I've recently after 11 years decided that this religion isn't for me. Too many questions I'm not supposed to ask that don't stand up to facts or truth. Unfortunately my wife and children are now members (thanks to me) and due to that she told our bishop that I was having serious concerns regarding polygamy etc. He strongly suggested I meet with my EQP and another member. Now they're coming over tomorrow evening and I really don't know what to expect. I want to stick to my guns but have a feeling their tag-teaming will beat me down or question my new found freedom.
Has anyone been is this situation? Any ideas on what to expect from this meeting?
My bishop had also suggested a marriage counselor by name to my wife saying that if our insurance didn't cover the visits, the ward would pay for them. I went for my first visit with the counselor yesterday and while going through the insurance documents etc. there was one saying that I gave permission for my Bishop to have access to EVERYTHING discussed during the meetings, how we were doing, whether we were showing up etc.
This further showed me how controlling the Church is and I obviously refused to sign it.
Any suggestions would be much appreciated!

In fact don't give them any.
I'd decline this visit with the EQP. I was an EQP, he has no expertise at all.
Telling them what you disagree with is a waste of time. They don't even hear it. It's the classic listening-to-respond not listening-to-understand response. They're only going patronize you, accuse you, and otherwise attempt to manipulate you. They think this is just a little fire to put out. I'd stop discussing things with them.

Your wife, on the other hand, needs to be carefully respected. This is all about her now, because if she wasn't holding on to the church you could simply walk away from it.

My wife is still TBM too. I gave the bishop no information except my resignation. Telling them why just gives them something to argue with you, save yourself the trouble. My wife realized she just has to respect me too. Respect her, and let her know you need the same respect. Leave the ward brothers out of it.

I would tell them that it isn't their business to come between spouses.

You haven't said you and your wife are having marital problems. so I don't know why the directive to go for counselling. LDS counsellors are biased not well grounded or trained. Like the bishop and EQP, their agenda is to support the organization over the needs of their clients. They often do more harm than good by breaking up families in the hope of keeping at least one of them paying and obeying the morg.

They are ambushing and bullying you with a whole strategy, pitting a whole team of mormons against one lone guy with legitimate questions which have no legitimate answers.

Can you talk to your wife and tell her you're uncomfortable having all of these people in your personal life? Say you need time to come to terms with much of this in private. Say all of this pressure is pushing you further away from mormonism, not closer to it. Tell her you're feeling uncomfortable with any church that would be so aggressive with you and your family life. Say you want to talk to her and only her whenever the two of you feel ready.

Study and do your homework. Don't let these meddlers mess with you.

Good luck and be strong.

Ask how Joseph's 'marriage' to Fanny Alger happened when Elijah at that point hadn't returned to give the sealing keys?

Ask how old Helen Mar Kimball was when Joseph married her?

Ask which part of D&C132 explains why Joseph married women who already had living husbands?

Ask them, in front of your wife, why the Church expects you to have other wives in the Celestial Kingdom when you love your current wife and don't want to be commanded by your Church to cheat on her.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 06:55AM by Stumbling.

Great questions!!

The Mormon cult is notorious for breaking up families. Please read the exit stories on this board. You are not alone!

I hope you pay attention to the good advice here. The Mormon organization and its members have no boundaries in interfering with your private life, from your underwear, to your birth control, to your relationships with your wife and children. Yes, the Mormons try to take over the role of parent.

Repeat this over and over, out loud: The Mormons have no authority over me, the Mormons have no authority over me. It is all made up! The Mormon priesthood leaders can't tell God what to do. They can't tell you and your wife what to do.

These are not professional clergymen, who have studied psychology, theology, and have had years of experience. These are not licensed practitioners in any capacity. These are businessmen, plumbers, engineers, construction workers, taking orders to keep as many members in the church as possible. Your wife, plus whatever children you have, far out-number you. She will still pay tithing on your alimony. If she stays married to you, you might lead her into believing the Truth, and she and the kids will follow you out.

You are a hero! Don't let them vilify you. All those men are is hot-air and gossip. Churches (that are not cults) let you just walk out the door. Mormonism is a nasty cult, and I hope your children are able to leave someday.

DO NOT give them any signature release of anything. I made the mistake of doing that when I got put in a psych ward because I was so depressed and suicidal cause I just couldnt be that perfect Mormon woman...Anyway, my counselor in the psych place respected my wishes,she released with my permission to just the Bishop, and I only expected the Bishop to keep my info between me him, and my case worker. BIG mistake...He took all that info and called my parents who lived in another state at the time, and caused my Dad to have a stroke...because of this, Dads health went downhill and he died. So, I blame that jerk for my Dads death because that Bishop told him everything! I had even told him under NO circumstance was he to call my parents! He did whatever he wanted with my info! I hope that there is a special place in Hell for that Bishop!

Thanks for the replies. Utahmonomore, that is crazy and I'm sorry your family had to go through that. I certainly won't be allowing them anymore information than I care for them to have, which is zero right now.

Before I found out about the whole medical info being released to the Bishop, I saw him at our ward xmas party (the kids really wanted to be there) and he told me he wanted me to 'get to know' my EQP and that's why he wanted him to meet with me. The guy is a college professor and teaches seminary I think so it should be fun. I'm torn between doing this meeting thing for my wife and just telling them I have nothing to discuss with them.
The bishop also told me he wanted to have a 'long chat with me' and reminded us we HAD to show up for tithing settlement or he would just have to guess whether we were full tithe payers or not.

It's amazing to finally see clearly and know these people DON'T have a right to make you feel guilty, pass judgement and tell you what to do. All the while with a caring smile on their faces.

I'm already disfellowshipped so I assume now the next stop is a Stake Disciplinary counsel and excommunication.

Your wife needs to stop running to the bishop!

Doesn't she realize that nothing stays private in the Mormon church?
Whatever info you give them will be discussed in various meetings, whether you sign off on it or not.

You do not owe these people any explanations. You may want to refuse further discussions.

As to yourself, why not just resign and put an end to the harassment.

I'd resign before they ex you - then you leave on YOUR terms instead of theirs.

I say get their wives on the phone and ask them if it's ok for their husbands to cheat on them. When they say no, ask them if it would be ok if they had your permission to do so. When they say no, ask them if it would be ok if they had the bishop's permission. They might hesitate, but they'll say no. Then ask them if it would be ok if Thomas S. Monson gave them permission. If they say yes, ask them how their sleeping with other women suddenly became ok just because another man told them it was.

Basically, I say f*ck with 'em. There's nothing to be afraid of. If this EQP and his cronie can actually come up with a good reason for polygamy (something that nobody has ever been able to do in the history of mormonism) then I'd be excited to hear it.

I think you should go to marriage counseling with your wife, but NOT with this Mormon counselor. Find a non-Mormon marriage counselor who can help you and your wife work out how you can respect each others' beliefs.

You do not HAVE to attend a tithing settlement. You do not have to give the church any money, you do not HAVE to do anything.

Resign and walk away.

Your wife's first loyalty should be to you, NOT to Mormonism. Hopefully, she will understand this.

Spend the tithing money on marriage counseling instead.

Ask them:

What are the ways you, as ordained priesthood leaders, recommend and counsel people to observe the 11th article of faith in real everyday practical terms? Do you believe it is ever appropriate to disregard this article of faith? Do you counsel people to observe it, unless you are a family member, in which case it is OK to disown children or divorce spouses?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 01:52PM by rodolfo.

Feel good about yourself. You care that it isn't true and are standing by it in the face of adversity! You are right! They are blind and mislead! If your wife was a convert you have a good chance of leading her out of there.

1. They keep info about you on file in slc. for 110 years.

2. They have no problem using it against you in the future. I've had this happen to me.

3. DH was EQ pres. He is an industrial engineer. Not a theologist or marriage counselor.


4. Our bishop was an employee for UPS. Not a marriage counselor, theologist, or mental health professional.

5. I would never never never trust a counselor who would turn their thoughts and notes about you over to a UPS employee or ANYONE in any leadership position in the church.

6.Everything in those records will be discussed at meetings with other leaders, even the guy who collects the tithing. It most likely will also be discussed with their spouses, their friends, their kids, their friends, and on and on.

I am begging you not to do this to yourself and your family.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 12:53PM by mia.

Oh and the tithing thing. He doesn't have to guess. Just tell him if you pay in full or not. End of conversation. Meeting behind closed doors in his territory not needed or required.

Well, they came last night and now I'm more conflicted than ever.
They have a way of 'taking the higher ground' on everything and ignoring the point I bought up, saying 'well, that might have happened' or 'the definitely did not happen'. But it's all about 'asking god about the truth' that we're not going to know and understand everything and trying to is useless.
They always steer it back to praying and being WORTHY. Reminding me frequently how much they love me and my family.
Total mind f***k.

Now that you see what is going on, why not just stick to your guns as you said and not allow anyone to try to take your power away.

This is your life. You are free to change your mind and believe or not believe anything you choose.

They play the: "we love you" card like they really mean it, but they don't love you the way you want to be loved and accepted because you have basically told them you don't buy what they are selling.

My advice: STOP talking to the LDS folks. They are not counselors, they are not informed about the real history of the LDS Church and all they want is for you to remain a member -- remember the bottom line is always money. They want your tithing!
No Money - Tithing, no Church!

Now is the time to lay low and just be quiet about your beliefs or lack of them. Take it very slow with your family. Do your own research, come to your own conclusions, and never, ever give the LDS Church any private info. You were very wise not to sign those forms for counseling!!

Remember that this is your marriage, your family it is none of the LDS church's business how you work that out.

Unfortunately, the members's perspective is betrayal and rejection if you leave the LDS Church.

I was a convert then married in the temple and lived the religion for over three plus decades.

These are my observations.

Mormonism, in my long experience and observation is more accurately described as a patriarchal, generational, cultural, religious tribe. In fact the word: tribe is used in their lexicon. As a convert, I was considered an adopted member of the tribe. Considering how tribes manifest, it is, in my view, the best way to understand how Mormonism creates a whole paradigm for the individual in a familial, societal, religious context aka tribe.


It started out as a small tribe in New York, then moved to other states, and eventually, cemented as a tribe in isolation in Utah by Brigham Young. They even use that term from time to time.
As a convert, I was told it was my adopted tribe.
Your whole identity is as a member of the religious tribe.

Leaving it is, in essence, leaving your tribe.
That, in my experience and observation, accounts for how difficult it is to leave it completely.
Not accepting the beliefs is not all there is to it. It is only the first step.
It requires learning to identify the authentic: YOU, and creating a whole new World View from scratch.
It includes rewriting every single automatic thinking script from childhood if BIC, or as a convert, from years of subtle teachings.

Leaving Mormonism requires courage, tenacity, perseverance, steadfastness and a willingness to give ourselves permission to take our power back.

That is why I call it an Exit Process from Mormonism. It's a process that for some, can take years.

Yes. As a member of the LDS Church, the members whole identity is wrapped up in the cloak of the tribe.

That is why I often use this quote:

"The individual has always had to struggle to resist the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

Best wishes to you. Keep your self confidence, and self respect cooking on high and don't let anyone sabotage your right to how you want to live your life!

Ha! You are being "discounted" by them.

They are NOT on any high ground.
But as you can see, nothing you say gets through to them because Mormonism involves brainwashing and self-delusions.

You are the one who sees it for what it is.

The Book of Mormon is a fraud, disproven by DNA. Don't waste any more time on Mormonism.

Tell them you did pray about it, and that you received confirmation - beyond a shadow of a doubt - that the LDS church is false.

It'll shut them right up hopefully.

Like the religion, their high ground is an illusion.
They have no high ground to stand on. They can only pretend they do.

Mormons say a lot of things that aren't true. They might believe what they are saying, but you don't have to.

They are doing their best to manipulate and control you. They have no problem using God and family members to do this.

Try to picture the word SICK or LIAR across their forehead when they talk to you. Because that is what is really happening.

You are on to their tricks. Don't forget that when they are in your presence. I imagine an invisible barrier between myself and them. They are not allowed on my side of the barrier, either physically or mentally.

I asked my SP to define LOVE to me. I did that because I don't think he has a clue what that word really means. He stumbled around, then changed the subject. Just what I thought. A word that is being used to manipulate. Someone from the top told them to use the word love, so they do. Makes me sick. If they really loved you they would go away and never come back.

The only subject I was able to broach with them was polygamy. I told them that the BOM says that having more than one wife and or concubines was an abomination. They told me that it didn't say that. So I pulled out my quad and read it to him. I then read D&C 123 which says the opposite. The only answer they had was that Solomon and David were given those wives by God and the only 'abomination' was David marrying Uriah's wife because he sent him to the front lines of a battle to kill him off so he could do so. I countered with Joseph Smith sending Orson Hyde to Jerusalem and marrying his wife while he was gone. They just shook their heads and said I was 'full of contention'. Sigh
I didn't even get into the temple or the JS papyrus, or DNA. Like I said, my EQP is a biologist so I really wanted to hear what he had to say about DNA evidence. But, however I was told we can go around in circles forever but the fact of the matter is I needed to pray and read scriptures (not unfounded material where the author doesn't care about me) and make sure I was worthy to receive the answer.

You are full of contention. That is a phrase referred to as a thought stopper. In other words a phrase to shut you up. Also means you are asking questions they don't like and most likely don't have answers to.


They told you what you need to do. pray and read. Really? If they were listening to you they would know that is exactly what you have been doing. That is what brought on the questions. Not only that, but how would they know if that is what you need to do? Where did they get that idea? or info?

Oh and by the way, make sure you are worthy to receive the answer.
ROFLMAO! Let me see, your full of contention=not worthy. Not worthy of what? Getting an answer that is acceptable to them?


These guys are a piece of work. They have the whole guilt, shame, and fear system mapped out like pros. On one hand I feel sorry for them. On the other I just want to kick their butts.

I personally wouldn't get into any doctrinal or personal conversations with them. You might as well be talking to a wall. You are wasting time and energy. They are already trying to use your questions against you by saying you are full of contention, and implying you may not be worthy.

I would completely stop talking to them. You don't owe them any explanations why. Focus on your family and what you need to do that is for the good for all of you. Keep learning. Be very selective who your share your information with. The guys you are talking to do not have any answers for you. They have made that pretty obvious. They are draining you of much needed energy. They don't get it, and don't want to. They perceive you as a lost misguided soul. They aren't going to suddenly go wow! belperboy you are right! tell us every thing you know. And if they do, it would be because they have a report to file for your excommunication court. These people are not your friends. I don't care how many plates of christmas cookies they bring over. Their job is to bring you back in line or get rid of you. Whats it going to be?

You're full of pride.
Don’t forget this conversation stopper. I’ve had this pulled out on family members more than once. The idea is that pride is bad. If you are disobedient to what the church wants you must be full of pride. Obedience is the only way to prove you have thrown way that pride.

Why were you disfellowshipped in the first place? For not believing their crap?

You are old enough to decide if you want to belong to a church or not.
Stop meeting with them. Stop going there on Sundays.

You may want to ask your wife to stop bringing these people into your marriage.
Her allegiance should be to you, not to them.

Thereafter, serious consider resigning. Why put up with the insanity.

That is so awful. A document that gave the Bishop permission to see all the facts, the discussion etc. regarding your marriage and beliefs???? HOLY COW....they are over the top controlling. So the counselor was in on it too.I would not let that Bishop anywhere near me ever again. And did you tell this to your wife? She approves? I would begin to think that her devotion is to them and not you if she approves of you signing a document like that. IF you are sure you want out make it real - resign!

Be calm and keep your feelings to yourself--the less information you give, the better. Hopefully your wife will eventually join you. It took me a couple of years longer than it took DH to reach the same conclusions--this church isn't for us. Now we see through the lies, the manipulation, and the false love. The problem we've had, and it sounds like you're having the same one, is the desire to make people understand our position. The truth is, they will NEVER understand, nothing you say will will convince them they're wrong, and anything you DO tell them will only be used against you.

We've had several rounds of TBM interventions and love-bombing lately--along with several attempts to get us to open up about WHY we've left. We've come to realize that there is NO answer we can give that will ever be satisfactory. So now the response is, "We don't want to talk about it" or "We're not talking about that." TBMs will find that response completely vexing, but it's better than giving them more to use against you.

Your job now is to protect yourself and your family from the rumors, slander, and the guilt tips the morg will invariably try to throw your way.

Hang in there...

Lots of great advice on this thread for you here belperboy especially from mia, amos2, SuzieQ, sexismyreligion, Cheryl, forestpal, honestone, Leah, andnowI'mfound.

Your story is very similar to mine.

After seven years I started not being happy in the church, but not knowing exactly why, as the church's explanations, social pressures, and abuses can take a little time to see through, recognize, and shake free of. Two years later I stopped going.

My wife has stayed TBM, mostly; she sees the church as a good place to raise kids and our two teens cannot see past the church at all. Totally indoctrinated. "Dad, I know you are in a dark place." "Dad, you can't expect us to choose you over God." I don't think my wife wants to hurt them by leaving, which of course--the leaving--is the best thing to do in my opinion.

When I stopped going I emailed the Bishop that I didn't want to talk about it. A couple of best "friends" from the ward have come by the house to see me two or three times over the last two years to "talk," but I shooed them away. I don't even let them in. I know that's a clear sign of problems when they go and report that back to the Bishop. I'm much happier without them and they only want to relate to me if I drink the Kool-aid. The church talks about integrity all the time, but it doesn't care about real integrity--it only cares about integrity as defined by staying true to it and it alone.

Definitely the less info you give the better. Nothing is confidential with your Bishop.

These folks will never understand your position until they are ready, if ever. You can't wait for them or waste time on them. The advice is really good to focus on your family and to be a good husband, making your wife know that she and the kids are the center of your life.

My wife is a private person; she's a convert. She told me that she hasn't talked to the Bishop about any my not coming to church. I believe her.

Seems that in my situation I may have a benefit there that you don't--your wife seems to think running to the Bishop is some kind of panacea for your disaffection. As Leah has said twice on this thread, your wife needs to start seeing a boundary between the church and your marriage.

I was an EQP too, and in the bishopric for most of the years I was in the church. I had nothing to offer people beyond church sanctioned pabulum. In the end that created a short-circuit for my belief in the church too: One could never go beyond church clichés, even with one's own family: It's all programmed, laid out for you, right to the grave. You are to live with people whose relationships to you are always muffled by the droning self-important mediation of the church.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2011 09:15PM by derrida.

I appreciate all the advice, thank you.

It was a learning experience I should have probably been able to predict the outcome. Is there any come back to...

'I know it's true because I feel the spirit so strongly about it'.? (add multiple examples of this)

I myself was convinced I was doing the right thing in one specific instance and was told that was the spirit telling me it was all true. However, this 'spiritual experience' can't uphold blindly following along any longer. It would be, in some cases, easier to continue following.

The church makes a huge claim when in says it is the only one that contains the restored gospel. It's the one that puts that out there. People shouldn't be made to feel like they're being controlled by 'satan' for saying the facts just don't back up it's claim.

belperboy said:

"People shouldn't be made to feel like they're being controlled by 'satan' for saying the facts just don't back up it's claim."

Mos say they are not doing this, but they totally are. Their doctrines teach them that apostates are controlled by satan. They look at anything apostates do as a calculated effort on the part of satan to destroy their testimonies.

Whenever my own DW has tried to throw that spin at me, saying that she feels that I am purposely trying to break her down by subtle, devilish means, I just totally call her on it. I insist she apologize for trying to equate me with Mormon satan. I refuse to be treated that way.

I can take a lot of criticism, opposition and argument, even a lot of accusations, but I refuse to be someone's satan (the ultimate bad boy). That is much too absolute and final a judgment.

Once you have been labeled satanic, there is little chance of rehab in Mo eyes. They apparently have no idea how unfair, unloving and hurtful their little "doctrine of (un)righteous judgment" is seen by non-mos.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2011 04:15AM by hello.