How can anyone really trust an organization that buys documents which call into question the divine origins of the church for the sole purpose of keeping them from being published?
Why is it that the spirit did not tell the Prophet about the forgery and blackmail attempt but the chief of "anti-mormon lies" Jerald Tanner could see it immediately?
Yes someone lies but guess what? It isn't who you were told.
is that Hofmann said that he was nervous when he first met with SWK and crew. In spite of his years of familiarity with the nonsensical origins of Mormonism, he still had a lingering superstitious dread that The Profit actually had the gift of discernment and would denounce him and his document as shams. But all of the high-powered Mormon muckety-mucks must have mislaid their Keys that day, 'cause none of them had a clue that they'd been hornswoggled; that was the final nail in the coffin of the remnants of Hofmann's belief.
SWK was using a magnifying glass. If he just would have had old Joe's seerstone rushed up from the vault, he would have known beyond a shadow of a doubt that the document was a forgery.
From what was reported in the books about Hoffman, he had been trying to sell the McClellan collection, but hadn't produced it. He was under a lot of pressure since he'd borrowed money on the promise that he had located it. But he couldn't produce it so he set off the bombs, killing two people as a cover up. What confused me was that to pull this off it seemed like he had to have been working on forging the collection in order to finally cash in on the scheme. Much later, I read on the Tanner's site that it turned out that the Collection was actually in the church's possession all the time. They have such sloppy procedures that they hadn't even known they had the collection in their vault when they arranged a signature loan for $100,00 to Hoffman on the promise of finding it.
So much for inspiration & discernment! Sounds like taking inventory of the vault could have saved some lives
Hey, I didn't remember seeing BKKKP in that photo. I thought the whole cast was dead by now. Maybe if we all send real nice emails to his handlers they'll let him do an upcoming Conference talk of Hofmann.
but close to the end of his life when I lost belief--this was the issue that constantly nagged at him. Every time this story came on A&E, he would talk to me about it and how it disturbed him.
...they would have at least sensed there was something not quite right with that Hofmann fellow. After all, they claim to be able to sense "dark presences" in the room. Hell, they even know (with 99% accuracy, lol) when young men are masturbating. But a lying, swindling apostate future murderer is right there in the room with them, looking over their shoulders, they get......nada. Maybe it was because Hofmann's bad vibes were drowned out by the constant background radiation of their own swindle-ness. And by their fear the document might be real.
Was the quote headlined in the second article referenced, about how Mark Hoffman felt power in deceiving people.
“As far back as I can remember I have liked to impress people through my deceptions,” Hofmann wrote in a January 1988 letter to the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole. “Fooling people gave me a sense of power and superiority. I believe this is what led to my forging activities.”
I think as much as anything, this is the parallel between Joseph Smith and Mark Hoffman and a good insight into why Joseph did it. The Smith family was what probably today would be termed as "white trash". Lucy Smith obviously suffered from being looked down on by the people in Palmyra and one of Joseph Smith's complaints about how his "revelations" were received was that he was mocked. If you grow up with a chip on your shoulder like that, thinking everyone is looking down on you, being able to turn the tables and feel the power of fooling people, that sense of superiority - being smarter than everyone you led, was huge. Probably more than the money, it was the power over people that Joseph Smith got off on and made all he went through worth his time.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2012 10:18AM by CA girl.
The parallel you've drawn is very astute. For a long time I have also thought it must be that way. It also helps explain the persecution complex they alway toss in the roadway whenever someone goes after them with a legitimate criticism.
Interesting presentation Steve, though I imagine any TBM worth his salt can conjure up the needed shuck and jive to firewall his faith from the inconvenient story of Mark Hofmann and the mormon leadership he conned.
I think most of us have such a difficult time identifying with this mindset (getting a thrill out of deceiving people) because we are just normal people.
Joe the horndog was a fraud. Hoffman was a fraud. Fear of damning information about the founding claims of Mormonism made these church leaders open the coffers and cough up cash for forged documents.
I read a book called, "The Mormon Murders" years ago. It was about Mark Hoffman and how he forged these documents. Remember how there are some pages left blank at the back of a book? Well, he'd cut them out and scribble something on them, then sell them. But since the forgeries were on old paper, they fooled a lot of people.
If you want to read more (besides Tracking the White Salamander) you can also read the Mormon Murders (fairly old) but informative for those who want to know more about it. Fairy cheap on Ebay. Jerald and Sandra Tanner are one of the best things that ever happened to SLC. Everything they do is based on facts and no mean nasty diatribes. That's why TSCC must really hate them. Jerald has passed on of course, but Sandra is still doing great things.
Hoffman was a huge influencing factor in me figuring out the church was false. I simply cannot understand how a member of the church can still believe in the leadership of the church after this. This leaves feelings behind, the hard facts are irrefutible and yet, to borrow a line from a seminary song from the 70s, "their eyes are not yet open for they cannot see the truth"!!
PS Anyone else remember that song? Our ward seminary class had to memorise it, to sing at the stake seminary graduation, I can still remember one of the lines "their eyes are not yet open for they cannot see the truth, the book for us was written as a guide for wandering youth, so help them read that they may see ...... blah blah blah" or something like that. God, I really believed in those days. Made a new dress especially for the graduation. Funny what you remember.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2012 06:10AM by clairefergie.
Steve, do you think the coverups by Hinckley etal on other Hofmann docs not favorable to the Brighamites is evidence that some of the 15 know it's a scam?
That was amazing CA Girl. It explains polygamy too. He had power over all of those women, to make them do things which society felt were completely immoral and they did it because they thought he was a prophet. Wow. What a feeling of power that would bring. He must have been a really arrogant SOB.
It's funny, but up here in my area we knew nothing about Hoffman - had never even heard of him. I learned about him around 1999, when a co-worker handed me a book about the case.
I read it, decided it was all anti-Mormon lies and fiction and threw it out. It didn't bother me at all.
But now that I look at it from a ex-Mo angle, it's hard to imagine how it didn't destroy most TBMs testimonies. But it didn't destroy mine, so I guess I understand the level to which a TBM will go through mental hoops in order to protect that precious testimony.
But those were the most powerful men in the Church, and not one of them, as was mentioned, sensed any kind of darkness emanating from the murderer standing with them. And TBMs are always telling us that we have a darkness about us, now that we've left the Church. Ha! LOL
I've already saved that beautiful scan of that brilliantly ironic newspaper article about the modest pre-med student Mark Hofmann at USU. I never realized he had attended scholl there.
For years my wife dreamt of attending USU because her ultra-TBM/right-wing folks carted her 60 miles round-trip every day for five years to a charter school on USU's campus, and both her parents attended Utah State at various points.
She's now near completing her BIS at Weber, and we hope to someday escape the Zion Skidmark and move to Corvallis, OR so she can attend OSU. But I suspect deep down inside she still has a lingering fondness for USU.
However, something tells me my bitter ex-mormon wife will shed all remaining fondness when she finds out that if she were to study there, she'd be sharing her alma mater with the reincarnation of Joseph Smith - Mark Hofmann!
(No offense to any USU alumni folks here.. I'm just trying to be humorous. Besides, everyone knows Weber State is better than you blue cows up at USU! ;-) )
I didn't know Brigham Young and others were indicted for counterfeiting. Totally get why the photo proves it's a fraud. But for all of Tanner's writing about parallels between Joseph Smith and Mark Hofmann, the big one he seems to have missed is they're both sociopaths and/or malignant narcissists. And so, too, probably, are some of the others in the photo.
"Scumbag takes advantage of other scumbags" would have been a better headline.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2012 05:20PM by munchybotaz.
"And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2012 11:38PM by baura.