I have lived in Utah all my life and taught in Utah for 30 years. We certainly have some problems with religion and government, but I have never seen mishies of any sort in the schools and have never been asked to pass out any sort of pamphlets of a political or religious nature. In fact, it is not allowed and if I did, I could be fired. I don't know where Cheryl teaches that she has to empty her mailbox of such things severasl times a day. Sorry, but I am not buying it either.The problems are ususally created by kids and non Mormon kids can be very rude to Mormons. It isn't always the Mormon fault. I have had more problems with non Mormon kids calling Mormons Morons than the other way around.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2010 05:13PM by bona dea.

(Under a convert whom I later learned was in partnership with none other than Van Hale)

I was not permitted to teach a "Senior Humanities" class, but I did sit in on it once. That particular lesson was overt, manipulative church propaganda where the question-and-answer dialectic was used to demonstrate the "superiority of LDS beliefs."

And in Utah, there's probably less of a need for the sort of propaganda Cheryl encountered because every public secondary school has an LDS seminary within a hundred yards or so...

Finally, the story of the firing of Charles Larson for authoring "By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus" is instructive. One can hear Larson's presentation on-line at the archives of last year's Exmormon Conference...

Okay, let the cat fight begin; I'm needed, however, in my regular job of getting Zion's drunks home safely and tucked into bed...

There are some teacher who overstep their bounds. I know of one teacher who told a Catholic student that she shouldn't wear cross.In my experience, though, MOST teachers leave their religious beliefs at home. That, however, is not what I was talking about. My point is that I have troube believing that the OP had her public school mailbox inundated with handouts of a religious and political nature to the extent that she had to clear it out 3 times a day. Yeah, teachers get a lot of stuff that is junk but I never got anything of a religious or political nature in my mailbox other than a general' be sure to vote' or something about the someone who was running for school board. In no case was I ever asked to hand out inappropriate stuff to kids.BTW, I have taught in 6 different schools and the only one where i had a problem with such things was at Challenger, a private school, where the director supported right wing candidates.

I have subbed both in West Valley, where the kids are rowdy and rebellious, with elaborate styles and colored hair, and I have subbed in Heber.

The Heber kids, who are overwhelmingly LDS, are extremely well behaved and kind to each other, and they are nicely dressed and polite. If there is ever a problem, it's with a non-Mormon insulting Mormons. The Mormon kids seem well aware of the secular nature of the school system, and while they do talk about churchy things, they don't impose them on anyone. Non Mormons in Utah, since they literally label themselves as "Non Mormons" can be very over bearing and annoying at times. They have to boast their Non Mormon status. In Heber it's quite easy to profile the kids who aren't LDS and immediately see them behave badly.

I am an atheist. Mormons seem to get that schools are separate from religion.

Thor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have subbed both in West Valley, where the kids
> are rowdy and rebellious, with elaborate styles
> and colored hair, and I have subbed in Heber.
>
> The Heber kids, who are overwhelmingly LDS, are
> extremely well behaved and kind to each other, and
> they are nicely dressed and polite. If there is
> ever a problem, it's with a non-Mormon insulting
> Mormons. The Mormon kids seem well aware of the
> secular nature of the school system, and while
> they do talk about churchy things, they don't
> impose them on anyone. Non Mormons in Utah, since
> they literally label themselves as "Non Mormons"
> can be very over bearing and annoying at times.
> They have to boast their Non Mormon status. In
> Heber it's quite easy to profile the kids who
> aren't LDS and immediately see them behave badly.
>
> I am an atheist. Mormons seem to get that schools
> are separate from religion.

The non LDS kids have even told me I couldn't
mention such and such because it was religious even if it was part of the curriculum. Kind of hard to teach Utah studies without mentioning JS,BY and the Mormons. LOL, but some kids thought it should be left out.. LDS kids will get upset if they perceive any disparaging comments about their religion. That said, my biggest problems have been with non religious kids who don't understand what can and cannot be taught in public school and who want to tell me what I should and shouldn't say. Interestingly, a lot of those kids have been in Magna and W. Valley. There are a lot of great kids there, though, Mormon and not Mormon.

...but not religious dogma. The key is knowing the difference.

For example, you can say, "The Mormons believe that under the "Word of Wisdom," one should not imbibe coffee, tea, etc." as opposed to, "You should not imbibe coffee, tea, etc. because that would be immoral." The first example is information, the second is religious dogma.

Of couse you also have to justify what you teach according to the curriculum, but there is some wiggle room there.

Summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...but not religious dogma. The key is knowing the
> difference.
>
> For example, you can say, "The Mormons believe
> that under the "Word of Wisdom," one should not
> imbibe coffee, tea, etc." as opposed to, "You
> should not imbibe coffee, tea, etc. because that
> would be immoral." The first example is
> information, the second is religious dogma.
>
> Of couse you also have to justify what you teach
> according to the curriculum, but there is some
> wiggle room there.


Agreed. I know that, but many kids don't.

since being in this school, my daughter has brought home more pamphlets from church organizations (of many religious stylings) than I can count on my hands and feet. For all sorts of activities and programs. Distributed FROM her teacher in her daily folder. Her Girl Scouts program that is run by members of the school staff, has been putting out specific religious material. I am not all that familiar with GS, but I do know they (Girl Scouts) do not push a certain religion but they do make accomodations for religious organizations for activities and badges.

I have complained to the school board and gotten no where. I was told to take it up with the principal and "make it work". So we have been trying to make it work.

This was the case in her last school also. Lots of churches inviting you to this or that. I don't think it is appropriate.

I am not saying missionaries hang out there. However when I was in high school the missionaries would stop by to say hi and "hang out" (pre columbine days) And talk to people and our non member friends.

Also other religious groups would have their set lunch time hang out and their youth pastor would come to the school and hang out with them etc. And "randomly" talk to people passing by.

I don't know about you but that doesn't sound like it should be allowed in schools.

...specified that it was okay for local businesses to distribute fliers, coupons, etc. to schools as long as they used their own paper to do the printing. So several days a week I would see a pile of cr@p in my mailbox to be distributed to my students. I always resented this because it detracted from my instructional time to do the distribution and treated me as un unwilling partner in the advertising of the business. Why the district chose to be involved in this nonsense is beyond me.

Flyers and coupons for the Fresh Choice Restaurant, the Hello Kitty store, an expensive shoe store, Pacific Gas and Electric Company, political campaigns and parties, different church auxilery groups for kids, invitations to church sponsored events, ballet lessons, kid self defense training, home based childcare services, and many more. At least the official mormon church and mishies didn't pull this stunt.

The point is that each group, including churches, seemed to assume that they were one of the few to cash in on this weakness in our past school policy. Or they assumed adding color sheets or dot-to-dots about Halloween safety or recycling legitimized their advertisements. No, most of their so-called "educational materials" were very poor or taught things "they" wanted kids to learn but were in direct opposition to the curriculum. This was especially true of church materials which alluded to love of God or priciples of church doctrine not shared by non-believers.

Why did I bring this up in another thread? Because I was accused of only objecting to mormon intrusions in schools. Not so. I object if schools don't monitor and limit what goes out to families and if teachers are required to use excessive time to distribute non-educational and especially commercial, religious and political materials on public school grounds.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Flyers and coupons for the Fresh Choice
> Restaurant, the Hello Kitty store, an expensive
> shoe store, Pacific Gas and Electric Company,
> political campaigns and parties, different church
> auxilery groups for kids, invitations to church
> sponsored events, ballet lessons, kid self defense
> training, home based childcare services, and many
> more. At least the official mormon church and
> mishies didn't pull this stunt.
>
> The point is that each group, including churches,
> seemed to assume that they were one of the few to
> cash in on this weakness in our past school
> policy. Or they assumed adding color sheets or
> dot-to-dots about Halloween safety or recycling
> legitimized their advertisements. No, most of
> their so-called "educational materials" were very
> poor or taught things "they" wanted kids to learn
> but were in direct opposition to the curriculum.
> This was especially true of church materials which
> alluded to love of God or priciples of church
> doctrine not shared by non-believers.
>
> Why did I bring this up in another thread? Because
> I was accused of only objecting to mormon
> intrusions in schools. Not so. I object if schools
> don't monitor and limit what goes out to families
> and if teachers are required to use excessive time
> to distribute non-educational and especially
> commercial, religious and political materials on
> public school grounds.

And the vast majority of those have nothing to do with either politics and religion which was my original point. I know teachers get a lot of junk mail.Another point is that because an event takes place in a church does not make it a religious event. I vote in a church and our neighborhood watch meetings
are in another church. Neither are religious events in any sense of the word



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2010 03:56PM by bona dea.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> n/t

In your original post you claimed you got religious and political pamphlets and were expected to pass them out. Ho hum.You are so full of it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2010 05:01PM by bona dea.

Different districts are different. Stop trying to make broad statements based on just your experience.

Tiff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Different districts are different. Stop trying to
> make broad statements based on just your
> experience.

Well if you did, your district is in violation of the law.Sorry, but I am not buying it, particularly in the case of Cheryl who claims that she had to clear said pamphlets out of her box at the rate of three times per day. I can believe a few might sneak through, but that is not what Cheryl claimed.Besides as I said, just because an advertised event takes place at a church doesn't necessarily make it religious.Churches rent their building or let groups use it for free.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2010 05:17PM by bona dea.

Again, stop making broad statements. We learned not to do that when we left the church, remember?

Every single, god-damned district has different rules.

Tiff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again, stop making broad statements. We learned
> not to do that when we left the church, remember?
>
> Every single, god-damned district has different
> rules.

Excuse me but I do not take orders from you and all school districts are required to obey the law. WHAT I POST IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS UNLESS YOU HAVE BEEN APPOINTED BOARD MODERATOR.You post what you like and I'll post what I like.You can disagree with me, but do not tell me what I can post. Good God.

I gave my opinion about your post. Did I tell you to stop posting? No. Did I tell you to go away? No. Did I tell you to edit your post? No.

Broad statements again, indeed.

Tiff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I gave my opinion about your post. Did I tell you
> to stop posting? No. Did I tell you to go away?
> No. Did I tell you to edit your post? No.
>
> Broad statements again, indeed.

You said 'Stop making broad statements" That is an order not a disagreement and since you not a moderator, you do not tell others what to post.

That's a disagreement of opinions. Good effing, grief. I feel that you are making broad statements. I feel that you should stop making broad statements.

If you felt that I was telling you what to post, I apologize that my words got misconstrued. I was simply stating my opinion and it clearly got misinterpreted.

Tiff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's a disagreement of opinions. Good effing,
> grief. I feel that you are making broad
> statements. I feel that you should stop making
> broad statements.
>
> If you felt that I was telling you what to post, I
> apologize that my words got misconstrued. I was
> simply stating my opinion and it clearly got
> misinterpreted.

Fair enough

That is exactly right.

That's either another lie or another unfounded assumption.

Strange.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2010 05:31PM by Cheryl.

My daughter got handed a Christian dvd last year. When she said she didn't believe in god, she was chastized by this girl. I complained to principal AND superintendant and was told that she is allowed to do that under Freedom of Speech (hand out religious info). I wondered in a subsequent email to her if it would be ok if my daughter went to school and handed out occult stuff...

(this was on school property on school time)

anon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My daughter got handed a Christian dvd last year.
> When she said she didn't believe in god, she was
> chastized by this girl. I complained to principal
> AND superintendant and was told that she is
> allowed to do that under Freedom of Speech (hand
> out religious info). I wondered in a subsequent
> email to her if it would be ok if my daughter went
> to school and handed out occult stuff...
>
> (this was on school property on school time)
Kids are allowed to do this by law. There isn't a lot the school can do unless there is more to it. If the girl threatened your daughter or was rude, the school should have acted for that reason. Again, the school didn't do this, a kid did. The point I was making is that I have never seen the school handing stuff like this out.

Be specific.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Be specific.
I do not know the specific law but it has to do with Freedom of Speech and the First Amendment. Kids give each other things at school everyday. That includes religious things.Where do you draw the line and how do you police it? Outsiders doing the same is another issue since they most likely don't even have the right to be there.

How can it be policed? Like every other school rule, by talking to students, educating them to understand the implications, and by providing consequences. No school rule can be enforced 100%.

... in which a student is attempting to sue her school district because it doesn't allow certain types of body piercing (nose rings, etc.).

The student's contention is that because body piercings are part of her religion, the school district is infringing on her First Amendment rights. The school district has allowed students of certain "recognized" faiths to do so, but doesn't consider the student-in-question's religion to be legit.

So here's the problem as I explained it to the ACLU:

The First Amendment reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" which means religion will be granted no special consideration, nor will it be denied what others freely enjoy.

In this case, the school district, according to the law, must either apply or lift the restriction across the board.

If, for example, it allows students of "recognized" faiths to sport certain types of body piercing while denying the same privilege to all other students, it is in violation of the First Amendment. Should the district allow all students except those of certain "recognized" faiths to sport body piercing, it would likewise be in violation of the First Amendment.

The school district can only comply with the First Amendment by either allowing all students the privilege or denying all students the privilege. As stated, there is no room in the First Amendment for exception.

I always love this argument, "A law does exist, I just don't know what it is!"

Timothy

bona dea Wrote:

> Kids are allowed to do this by law. There isn't a
> lot the school can do unless there is more to it.
> If the girl threatened your daughter or was rude,
> the school should have acted for that reason.
> Again, the school didn't do this, a kid did. The
> point I was making is that I have never seen the
> school handing stuff like this out.


Yes and no. There are certain restrictions, especially for younger students.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/rel_liberty/publicschools/topic.aspx?topic=rel_literature

However, since schools are generally considered limited public forums, and because First Amendment rights of students are not as extensive as or equal to those of adults, schools may prohibit distribution of certain types of literature altogether. Those include materials that:

Would likely cause substantial disruption of the operation of the school (such as literature using fighting words or other inflammatory language).

Violate the rights of others (e.g., that is libelous, that invades privacy of others or infringes a copyright).

Are obscene, lewd or sexually explicit.

Advertise products that are illegal for minors (such as alcohol).

Students would reasonably believe to be sponsored or endorsed by the school.


The school should probably have a clear policy on when and how such material can be distributed.

Schools also usually have policies about campus access. Anyone entering the school or grounds usually must check in and get permission from the office to complete whatever they're there to do. If the goal is to pass out missionary tracts or religious hellfire materials, I would think a school with a good staff and polices would deny them the opportunity.

In my school, parents did have permission to help in the classrooms or pick up their children, attend conferences and meetings, and a few of them sneaked in religious pamphlets to leave in the office and the library. This is before we established better checks and office procedures.

http://www.27bslash6.com/easter.html

Laws are different in Australia, but this guy had a good time with it.

That made me laugh! I posted it on Facebook too.