then why didn't she try to run away when she was in public when she had the chance too? Why did she at first deny who she was and speak in biblical language when the cops in Sandy approached her? She may now be remembering things differently that what really happened.

She was a kid and had gone into survival mode. She didn't care who Brian David Mitchell was or what he claimed -- she just wanted to survive and to protect her family.

And if Brian David Mitchell actually thought he was a prophet why did he kidnap Elizabeth instead of revealing God's will to her folks? Why did he hide from the law instead of bringing God's divine lightning down on the apostate police force?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 03:59PM by Susan I/S.

when a person is so *traumatized* in the aftermath of their horrible abduction that they want to play themselves in a movie made about their abduction story ?..... of course Liz is so devoted to such a project that she would have stuck with it even if Mitchell had been used to play himself too..... for the sake of all the abduction victims out there! OF COURSE!

so Liz gets abducted by a nut case MORmON fundie who is trying to strictly model his life after original MORmON ideals, so what does Liz after her terrible ordeal, besides offering to play her terribly traumatized BUT also remarkably recovered self in movies & sucking up PR attention, - go on an LDS mission to peddle the CRAP religious package that was an integral part of her abduction in the first place. *Smart*!

(and when will the Smarts get smart enough to shut their stupid mouths?)

SFB! guess what that stands for? name a syndrome for it!

"She was a kid and had gone into survival mode. She didn't care who Brian David Mitchell was or what he claimed -- she just wanted to survive and to protect her family."

Stockholm syndrome involves a victim bonded with his or her captors and coming to admire and think highly of them. So you're claiming this happened although all along Elizabeth recognized that her captors were completely full of it? You're explanation fails.

"And if Brian David Mitchell actually thought he was a prophet why did he kidnap Elizabeth instead of revealing God's will to her folks? Why did he hide from the law instead of bringing God's divine lightning down on the apostate police force?"

Interesting diversionary tactic. The topic is what Elizabeth thought, not what Mitchell thought.

However logic tells me that a thirteen year old girl abducted at knifepoint, threatened with the death of her family and raped repeatedly isn't going to do much thinking at all beyond "How do I survive this."

Anyone who tries to claim that she did or did not believe Mitchell was a prophet is simply kidding themselves. The only clue you actually have of what she believes is what she's said. Has she ever said she believed Mitchell was a prophet?

I didn't think so.

"In the final analysis, emotionally bonding with an abuser is actually a strategy for survival for victims of abuse and intimidation."

http://www.mental-health-matters.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=167

And that pretty well sums up why Elizabeth did what she did during her captivity and immediately following her rescue and why she is willing to participate in Mitchell's prosecution now.

The fact is that Mitchell is not and was not a prophet -- he was a sexual predator who abducted and assaulted an innocent young girl.

Now I have to wonder why you even care whether or not Elizabeth "believed" Mitchell was a prophet. What's your stake in this?

H. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> then why didn't she try to run away when she was
> in public when she had the chance too? Why did she
> at first deny who she was and speak in biblical
> language when the cops in Sandy approached her?
> She may now be remembering things differently that
> what really happened.

It's called fear.

Presumably, you have heard of it.

" It's called fear.
Presumably, you have heard of it."

Liz was terribly afraid of Mitchell, thats why she bit him! ...
presumably, you have heard about that...

yah, she bit him, out of fear, but she did not ever run, out of fear.

(It's called BS.
Presumably, you have heard of it.)

Lucky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> " It's called fear.
> Presumably, you have heard of it."
>
> Liz was terribly afraid of Mitchell, thats why she
> bit him! ...
> presumably, you have heard about that...
>
> yah, she bit him, out of fear, but she did not
> ever run, out of fear.
>
> (It's called BS.
> Presumably, you have heard of it.)

So, you figure that a scared 14-year-old girl kidnap and rape victim would act rationally? Yes. Of course they do. All the time.

And if you believe your own BS, I have three mountains in Wales and half of Nebraska to sell you. And I can offer you first refusal on a really dinky little project to turn the Grand Canyon into a landfill site...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 06:42PM by matt.

matt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lucky Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > " It's called fear.
> > Presumably, you have heard of it."
> >
> > Liz was terribly afraid of Mitchell, thats why
> she
> > bit him! ...
> > presumably, you have heard about that...
> >
> > yah, she bit him, out of fear, but she did not
> > ever run, out of fear.
> >
> > (It's called BS.
> > Presumably, you have heard of it.)
>
> So, you figure that a scared 14-year-old girl
> kidnap and rape victim would act rationally? Yes.
> Of course they do. All the time.
>
> And if you believe your own BS, I have three
> mountains in Wales and half of Nebraska to sell
> you. And I can offer you first refusal on a really
> dinky little project to turn the Grand Canyon into
> a landfill site...

Patti Hearst didn't run either and she had more opportunities, was older and much more wordly

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> matt Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lucky Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > " It's called fear.
> > > Presumably, you have heard of it."
> > >
> > > Liz was terribly afraid of Mitchell, thats
> why
> > she
> > > bit him! ...
> > > presumably, you have heard about that...
> > >
> > > yah, she bit him, out of fear, but she did
> not
> > > ever run, out of fear.
> > >
> > > (It's called BS.
> > > Presumably, you have heard of it.)
> >
> > So, you figure that a scared 14-year-old girl
> > kidnap and rape victim would act rationally?
> Yes.
> > Of course they do. All the time.
> >
> > And if you believe your own BS, I have three
> > mountains in Wales and half of Nebraska to sell
> > you. And I can offer you first refusal on a
> really
> > dinky little project to turn the Grand Canyon
> into
> > a landfill site...
>
> Patti Hearst didn't run either and she had more
> opportunities, was older and much more wordly

Yes, that's true, Bona Dea. I'd forgotten about that case. Though it was big news, back then. She did jail time, if I recall.

matt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bona dea Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > matt Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Lucky Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > " It's called fear.
> > > > Presumably, you have heard of it."
> > > >
> > > > Liz was terribly afraid of Mitchell, thats
> > why
> > > she
> > > > bit him! ...
> > > > presumably, you have heard about that...
> > > >
> > > > yah, she bit him, out of fear, but she did
> > not
> > > > ever run, out of fear.
> > > >
> > > > (It's called BS.
> > > > Presumably, you have heard of it.)
> > >
> > > So, you figure that a scared 14-year-old girl
> > > kidnap and rape victim would act rationally?
> > Yes.
> > > Of course they do. All the time.
> > >
> > > And if you believe your own BS, I have three
> > > mountains in Wales and half of Nebraska to
> sell
> > > you. And I can offer you first refusal on a
> > really
> > > dinky little project to turn the Grand Canyon
> > into
> > > a landfill site...
> >
> > Patti Hearst didn't run either and she had more
> > opportunities, was older and much more wordly
>
> Yes, that's true, Bona Dea. I'd forgotten about
> that case. Though it was big news, back then. She
> did jail time, if I recall.

yeah.she did. The SLA forced her to help them rob a bank after keeping her locked in a closet for weeks with a blindfold and raping her. They convinced her that her parents didn't care since they couldn't feed the entire state of California and that the FBI would kill her on sight. When she was finally arrested, she was so scared that she wet her pants.

I already own all that property you mentioned, & so much more!
BUT I will happily buy it AGAIN, from you, if it will make you happy. (All I ask in return is that I get to see the video when you try to deposit the payment at the bank.) Is it a deal!

H. I agree. There is more to this story in my opinion.

by parents who were naive enough to invite absolute strangers to work around their home. I think few 13 year-old girls are going to have their wits about them enough to take control of a situation like her kidnapping-- she thought the lives of her family were at stake.

I may not respect her faith, but I respect her struggle. She did the best she knew how to and survived.

angsty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> by parents who were naive enough to invite
> absolute strangers to work around their home. I
> think few 13 year-old girls are going to have
> their wits about them enough to take control of a
> situation like her kidnapping-- she thought the
> lives of her family were at stake.
>
> I may not respect her faith, but I respect her
> struggle. She did the best she knew how to and
> survived.


Do some people think she should have followed the edict of Spencer W. Kimball and suffered death rather than bringing disgrace and dishonour on herself and her family by allowing herself to be raped?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 07:30PM by matt.

But Mormons believe crazier things, so who knows.

If she is so certain that Mitchell is neither a prophet nor a holy man, then precisely how is she certain that Joseph Smith WAS one--to the point that she's even now on a mission preaching the greater glory of him and his church?

There's more there than meets the eye in that whole episode, that is for sure. But at the same time, Ed Smart now trots her out like a show pony at every opportunity to show how "healthy" and "recovered" she is. . . and I happen to think it just ain't so. There is more than a faint whiff of that "priesthood authority" stink coming off of this whole story that Elizabeth Smart was taught never ever to question. For that very reason I don't buy her courtroom "testimony" 100% either: her responses were a little too pat, smooth, and perfect for her to have honestly testified, given this seven year time-lag. I think daddy and her bishop gave her a coaching.

Just sayin'.

You mean you are not summarily buying the Smart's story?

That means Liz will never let you star in a movie with her!
Liz might even bite you if you try to get too close to her
(because she is scared!!!)(and then brag about it in court) & everyone wants to get close to Liz Smart, you know!

Just look at the suffering you have heaped on yourself already
-being deprived of the chance to be in Liz's good graces! all that just for not going along with the smart story. Next thing you know you could be going to prison! ask Richard Ricci how that works, oh thats right, you cant.... Richard is dead.

Liz will let you take her on an extended trip, BUT ONLY if you can make solid certifiable bonded guarantees that she will get to play herself in the movie about it when the trip is over (& the adventure gets relabeled as an abduction). Dont worry, Liz wont let her LDS mission interfere with any veritable movie deals! Just guess who the abductor will be once Liz returns home! Of course you will be going to prison too, but it will be so worth it to be part of the grand Liz Smart legacy & to get to be around glamorous Liz. As a side perk, you will be publicly attributed as having some pretty incredible sexual prowess, not that its real, mind you!

IF you can make this movie deal happen then please contact the Smarts right away. If not then just worship them at the specified distance for loser run of the mill regular people.

WHat some people want to know: how many times did Patti Hearst bite her captors? since Patti was brought up.
(& how much longer will the Smarts continue to pee in the faces of real abduction victims with their ridiculous PR grabbing antics.)

When you aren't a 13 year old girl who was abducted at knifepoint and was repeatedly raped.

raptorjesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When you aren't a 13 year old girl who was
> abducted at knifepoint and was repeatedly raped.


Yes. Good point. Let's hope some people can understand it.

The first hting people need to understand, is that kidnappers think of all avenues... They know they won't always be able to keep you from contacting other people. Especially if they have to move around with you. They will lie to you, to get you to cooperate. They tell you all kinds of things. Stuff like:

"Your parents thought I was a profit, so they told me to take you as my wife."

Or

"I left a runaway note in your parent's bedroom. So nobody knows you were kidnpped, they all think you ran away from home."

Or

"I have friends... So if cops ever question us, you WILL deny who you are, or tell them you ran away from home. Otherwise, even if I do get arrested, my friends will still be walking free. I'll have them kill your family! Then there won't even BE any point in going home!"

This could be the reaosn she would deny who she is, or say things like "I know you think I'm that girl who ran away, but I'm not..."

There is also stockholm syndrome to consider. It is very real. Kidnap victims often do begin to sympathize with their captor's cause, or even develop a codependent feelings toward the captor. Things like, "He feeds me, he houses me, he protects me", etc., etc.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 08:14PM by melissa3839.

IF she thought those things then she didn't have a good family upbringing. No way would I believe an evil person if I had been abducted. She would know her parents would never believe she was a child who wanted to runaway. If she had those tendencies we would have heard about them. And I agree....much coaching could have gone on between the time she returned and now. Sorry, but she was/is young and if she has a church telling her anything at all regarding this incident she would obey. Isn't the Mormon church all about obeying???

Being afraid when someone threatens to kill your family has nothing to do with how close you are to your parents, or how good you were raised. Anybody would be scared of that.

If a man will sneak in your house, hold a weapon to your throat, then kidnap and rape you-- then I would take a death threat from him VERY seriously.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 08:25PM by melissa3839.

"If a man will sneak in your house, hold a weapon to your throat, then kidnap and rape you-- then I would take a death threat from him VERY seriously."

Would you bite him too,later on ? & then brag about it later in court? (& still expect people to take you seriously? )

honestone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IF she thought those things then she didn't have a
> good family upbringing. No way would I believe an
> evil person if I had been abducted. She would know
> her parents would never believe she was a child
> who wanted to runaway. If she had those tendencies
> we would have heard about them. And I
> agree....much coaching could have gone on between
> the time she returned and now. Sorry, but she
> was/is young and if she has a church telling her
> anything at all regarding this incident she would
> obey. Isn't the Mormon church all about obeying???

According to her testimony, he threatened to kill her and her family if she tried to escape. She did try once and only got a little ways. She had no way of knowing if he had people helping him who could kill her parents and siblings. He also came very close to kidnapping her cousin.He would have succeeded if he hadn't knocked some stuff over which woke everyone up. That gave her the impression that he had more power than he did.

Ed Smart absolutely insists that Elizabeth was not a victim of the Stockholm Syndrome-
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/28/earlyshow/main5271096.shtml

Well even if stockholm syndrome was not an issue, still, there's what I said in the last post:

"Being afraid when someone threatens to kill your family has nothing to do with how close you are to your parents, or how good you were raised. Anybody would be scared of that.

If a man will sneak in your house, hold a weapon to your throat, then kidnap and rape you-- then I would take a death threat from him VERY seriously."

He threatened to kill her family if she tried to run away. And telling anyone who she is would be counted as a runaway attempt. Even if he is behind bars, he could have friends do it, which is probably what he told her. People like him have some NASTY friends... I would never feel safe, even if he was in prison.

But on the flip side-- him being in prison for 8 years, without anybody attempting to kill my family-- might make me come to the realization that he didn't have any friends who would kill for him after all. So 8 years of being safe, getitng therapy, and healing might make me brave enough to face him in court. Brave enough to do a lot of things!



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 08:37PM by melissa3839.

H. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ed Smart absolutely insists that Elizabeth was not
> a victim of the Stockholm Syndrome-
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/28/earlysho
> w/main5271096.shtml

I have read that too, but I am not entirely convinced. I doubt the syndrome manifests itself the same way in all victims. Elizabeth apparently didn't get to the point that she identified with them, but she was dependent on them for everything and her life was in their hands. That alone would make her want to please them whether she like them or identified with them or not.

If she had been uber-coached, they would have weeded that part right out. It reeks of women-as-property that we all are so familiar with as an integrated part of the cult. I think she's sincere, although it is very unusual for a rape victim to want to re-experience the event, even as an actress. That smacks of someone wanting to milk some $$ out of the whole thing, under the guise of "helping other victims."

HOnestly, if the SL Temple were bombed (my personal fantasy), TSCC would be selling the DVD and accompanying testiphonies six weeks later. "Soon to be made into a major motion picture....."

There are plenty of actresses who were raped or molested in real life, and then agreed to play a rape/molestation victim in a movie.

And we can't forget-- its been 8 years! That's plenty of time for someone to have come to grips with the past, and grown stronger.

No, not eveyrone does. But some do!

And actually... On the darker more "taboo" side.... There are some rape victims who later took up a rape fetish in the bedroom, as a twisted way of dealing with it. Its an old chess game strategy-- "when there is no way out, the best thing to do is move further in". There are all different degrees of healing processes, so we cannot say with conviction "No rape vicitm would ever want to act out a similar event".

It doesn't mean that's the case with Elizabeth Smart. It just means some people can deal with it, on many degrees, and some people cannot.



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 08:58PM by melissa3839.

You will do anything to survive and to avoid pain, and to protect your family from harm.

You struggle, until it overwhelms you, and you want to die. Then, you just don't care anymore.

That's how PTSD is born. I was never the same.

It took me many years to finally make the connection between my abuser and his beloved Mormon church, even though he constantly screamed scriptures at me, that women are property, "possessions" as GBH says it, and that he was the priesthood holder, and he had God-given dominion over me.

I was a faithful Mormon, and never did anything wrong (didn't dare). All I ever asked him to do was to stop beating me.

I get sick to my stomach when people blame Elizabeth Smart for any of what happened to her!

This is also true. Survival mode makes you numb to your situation, until it totally overthrows you.

& did you ask to play yourself if a movie was made about your ordeal ?

If I had been given enough time to calm down and heal from it, I possibly might.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 09:08PM by melissa3839.

The movie in question never showed Elizabeth's ordeal. It mainly showed her beofre and when she was found. The movie focused on her family and she wasn't onscreen for most of it.WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED BETWEEN ELIZABETH AND MITCHELL DIDN'T COME OUT UNTIL THE COMPETENCY HEARING.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 09:28PM by bona dea.

True as well. Elizabeth was told by her attourneys not to speak in public about the details of her ordeal, OR the trial facts, until the trial. As are many victims.

The reason is because doing so will help the defense attorneys come up with ideas on how to get the defendant off the charges.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 09:09PM by melissa3839.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Them movie in question never showed Elizabeth's
> ordeal. It mainly showed her beofre and when she
> was found. The movie focused on her family and she
> wasn't onscreen for most of it. WHAT ACTUALLY
> HAPPENED BETWEEN ELIZABETH AND MITCHELL DIDN'T
> COME OUT UNTIL THE COMPETENCY HEARING.

So you mean there is still some juicy virgin material left untold that could be used for another Movie that tells more of the Liz Smart ordeal ?

SO another movie about Liz Smart could still be made ?

AND Liz still has a chance to play herself & become a star!

(Yahoo!) Mormon god works in wonderous ways!

Lucky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bona dea Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Them movie in question never showed Elizabeth's
> > ordeal. It mainly showed her beofre and when
> she
> > was found. The movie focused on her family and
> she
> > wasn't onscreen for most of it. WHAT ACTUALLY
> > HAPPENED BETWEEN ELIZABETH AND MITCHELL DIDN'T
> > COME OUT UNTIL THE COMPETENCY HEARING.
>
> So you mean there is still some juicy virgin
> material left untold that could be used for
> another Movie that tells more of the Liz Smart
> ordeal ?
>
> SO another movie about Liz Smart could still be
> made ?
>
> AND Liz still has a chance to play herself &
> become a star!
>
> (Yahoo!) Mormon god works in wonderous ways!

Your lack of compassion for a child who was stolen from her bed in the middle of the night and held captive in miserable conditions for 9 months and repeatedly raped is underwhelming. Wow!