Just wanting to get some opinions here, since I think that people who post here are largely rational.

Suppose that I discover that my wife is cheating on me. Am I still morally obliged to remain faithful to her?

Unless you have both decided that going outside the marriage is fair game, you're cheating.

If a spouse is cheating, you either have to walk away from the marriage, renegotiate what the marriage means, of just deal with it. Sneaking off and cheating yourself isn't fair or wise.

Renegotiating the marriage could be as simple as saying, "I know you are having an affair, and I too will now be considering it fair game to have affairs also from this point on". Then if she stays, she knows what she's staying for.

The problem with renegotiating the marriage is that she will divorce me if she knows that I am cheating (hypocritical, huh?). So what's wrong with that? Well, she'll take half of my stuff, that I've worked quite hard for through my life, while she's laid in bed and watched TV. I'd really rather not provoke a divorce. I'd really rather keep my stuff.

On the other hand, I'm not about to still have sex with her (not excited about the prospect of having another man's semen, that he's left behind in her, on my junk), and I'm not too enthusiastic about becoming celibate for the remainder of my natural life.

It sounds as if the marriage is already over. If you don't want her to take half of your stuff, then start getting your finances in order, check with a lawyer about your state laws and adultery, and hire a private investigator to catch her in the act.

Basically, get your ducks in a row...because the end is near.

As for you having exramarital sex, it is still cheating. As someone who has been divorced twice by adultery (on the other person's part), I don't play games with this...I understand and empathize with your frustration...but please know that having sex for revenge is still wrong and will only haunt you.


The right thing to do is to get your house in order and divorce her...then have all the responsible fun you want :)

Already checked with my lawyer. This jurisdiction (like all, except for New York) follows the "no-fault" regime. Whether or not she cheated is irrelevant to whether she gets half my stuff in a divorce. So why in the hell do I want to divorce her?

Is being miserable and keeping your stuff worth it to you? Only you can answer this question.....

My state doesn't recognize adultery either...however, I can tell you with evidence and a good lawyer, the likelyhood of her getting all or even half is low.

It all depends on how much you are willing to put up with just to keep material items....I do understand the frustration. My TBM ex tried to get me to pay alimony because I made more then he did....he didn't want to work a decent job...and wanted to cheat, but still have me foot the bill...

That's not what my lawyer told me. My lawyer told me that the court would not even look at any evidence of infidelity when determining property distribution.

It seems like you don't want to hear, nor like to hear what people are saying.

Yes, if you decide to have sex with someone, you're cheating. Which means you're no better than her if that's what's already going on.

If you don't want to be married to her and want to move on to other potential relationships, it's simple.

End the marriage if you're miserable and move on. Stuff is just stuff. Part of marriage is that both parties will get stuff when the marriage breaks, for whatever reason.

But ultimately - it's just stuff. Stuff can be replaced.

You brought up a great topic that many do not think about. Many people who have affairs do not use protection. Diseases of all kinds can enter your marriage bed then. It is disgusting. So sad that people who committed themselves to a certain individual now don't care what disease they bring home. It is a huge problem and the reason for many a divorce- the affair is one thing....but giving a good person a disease when they were always faithful to their spouse is quite another.

I didn't take that route. It was the second one that I knew about and decided to file for divorce. After about 4 months together in the house, we had people in working on the house so that we could sell it, I decided to stay and work on the marriage. I never considered it fair game to have an affair. That he cheated, I felt, didn't give me the right to step out on him. Did I go party and get phone numbers, hell ya! But in the end, I decided to stay for my daughter. I couldn't imagine her not having both of us in the house and if what he said was true that he'd do anything to keep us together and that I still loved him, it allowed us to work on our issues. We were in counseling for about a year. Leaving or staying was going to be hard, and I chose to stay. Trust me when I say, IF another affair happens, there is no going back. Everything that needed to be said happened in counseling, there will be no if, ands or buts if it ever happens again. I can tell you this, I love my husband more today than ever in the total time we've been together. It's been 3 yrs since his last affair.

One huge element of recovery I believe in is that we learn our own moral centers, not those imposed from outside of ourselves...

Personally, I don't think you're likely to overcome the upbringing you were raised with (some have, however, of course).

Free free to test that one if you need to broaden your experience, however...

For me, having been cheated on in a committed relationship, I know where my own moral compass points... Am I immune to temptation? No, of course not...

As I see it, the fundamental axiom I try to operate on is whether I'm causing harm to others and to myself... That, of course, reduces to a lot of complexity and decisions that are esentially relative...

And that operates whether I have a faith in any sort of Divine Being or not... If faith helps one move towards those ends and ideals, it can be worthwhile even if it won't withstand objective scrutiny... But it is an internal compass, not an external one...

The LDS Church operates strictly on external factors...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2010 11:59PM by SL Cabbie.

No...

...well, you could. From my own experience: I cheated. He is a wonderful man, but I still cheated, and it tore me apart. My husband would have been justified, but he chose the moral high-ground, and while in some ways that was worse, in others it made me see just what I had done to us.

I don't know. I asked myself that same question and all I could come up with is that I would be a widow and wouldn't have to worry about it..

My hubby cheated. He begged me to cheat in return so we'd be even and be able to salvage our marriage. I didn't though. We ended up working it out, but it's still hard sometimes.

Clearly you need counseling or a divorce.

Can you explain why you think so?

That's not the mark of a healthy relationship for either party.

Well, that's a given.

The question is whether it is better to stay in an such an unhealthy relationship (and cheat) for economical reasons. Divorce is not economical, and I'm not interested in counseling.

The only way that is ethnically ok in this situation is to either: A) Come to the agreement together that your marriage is over, but that you both want to legally stay together for economic reasons or B) End it or C) get couple's counseling to fix it.

But that's just my personal opinion.

If she broke the marriage "contract" (so to speak) then you need to re-negotiate the contract, that is, I mean if you are so fond of your "stuff" and you don't want to give it up but don't want to do what's considered cheating.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2010 01:00AM by winecountrygirl.

So if my brother lies to me I don't believe it gives me any justification to lie to him. I don't want to be a liar.

My husband cheated on me. I never cheated on him -- nor would I. I am not an adulterer. I did, however, separate from him and agree to a divorce so he could marry his next interest.

Morals are based on YOU -- your standards and your values for yourself. Lowering yourself to someone's gutter standard only besmirches you.

Yes, you are morally obligated to remain faithful while you are with her. But it is grounds for divorce you know. Allowed in the Bible. Then you could do what you want. Staying or leaving is never easy. I stayed.....never was quite the same....realized his character just wasn't what I thought it was. He totally disappointed me as a hubby and father. But I continued to love him. Then many yrs. later, he did it again. Should I have left the first time? Maybe so. Then he disappointed his daughters- big time. It is his loss. It is an individual thing, but you repeating what your spouse is doing will only make matters worse. Talk and work it out or leave.

I should clarify....grounds for divorce regarding religious scripture. So there is no reason to feel guilty there.

Well, I don't believe in the Bible or any other "scripture," so no concerns on that front.

My approach mainly derives from a theory of contract. When we married, we legally contracted to be faithful to each other. It's my understanding that when one party breaches a contract, the other party is no longer bound by it.

Perhaps some of the opinions above are tainted by a belief in Judeo-Christianity.

anathema Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Perhaps some of the opinions above are tainted by
> a belief in Judeo-Christianity.

Mine may be, but I doubt it. Honesty is practiced in tribal cultures that have never seen a bible. There are other cultures though where lying is expected, and isn't a moral issue.

I don't lie for perhaps selfish reasons. It makes life better for me. I don't have to pretend one thing, while doing another. I don't have to keep stories straight. I don't have to wish I could talk about something, but it would tip off the lie if I did.

I want to be free to say anything on my mind, within reason. I want there to be only one story to keep straight, not multiple ones. I also want the people around me to do the same.

I want to be the type of person that I want others to be. In short, I don't want to be two faced. I think that I'd probably be that way if I live in a tribal culture that had never heard of the bible too.

Your wife is a liar and a cheat. You don't like it. Why become a lessor person (one with attributes that you don't like) due to her?

I can see that you are in a tough spot, basically live with someone that you will grow to despise, not have sex, just to keep your money. That's not much of a life. I'd find a way to get what you want, at a price you're willing to pay, that doesn't change you into a person with attributes that you don't like. Perhaps the purchase of your freedom would be worth it. You would be buying a life you like.

Ok then. Do you live in SLC? There's tons of hiking trails w/ very steep drop offs. Maybe it's time you took her hiking.

anathema Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> My approach mainly derives from a theory of
> contract. When we married, we legally contracted
> to be faithful to each other. It's my
> understanding that when one party breaches a
> contract, the other party is no longer bound by
> it.

Fair enough.

I agree with earlier posts that suggest you aren't actually seeking advice but rather trying to argue a position you've already decided on.

That being said, cheating is generally regarded as crappy behavior regardless of the health of the marriage.

If you want to be judged by the moral compass of others, I'll tell you that I would absolutely refuse to cheat or pursue any sort of relationship until after a final decree of divorce.

I'd be uninterested in a causal sexual relationship with another woman and wouldn't be okay with lying to a new sexual partner about my marital status.

I also wouldn't be interested in any woman that was okay having a relationship with a married man.

If you don't care about the perception of other people and these factors don't bother you than the moral dilemma seems non existent. Go for it, do what you like.

If you're trying to convince the rest of us that your actions are justified, you have failed.

Hope that provides new perspective that hasn't been expressed already

My husband had two affairs. the first one devestated me, but it was the second one that totally did me in. We had been to counselling, we had "dealt" with the issue (or so I thought) and it truly never occurred to me that DH could possibly do this again. It about killed me.

After the second time, I had a "revenge" affair.

Trust me when I say....DON'T! You will get the bottom of the barrell for partners, nobody decent wants to have an affair with a married person. What you will get are people also cheating on their husbands. You could wind up with your heart broken. You could wind up making her pregnant (some women LIE). You could wind up (believe it or not) with MORE problems and MORE unhappiness and MORE financial burdens than you have NOW. You won't be able to spend holidays with anyone special. It's depressing and worse than you can imagine. You're stuck with seedy hotels every third weekend, and those will get cancelled at the last minute because the married woman you end up with has a life and a family.

You really have two choices. Fix it with your wife or get divorced.

If you want to see others, you really owe it to yourself to get divorced, even if you lose half the house, half the savings, etc. And guess what? As it stands right now, if you DIE she gets it ALL.

I found out my husband of 15 years was having unprotected anonymous sex with men (I first thought it was female hookers). I also got therapy for ME. It was me that became a puddle on a shower stall. It does not matter who he cheated with, or why. He did. I stayed, seperated a couple of times...and finally did what I wish I had done DAY ONE!!! I left and told him I was divorced. I meant it in every way. I did not consider myself a married person, regardless of paperwork of the state and lawyers. What I do, my business. If you have religious moral codes, I guess you follow those during the time it takes for people you do not know to sign papers that say you are now able to date.

That 5 years staying in a marriage as a room mate or living apart but married...that was worse than any divorce. People cheat and blow up a life. Divorce is not the worst thing in the world...no matter how much you loose financially. She did the damage, but no matter what, you will pay a price whether you stay and cheat, stay and live with what she did running around in your head, or leave and divorce. Even married, you can loose all the "stuff". A cheater is a liar. A liar robs you of the ability to trust. Life is too damned short to live like that.

That is my opinion, and I lost a lot financially. Amazing how long ago all this seems....and it was less than 1.5 years ago I walked out that door and never looked back.

Depends. Did she cheat on you with another woman? If so, ask her to video tape it next time.

If with a man, ask her if he has a job. That will pique her interest in examining that relationship.

Fake a reconciliation by demanding she have a VD test to qualify.

Okay, that was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but your question is so pointed that the responses you get are going to be all over the board.

I'm not quite sure what exactly you are asking, however. Are you asking if you can have an affair too? Are you asking if you are obliged to continue as a married couple? Are you asking ... well, what ARE you asking?

It's totally up to you. Don't let anyone tell you what to do. Work it out in your own mind.

Are you totally surprised she had an affair? There are usually signs it's on its way.

From my point of view, kicking her to the curb would be a last resort, but totally acceptable as an outcome.

Ron

I guess I have a different take on this. The issues that would concern me at this point in my life have to do with disease. "Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas." However, in the end result it seems to me that "fidelity" has more to do with ownership than a good loving relationship. Evolutionarily human beings are not well constructed to limit themselves to a single partner. I finally decided that if the relationship serves at least some of my needs, all it takes is a tooth brush, a shower or intimite cleansing and what really happened?

Do you want to be married or don't you?
Everything else has to flow from that.

Your sexual morality is defined by you. If you believe the marital contract becomes null and void in that dept. because she broke that part of the contract then, you just defined it for yourself.

I know people who have felt their affairs were a positive point or aspect of their lives, while others have felt terrible for it.

She might have "laid in bed and watched TV" all day, but I'm sure it couldn't have been easy every evening being at the beck and call of someone as selfish and brainless as you.

My husband cheated on me many times and I am not divorced, although I am separated. I am not in a committed relationship. My husband is very aware that I am in a relationship and having sex with another man. BUT then my husband is also having sex with many people.

I think it comes down to in a committed relationship at least for me. I don't consider myself immoral. I wouldn't have "cheated" on him when we were still together no matter how much sex he was getting on the side, let alone the fact that he fell in love, too.

BUT as for divorce--in every state that I know someone in who got a divorce--it depends on what the wife will go after. My boyfriend and now a coworker of my husband's did get taken to the cleaners. Their wives didn't work (one did part time)--the ex-wives got half of everything (after 26 and 35+ year marriages) AND the wives got HIGH spousal support. The one in the 35+ year marriage will be paying spousal support until he dies unless she remarries or dies.

I've had many people ask me why I didn't take my husband to the cleaners years ago. It isn't my way. He deserves to have a life, too. I'm very capable of earning my own way.

AND in no fault, no the court doesn't want to hear ANYTHING about cheating.

none of the court's business.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2010 12:40AM by winecountrygirl.

The anger and distrust caused by a cheating spouse is one thing. Another thing is what potential sexually transmitted diseases have they exposed you to?

In the biological cess pool we live in trusting a sex partner is serious business and cheating is more than just the emotional part.

You gotta know this stuff when you have sons and daughters.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2010 01:02AM by winecountrygirl.

Excellent blog post by author Jane Smiley -- "Divorce -- it's good for the children."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-smiley/divorce-its-good-for-the-_b_782469.html

BTW -- my vote -- divorce your wife, lose half your stuff. Hands down. It's a very small price to pay for freedom. I was in a similar situation 9 years ago -- sell my house and kick out my girlfriend, or keep the house and rent it to her.

I made money on the deal, but it sure wasn't worth 6 years of headaches until I finally put my foot down and sold the place.

RG

5 kids, and had a well established thriving family. I had problems with her early on in flirting with other men, and in having a few mini-emotional relationships along the way (that I ignored for the most part). For instance, a few weeks after our marriage, I caught her in flirtacious discussion with a tall dark missionary in the hallway at church. I was pissed, and I told on him. I confronted her. She blew it off. After that I kept catching her chatting it up with various guys in the ward. She was very pretty in her younger days. There was the EQ president, a few guys in her YBU classes, a dude at the hospital she worked at. I'm talking long phone conversations, after class discussions, rides in the car on campus, etc. She was a flirt. Eventually it became a bit more serious with the 1st Counselor in the Bishopric. This dude actually called her almost everyday for six months to discuss "church business" - yeah right. To make a long story short, I finally caught her red-handed in a sexual affair, and later found out that it had lasted almost a year. I know, I know, there were many red flags, but it was still the most devastating and shocking moment of my life. Not only because of the affair, but because I still had 5 kids under the age of 14. Plus the risk that she had put me under in terms of disease. Most people think the guys are always the players - not in this case. Women can be ho's too.

I immediately forgave her, which she appreciated, and I told her that I would not divorce her if she would remain faithful to me. Well during the three years that followed, there were times when I could not account for her whereabouts, she did not act like a reformed woman, and I had other evidence that she was still involved with this guy. I was then placed in a predicament - do I divorce her or should I hang around for the kids sake? I ended up hanging around for two more years (5 total years post affair). So basically, I gave her another chance and I was faithful to her for 3 more years, but I began looking at other women after that three year mark. I was not committed after I had evidence of ehr cheating the second time. Turns out that it runs in the family - her sister cheated on her 2nd endowed husband just recently. Those two are a couple of ho's.

My advice, having been through it. Well it's a case by case basis, but in general, I'd say that the length and intensity of the affair are things to consider. The longer and more intense, the more likely she will do it again. I mean, anyone can have a weak moment. Another factor to consider is whether children are involved. It's worth hacking it out if you have children. I miss my kids so much. In the end though, if she's not going to take marriage seriously - then kick her to the curb.

Altho I have been "faithful" to my wife for 46 years, I don't really get why having sex outside of marriage is immoral.

When I was Mo, I thought "infidelity" was immoral, but now that I have left the cult, I can't understand why "infidelity" is automatically "immoral and wrong". It seems to me if a couple wants to have sex with other partners, they can, without violating any universal "moral" law.

Now, lying to a spouse about your extra-marital affairs, that would be immoral.