarchs to serve those seeking patriarchal blessings from the Presiding Patriarch. This echoed the era of ‘acting patriarchs’ appointed during the office’s ten-year vacancy. His illness continued into the summer, but in July the hierarchy was stunned to learn that Patriarch Joseph F. Smith was homosexual. Publicly they cited ‘ill health’ as reason for his resignation and released him at October 1946 conference. “The former patriarch soon moved with his family to Hawaii. The First Presidency instructed the stake president there to prohibit him from speaking or engaging in other church privileges....“The hierarchy did not allow Patriarch Smith to return to any church privileges for eleven years.”



An ugly sin

Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 78
“Homosexuality is an ugly sin, repugnant to those who find no temptation in it, as well as to many past offenders who are seeking a way out of its clutches. It is embarrassing and unpleasant as a subject for discussion but because of its prevalence, the need to warn the uninitiated, and the desire to help those who may already be involved in it, it is discussed in this chapter.”



Masturbation leads to homosexuality

W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 78
“... it [masturbation] too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation – practiced with another person of the same sex – and thence into total homosexuality.”



It is sinful

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, v. 2, “Homosexuality,” by Victor L. Brown
“... it is clear that any sexual relationship other than that between a legally wedded heterosexual husband and wife is sinful. The divine mandate of marriage between man and woman puts in perspective why homosexual acts are offensive to God. They repudiate the gift and the Giver of eternal life.”



Don’t think about it

Dallin H. Oaks, “Same-Gender Attraction,” Ensign, October 1995
“Because Satan desires that "all men might be miserable like unto himself"(2 Ne. 2:27), his most strenuous efforts are directed at encouraging those choices and actions that will thwart God's plan for his children. He seeks to undermine the principle of individual accountability, to persuade us to misuse our sacred powers of procreation, to discourage marriage and childbearing by the worthy men and women, and to confuse what is meant to be male or female....
“In all of this, the devil, who has no body, seeks to persuade mortals to corrupt their bodies by ‘choos[ing] eternal death, according to the will of the flesh . . . , which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring [them] down to hell, that he may reign over [them] in his own kingdom’ (2 Ne. 2:29).
“The First Presidency has declared that ‘there is a distinction between [1] immoral thoughts and feelings and [2] participating in either immoral heterosexual or any homosexual behavior.’ {4} Although immoral thoughts are less serious than immoral behavior, such thoughts also need to be resisted and repented of because we know that ‘our thoughts will also condemn us’ (Alma 12:14). Immoral thoughts (and the less serious feelings that lead to them) can bring about behavior that is sinful.”

Dallin H. Oaks, “Same-Gender Attraction,” Ensign, October 1995
“Applying the First Presidency's distinction to the question of same-sex relationships, we should distinguish between (1) homosexual (or lesbian) ‘thoughts and feelings’ (which should be resisted and redirected), and (2) ‘homosexual behavior’ (which is a serious sin).
“We should note that the words homosexual, lesbian, and Gay are adjectives to describe particular thoughts, feelings or behaviors. We should refrain from using these words as nouns to identify particular conditions or specific persons. Our religious doctrine dictates this usage. It is wrong to use these words to denote a condition, because this implies that a person is consigned by birth to a circumstance in which he or she has no choice in respect to the critically important matter of sexual behavior.
“Feelings are another matter. Some kinds of feelings seem to be inborn. Others are traceable to mortal experiences. Still other feelings seem to be acquired from a complex interaction of ‘nature and nurture.’ All of us have some feelings we did not choose, but the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us that we still have the power to resist and reform our feelings (as needed) and to assure that they do not lead us to entertain inappropriate thoughts or to engage in sinful behavior.
“Different persons have different physical characteristics and different susceptibilities to the various physical and emotional pressures we may encounter in our childhood and adult environments. We did not choose these personal susceptibilities either, but we do choose and will be accountable for the attitudes, priorities, behavior, and ‘lifestyle’ we engraft upon them.
“Essential to our doctrinal position on these matters is the difference between our freedom and our agency. Our freedom can be limited by various conditions of mortality, but god's gift of agency cannot be limited by outside forces, because it is the basis for our accountability to him. The contrast between freedom and agency can be illustrated in the context of a hypothetical progression from feelings to thoughts to behavior to addiction. This progression can be seen on a variety of matters, such as gambling and the use of tobacco and alcohol.”



Should feel guilty

Dallin H. Oaks, television interview on December 3, 1986, answer not telecast; excerpts printed in "Apostle Reaffirms Church's Position on Homosexuality," Church News, 14 Feb. 1987, pp. 10, 12.
"The person that's working [to resist] those tendencies ought not to feel himself to be a pariah. Now, quite a different thing is sexual relations outside of marriage. A person engaging in that kind of behavior should well feel guilt. They should well feel themselves estranged from God, who has given commandments against that kind of behavior. It's not surprising to me that they would feel estranged from their church. What surprises me is that they would feel that the Church can revoke God's commandments....”



Don’t marry

B. Hinckley, Reverence and Morality, p. 47
"Marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations or practices."



Heinous sin

Spencer W. Kimball, "President Kimball Speaks Out on Morality," LDS New Era, Nov. 1980, Page 39

"This heinous homosexual sin is of the ages. Many cities and civilizations have gone out of existence because of it. It was present in Israel’s wandering days, tolerated by the Greeks, and found in the baths of corrupt Rome."



Overcome tendencies

Gordon B. Hinckley, Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley, p. 9

The Lord has proclaimed that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and is intended to be an eternal relationship bonded by trust and fidelity. Latter-day Saints, of all people, should marry with this sacred objective in mind. Marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations or practices, which first should clearly be overcome with a firm and fixed determination never to slip to such practices again.



Homosexuality the sin of the ages

Spencer W. Kimball, BYU Speeches of the Year, 1965, p. 24

This heinous homosexual sin is of the ages. Many cities and civilizations have gone out of existence because of it. It was present in Israel's wandering days, tolerated by the Greeks, and found in the baths of corrupt Rome. In Exodus, the law required death for the culprit who had sex play with animals, the deviate who committed incest, or the depraved one who had homosexual or other vicious practices.



Aternative lifestyles end families

James E. Faust, Finding Light in a Dark World, p. 73

Alternatives to the legal and loving marriage between a man and a woman are helping to unravel the fabric of human society. That fabric, of course, is the family. These so-called alternative lifestyles cannot be accepted as right because they frustrate God's commandment for a life-giving union of male and female within a legal marriage (see Gen. 1:28). If practiced by all adults, these lifestyles would mean the end of family.



Sins to fornicate, self-abuse, molest children or be homosexual

Ezra Taft Benson, Ensign, November 1983

He will not commit adultery “nor do anything like unto it.” (Doctrine and Covenants 59:6.) This means fornication, homosexual behavior, self-abuse, child molestation, or any other sexual perversions.



Death penalty for homosexuality

Spencer W. Kimball, BYU Speeches of the Year, 1965, p. 25

I do not find in the Bible the modern terms "petting" nor "homosexuality," yet I found numerous scriptures which forbade such acts under by whatever names they might be called. I could not find the term "homosexuality," but I did find numerous places where the Lord condemned such a practice with such vigor that even the death penalty was assessed.



Homosexuality leads to emotional problems

Lindsay M. Curtis, Ensign, July 1974

Homosexuals and lesbians seldom are happy people. Theirs is a relationship that is unnatural, one not bound by fidelity, trust, or loyalty, and one totally lacking in the meaningful family relationships that marriage offers. Homosexuality often espouses emotional problems because of the constant insecurity inherent in a relationship neither sanctioned by nor protected by the law. Because there is no legal bond, homosexuality too often encourages, or at least permits, promiscuity. To say that “no one gets hurt” is presumptive. Homosexuals are hurt by the unacceptability of the relationship, not only by society, but also by themselves. This is evidenced by their almost universal desire that their children (if they have any) not follow the same pattern. Someone does get hurt. There is harm in homosexuality. Many homosexuals seek to introduce others into their practice, often those in their tender, impressionable years. Many studies have indicated that such early homosexual experience may interfere with normal sexual adjustment in subsequent marriage.



Homosexuals cause corruption

Bruce R. McConkie, Ensign, November 1980

Crime, immorality, abortions, and homosexual abominations are fast becoming the norm of life among the wicked and ungodly. The world will soon be as corrupt as it was in the days of Noah.



Gay Life is furtive and shifty

Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 275

The homosexual life tends to be a furtive, shifty, concealed life. This abnormal involvement with a person of one's own sex can be only barren and desolate, having for its purpose only temporary physical satisfaction. There is no future in it but only a stirring moment and a dead past.



Homosexual tendencies can be controlled

Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 276

Homosexual tendencies can be controlled. "God made me that way," some say, as they rationalize and excuse themselves for their perversions. "I can't help it," they add. This is blasphemy. Is man not made in the image of God, and does he think God to be "that way"? Man is responsible for his own sins. It is possible that he may rationalize and excuse himself until the groove is so deep he cannot get out without great difficulty, but this he can do. Temptations come to all people. The difference between the reprobate and the worthy person is generally that one yielded and the other resisted.



An extension of homosexual practices - beastiality

Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness , p. 77

Sin in sex practices tends to have a "snowballing" effect. As the restraints fall away, Satan incites the carnal man to ever-deepening degeneracy in his search for excitement until in many instances he is lost to any former considerations of decency. Thus it is that through the ages, perhaps as an extension of homosexual practices, men and women have sunk even to seeking sexual satisfactions with animals.

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Posted by: sherlock ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 03:22PM

That's great. Thanks.

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Posted by: AmIDarkNow? ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 04:02PM

+ 2
Saved all that!

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Posted by: cskawi ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 02:13PM

I watched a documentary called " prop 8 the mormon proposition" it was very touching and emotional, my girlfriend was crying by the end of it. It shows very detailed involvement of the church in prop 8. Its a bit forceful against the church so I don't know if it would be to opinionated for what you are looking for. I highly recommend it . I was able to watch it on netflix.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2011 02:14PM by cskawi.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 03:32PM

ELDER OAKS: We are sometimes asked about whether marriage is a remedy for these feelings that we have been talking about. President Hinckley, faced with the fact that apparently some had believed it to be a remedy, and perhaps that some Church leaders had even counseled marriage as the remedy for these feelings, made this statement: “Marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations or practices.” To me that means that we are not going to stand still to put at risk daughters of God who would enter into such marriages under false pretenses or under a cloud unknown to them. Persons who have this kind of challenge that they cannot control could not enter marriage in good faith.

On the other hand, persons who have cleansed themselves of any transgression and who have shown their ability to deal with these feelings or inclinations and put them in the background, and feel a great attraction for a daughter of God and therefore desire to enter marriage and have children and enjoy the blessings of eternity — that’s a situation when marriage would be appropriate

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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 03:57PM

Don't forget about the ELECTROSHOCK "therapy" given to gays back in the '80s at BYU.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,13104

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Posted by: AmIDarkNow? ( )
Date: November 04, 2011 04:01PM

Maybe this will help.

http://www.ldsresources.info/professionals/bradshaw.shtml

BYU microbiologist William Bradshaw web page about homosexuality is not a choice.

http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=442

Fantastic site, massive references for the Homosexual question in mormonism.

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