Inquiring minds want to know....

I mean the plates went whooshing back to Narnia/Heaven...but what happended to the box?

JS was never told he couldn't show that, was he? You'd think an important artifact like that (with gold residue in it) would have been an important thing to keep. Perhaps it is still buried in the official Hill Cumorah?

You know they have enough people up there for the pagent each year...a little organization...a few picks and shovels....just sayin'.

jw the inquizzinator Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Inquiring minds want to know....
>
> I mean the plates went whooshing back to
> Narnia/Heaven...but what happended to the box?
>
> JS was never told he couldn't show that, was he?
> You'd think an important artifact like that (with
> gold residue in it) would have been an important
> thing to keep. Perhaps it is still buried in the
> official Hill Cumorah?
>
> You know they have enough people up there for the
> pagent each year...a little organization...a few
> picks and shovels....just sayin'.

The box became reburied too and nobody could find it. However, Old Joe stated later that it was near the entrance to a HUGE cavern in the Hill Cumorah that contained the Liahona, weaponry, and all kinds of fine, golden artifacts. Nobody ever found that either.

Ron

It probably became slippery and just kept sinking. That happens a lot you know. Buried treasure tends to become slippery too.

Here's a couple of interesting stories that mention the stone box after the plates were removed.
After speaking of the gold plates Martin Harris described a money digging incident that took place after Joseph found the plates. Harris is quoted as saying:

"Three of us took some tools to go to the hill and hunt for more boxes of gold or something, and indeed we found a stone box. We got quite excited about it and dug carefully around it, and by some unseen power it slipped back into the hill. We stood there and looked at it and one of us took a crow-bar and tried to drive it through the lid and hold it, but the bar glanced off and broke off one of the corners of the box. Sometime that box will be found and you will see the corner broken off, and then you will know I have told you the truth" ("The Last Testimony of Martin Harris," by E. Cecil McGavin in The Instructor, October, 1930, Vol. 65, No. 10, pp. 587-589).

In a series of interviews a Mormon writer named Edward Stevenson, who was aquainted with Joseph Smith relates what he was told by an old man living near the Hill Cumorah:

"Questioning him closely he stated that he had seen some good-sized flat stones that had rolled down and lay near the bottom of the hill. This had occurred after the contents of the box had been removed and these stones were doubtless the ones that formerly composed the box. I felt a strong desire to see these ancient relics and told him I would be much pleased to have him inform me where they were to be found. He stated that they had long since been taken away."
(REMINISCENCES OF JOSEPH THE PROPHET, And the Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon by Elder Edward Stevenson, 1893 Salt Lake City, Utah)

Keep your damned plates...just show me that stone box. But, like everything else connected to the Book of Mormon it just up and vanished! Shazam!

There is another story that I read on a Mormon history site that says the "box" was taken by a local farmer and used as a planter. Yeah, right.

Still, it would be perfect for Joe to tell all the skeptics, "I can't show you the plates but I can show you the stone box they came in."

Then Mother Smith could charge the locals two bits a piece to see the stone box. I mean they did that with the mummy from which the Book of Abraham was "translated" didn't they?

Brigham claims that Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith returned the gold plates of the Book of Mormon to the 'Hill Cumorah' in New York. He claims that the the hill 'opend' for them and inside the hill is a huge cave that is stacked with piles of gold plates.

". . . I lived right in the country where the plates were found from which the Book of Mormon was translated, and I know a great many things pertaining to that country, and I know a great many things pertaining to that country.

I believe I will take the liberty to tell you of another circumstance that will be as marvelous as anything can be. This is an incident in the life of Oliver Cowdery, that he did not take the liberty of telling such things in meeting as I take.

I tell these things to you, and I have a motive for doing so. I want to carry them to the ears of my brethren and sisters, and to the children also, that they may grow to an understanding of some things that seem to be entirely hidden from the human family.

Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the Hill Cumorah, which he did.

Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room.

He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light, but that it was just as light as day.

They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in corners and along the walls.

The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: 'This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ.'

I tell you this is coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it so they will not be forgotten and lost." -- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol-19 p38-39, 17 June 1877

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/JournalOfDiscourses3&CISOPTR=9597&REC=19

So, Moroni had to carry all of this shit to Cummorah from Central America. Now, its starting to make sense.

He used his chariot. Oh wait .....

EverAndAnon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brigham claims that Oliver Cowdery and Joseph
> Smith returned the gold plates of the Book of
> Mormon to the 'Hill Cumorah' in New York. He
> claims that the the hill 'opend' for them and
> inside the hill is a huge cave that is stacked
> with piles of gold plates.
>
> ". . . I lived right in the country where the
> plates were found from which the Book of Mormon
> was translated, and I know a great many things
> pertaining to that country, and I know a great
> many things pertaining to that country.
>
> I believe I will take the liberty to tell you of
> another circumstance that will be as marvelous as
> anything can be. This is an incident in the life
> of Oliver Cowdery, that he did not take the
> liberty of telling such things in meeting as I
> take.
>
> I tell these things to you, and I have a motive
> for doing so. I want to carry them to the ears of
> my brethren and sisters, and to the children also,
> that they may grow to an understanding of some
> things that seem to be entirely hidden from the
> human family.
>
> Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when
> he deposited these plates. Joseph did not
> translate all of the plates; there was a portion
> of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book
> of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the
> plates, the angel instructed him to carry them
> back to the Hill Cumorah, which he did.
>
> Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went
> there, the hill opened, and they walked into a
> cave, in which there was a large and spacious
> room.
>
> He says he did not think, at the time, whether
> they had the light of the sun or artificial light,
> but that it was just as light as day.
>
> They laid the plates on a table; it was a large
> table that stood in the room. Under this table
> there was a pile of plates as much as two feet
> high, and there were altogether in this room more
> plates than probably many wagon loads; they were
> piled up in corners and along the walls.
>
> The first time they went there the sword of Laban
> hung upon the wall; but when they went again it
> had been taken down and laid upon the table across
> the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was
> written these words: 'This sword will never be
> sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world
> become the kingdom of our God and his Christ.'
>
> I tell you this is coming not only from Oliver
> Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and
> who understood it so they will not be forgotten
> and lost." -- Brigham Young, Journal of
> Discourses, vol-19 p38-39, 17 June 1877
>
> http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CIS
> OROOT=/JournalOfDiscourses3&CISOPTR=9597&REC=19

This reads just like its out of the pages of Lord of the Rings.

Inquiring minds want to know:

In what language were the words 'This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ.' written?

If the language was not english, who translated and how was the translation done?

What was used to write the words? Magic marker? Etching? Engraving? Chiseled? Quill pen? Exactly how does one write on a sword in the 1830's?

How large were the letters?
How long was the sword?
What was the shape of the sword?
What type of handle was on the sword?
Was the handle made of the same material as the blade?
Was the handle smooth or did it have some type of engraving?

How much dust, if any, was on the sword?

It there was dust on the sword, were there hand prints in the dust from when the sword was moved?

What was the sword made of? Bronze? Iron? Steel? Stainless Steel? Fiberglass? Stone? Pixie Dust?

Were both the scabbard and the sword moved?

Was the sword on top of, underneath, next to the scabbard?

Was there anything written or any other markings on the scabbard? Anything like "Property of Laban?" If found please deposit in nearest mailbox? Return for a five silver piece reward?

What material was used to make the scabbard?

Were there any straps, buckles or rivets on the scabbard?

Were there any decorations on the scabbard?

What color was the scabbard?

What color was the sword?

How much dust was in that cave?

Was there only one line of text or did the length the the message require two or more lines of text?

Details, man, give us details. Details make the story much more interesting, and they let skeptical people look for consistency (or inconsistency) in the story.

The words were just written in the dust that sat on the blade.
Right next to "wash me".

Alongside

"if you think this is dirty you should meet my wives"

And

"my other sword is a scimitar"

Jon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Alongside
>
> "if you think this is dirty you should meet my
> wives"
>
> And
>
> "my other sword is a scimitar"

and on the back on BY's coach it says "my other horse is a curelom" =)

the sword was actually a wooden club with obsidian embedded in it, so the words were probably just burned into it.

Clearly Paul H. Dunn had a hundred year legacy of embellished storytelling backing him up.

... drilled a hole in the bottom and it has been used as a sink ever since.

Actually, the the stone box is more probable than the gold plates. In the ancient burial mounds the body was often placed in a box made of stone slabs before it was covered by dirt to make the mound. Sometimes gifts were placed in grave, too. So if Smith himself or other treasure hunters dug out burial mounds around Upper New York, they have likely found such box graves.

Some links to archaeological websites: http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/GravoisBluffBurials.html , http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/kauffman.html , http://books.google.no/books?id=-SNGCeoQOfIC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=%22stone+box+grave%22&source=bl&ots=HBCSTqgvlL&sig=AbsE0PbyQ8Q-ppN0JNs4uGfKn4Y&hl=no&ei=Fs_iTPDfNs2hOsj72GA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=%22stone%20box%20grave%22&f=false .

Here is a book on North American archaeology - real archaeology, that is, not Book of Mormon fantasies http://www.amazon.com/American-Archaeology-Blackwell-Studies-Global/dp/0631231846/ref=sip_rech_dp_8#reader_0631231846 .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2010 01:54PM by ipseego.

Some one tell me again why he needed the gold plates when all he did to 'translate' the book was stick his face in a hat and not actually use the plates at all?

The story just got improved all the time..I would think that the peep stone story is older because he was using it for years to look for treasure. The translation from magical gold plates seems like it should have been an improved version.

Anyone know which came first?

and btw, read about odin's huginn and muninn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn

his 2 ravens who acted as his "eyes" =)

I remember walking over that entire hill one day in the early 90's. That and the grove of trees that were only 40 years old or less just convinced me more that it was all a sham and a hoax

It may be at the other Hill Cumorah in Palmyra...about 2 miles from THE Hill Cumorah some local residents claim the a church historian (McConkie)? said Andy Comber's hill, which includes the Joseph Smith Cave, is the real Hill Cumorah. It really does have a cave. No pageant though.

ipseego, that gravois mounds page is the most interesting thing I saw all day - thanks

The stone box was burned in the Great Fire o' Palmyra of 1871, which was a sister fire to the Great Fire o' Chicago that allegedly burned the specific pages of the BoA papryi used by smith for the scriptures (not the pages found a hundred years later).

God is testing our faith by fire.

There was no gold plates and therefore no box.

Interesting account about the cave and the sword of Laban. Was the inscription on the sword written in English? Funny how the inscription actually mentions Christ by name when the sword was owned by a person who lived 600 years before Christ.

It's all such a sham that I'm just sitting here LMAO!