ARE MORMONS CHRISTIANS- A different Jesus
To quote one Mormon apologist: “Latter-day Saints are Christians because they emphatically believe in Christ, use His name in their official church title, and believe in the Bible and the Book of Mormon which testify repeatedly of the reality of Christ and the truth of His teachings.” Jesus Christ, no doubt, plays a central role in Mormon theology. However, Paul warns that to be a Christian, one must believe in the true Christ—the Jesus of the Bible—and not another Jesus. In fact, we would all agree with the late Mormon apostle Bruce R. McConkie when he says, “it matters not that people simply say they believe in Christ, or think they are followers of Moses, or the Apostles. What counts is the reality.” And the reality is that Mormons believe in a Jesus vastly different than the Jesus of the Bible.

ARE MORMONS CHRISTIANS- Many gods
You see, Mormonism teaches that Jesus is just one of countless other gods—a belief known as polytheism. Now, a Mormon may try to deny being a polytheist by affirming the existence of other gods, while in the same breath worshipping only God the Father. However, don’t forget Christ’s proclamation in Mark chapter 12—that God’s most important commandment is to recognize that there is only one God and only one Lord.

ARE MORMONS CHRISTIANS- Conclusion
Where does this leave Jesus in Mormon Theology? Well, Mormons say they believe that Jesus is Jehovah, the LORD, the God of Israel, yet they refuse to pray to Him, as Jehovah Himself commands in the Old Testament (cf. Deut. 4:7; 2 Chron. 7:14; Pss. 5:2; 32:6; Jer. 29:7,12)—the same Jehovah who knows of no other God besides Himself, the One worshipped and honored by all true Christians (Ex. 34:14; cf. Matt. 2:11; 14:33; Luke 24:52). And so, judging by its own teachings, Mormonism cannot be rightly considered Christian.

I think sometimes I stayed active longer than I should of because of things like your statements above.

So-called Christians telling me I wasn't Christian, please.

Right now, I don't even care! Now, all it seems is like you are saying your false doctrine is better than my false doctrine.

Everything you have said depends on assumption that the LDS is not the true version of Christianity.

If the LDS truly has it right, and their version of Christ and god are right, then your assumptions and interpretations of the bible are what is flawed. If the LDS is actually true, then it does not matter if there is some "mainstream version of Christianity that contradicts Mormonism, it would be wrong, no matter how many people believe the wrong version of Christianity". To make your point, you have to prove that there is a version of Christianity that is RIGHT, and I haven't seen anyone do that yet. Yes, they can quote lots of books and scripture, but they can not show that what they are quoting is actually true.

Oh, and as far as quoting or referencing the OT as proof of your point, does that mean you believe that fathers should be rewarded for offering their daughters up for rape to protect strangers Genesis 19:8? How about stoning to death of children for being disobedient Deuteronomy 21:18-21t ? Do you actually believe that eating shrimp is an abomination http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/?

I am betting that you are quoting from a source that you yourself do not believe is an authoritative truth.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2012 01:42PM by MJ.

As an atheist, I agree with everything you say on the matter of whose Sky Fairy is best.

But we have to also accept that the world has a definition of "Christian" which is generally accepted, and that Mormons do not have the right to redefine this term and expect others to accept their version. It is the same with all words.

For example, I could declare that I am not a white man, but a black man. I could argue with other men that consider themselves to be black that they don't have any more right than me to define their skin colour.

We have even had threads here that ask "What is a Christian" and there was no agreement what so ever.

Oh, and "generally accepted" would be an appeal to authority.

Oh, and what EXACTLY is this "generally accepted" definition of Christianity of which you sleek? Oh, and do show evidence that what you claim is "generally accepted" is, well, generally accepted.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2012 11:46AM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>Do you actually believe that eating shrimp is an
> abomination http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/?

Her reply, "It was an abomination back then. You could die from eating shell fish. Remember it was in the days before refrigeration."

I said that people die from eating shellfish today, it's called allergy.

And then she would go on about how the Lord revealed the WofW to Joseph Smith long before anyone knew too much meat was bad for you, wine was bad for you, tobacco is bad for you, etc., etc.

I asked why would the Lord wait that long if he knew how bad all this stuff was for you?

And she said that it was because no one was willing to accept word from the Lord until Joseph Smith.

*sigh* *groan*

Just like pork, it was because they didn't know how to avoid the dangers. What's hilarious is that people are still living by it.

Doesn't being a Christian mean that you must conform your choices-decisions/actions to the New Testament?


in the New Testament, Paul teaches against a woman leaving an unbelieving husband. He goes on to say that if she does, she should either reconcile or remain unmarried.

Try telling that to a TBM woman who has divorced husband for some 'violation' of LDS policies or (minor)doctrines/teachings.

I know some Christians that say you only have to believe what Christ actually said, and not what anyone one else said in the Bible, including Paul. Of course we only have what others claim Christ said, so that is a problem their.

There are others that claim that you only have to believe the NT which begs the question, why canonize a bunch of stuff as holy scripture that is not meant to be followed as scripture?

There are some that say that the OT is still biblical law except where they think Jesus made some sort of change. Of course Jesus made an awful lot of very convenient changes that these people can not seem to reference.

Then there are those like the Westboro Baptist Church, that get high on trying to push the OT on everyone else.

I would not doubt that there are some people that do not even believe that there was a real Christ but still call them selves Christian.

From my experience, Christianity is what each individual claims it is and there is no real agreed upon definition of Christianity. There is a lot of people claiming to be Christians pointing at other people that claim to be Christians and say "those people are not real Christians" though. Kinda like what the OP is doing. Well, not kinda, more like exactly like the OP is doing.,

Granted, christians invented the fairy tale, but its still a fairy tale.

Mormonism is an easy religion to debunk. Debunking it, however, does nothing to bolster the credibility of christianity or any other religion.

Here's something to consider. Christianity laid the ground-work for mormonism. Without the original fairy tale there would be no spin-offs.

Mormons may not be christians, but christianity is the original mormonism.

This is the Gospel according to Timothy ... Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive.

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2012 01:44PM by Timothy.

For any two people to discuss what is Christian and what is not then they must agree on a defination of Christian. Here we have many discussing what is and is not Christian without an agreement on the defination. So we have many people with opinions and very little else. However, some make very interesting comments.

don started the topic and gave his reasons why he thinks the way he does.

MJ was spot on to me. I did not go to the link about shrimp. I got burned on a link from here and it took a visit from an expensive tech to get the virus out and restore my computer.

Someone ask her TBM "the" question...as if a TBM would do more than spout TBMisms! Really!

Any discussion about a subject as complicated as Christanity must have an agreed upon definition of what is Christanity before any logical and fruitful discussion can be engaged in. To quote the Bible or any other "faith" based book as the source of truth is not going to work with those who do not give credit to what is in the Bible being true.

If that is what you really want to discuss then maybe you would be happier going to a Christian site for such a discussion, or maybe not!

As for Mormonism being Christian...I as a X don't believe anything Mormon is real because it is all lies that started with a lie.

Nothing about a lie is real.
A lie negates any truth it is attached to.
A lie upon lie is still a lie.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2012 11:34AM by rowan.

My Mom used to recite those lines ("Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive") when she was teaching us not to lie.

I've found that some people practice deception, but a few are really good at it.

Mom was teaching us not to lie, and maybe she was also teaching us to watch out for the really good liars.

Great points,don and I so agree with it all. Mormons are in no way Christian. And how can they say they believe in the Bible when they take parts out and add to it? They lie.The many Gods thing, becoming a God yourself is so UnChristian.

Using what this implies: "And how can they say they believe in the Bible when they take parts out and add to it?" nobody that *I* know would be a true Christian.

Clearly you are saying that every "cafeteria Christian" is NOT a Christian. From what I can tell, that would mean there were virtually no Christians.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2012 11:47AM by MJ.

Not drink beer is an abomination.

True, not drinking beer is an abomination, greater then even the great abomination of drinking beer out of cans.

I'd like to drink, but I want it to be ok with God....what to do?

"Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who anguish" (Proverbs 31:6)

So, would I be perishing or anguishing? I guess it depends on who wins the super bowl!! LOL hahahahaha!

I don't think there's any doubt that it's a very different form of Christianity. You have the polytheism, the belief of Jesus visiting the Americas, the emphasis on Joseph Smith, the concept of God having a physical body and living on his own planet, the different levels of heaven, and the lack of belief in the Trinity. I think that it is these differences that tend to upset Christians in many other churches. But to call Mormonism "not Christian" is too simplistic and unfair.

Perhaps even more importantly, Joseph Smith claimed that he did more for mankind than Jesus. How does that fit into Christianity?

test on board

Haven't you got anything useful to do? Try taking your dog for a walk.

The conditioning of Mormons to believe they are Christains and to be outraged by anyone saying otherwise, often persists past believing in Mormonism.

Theologically, Christianity and Mormonism are simply too different to be under the same umbrella. They have similar influences from the bible, but even the basics of multiple heavens, a mother god, pre-existing, chance to become your own god... The list is almost endless on how theologically different Mormonism is.

The argument of "no bright line" is a fallacy. There might be disagreement between when blue is shifted enough on the spectrum to be green, but when you see bright orange next to blue, you know it isn't blue.

But then, when you have a cult pre-program all its members with outrage at anyone suggesting otherwise, you'll likely get the bizarre argument that orange is blue regardless.

Any exmo that is offended by the news that others don't think they were Christians when they believed Mormonism, should wonder why they are so offended. It is probably one of the most emphasized teachings (programmings) of the cult. If you don't believe so, then why do you think you're in agreement with the LDS Church and every missionary out there?

I'm sure the LDS Church is more than happy even exmos are carrying their message forward. Their programming is effective. Think about it.

> Theologically, Christianity and Mormonism are
> simply too different to be under the same umbrella.

what utter bollox

conservative estimates reckon 34,000 denominations of 'christianity' - and all of them believe slightly different things.

there is no central agency, or body to decide 'which christians are proper christians'

and if you start to look at definitions in the bible, you simply get a glut of conflicting statements

there are woolly chriatians, liberal christians, hard line christians, fascist christians, gay-hating christians, promiscuous christians and - for all I know there's probably a sect which eschews heterosexuality.

Mormons are christian.

IMHO any group of people that call themselves Christian can find a reason why any other group of people calling them selves Christians are not.

Are fundamentalist Christians really Christian? Let's look at Christianity as it was in the beginning. Go ahead and read this link OP, it won't bite. Hard. http://pocm.info/index.html

Since mormonism claims to be the restoration of primitive christianity, the real question is, "Are christians christians?"

Timothy

Primitive christians believed they were restoring a better Jewish faith--hence the underlying quarrel about circumcision.

All religions are derivatives of previous ideas, just as all races come from other races.

There is no "pure" anything.

This thread is about angels dancing on the head of a pin. It is interesting from a POV of religious anthropology. It is amazing--truly amazing--that in the age of Wikipedia and access to information that the leaders of a large swatch of the American population can even utter the words suggesting there is a "pure" form of Christianity.

Anyone with the ability to read can figure out that Constantine created the modern concept of the Trinity, which is the yardstick most commonly applied as a Christian test.

Perhaps the litmus test is actually more like the one commonly applied to porn, "I know it when I see it."

I've got the jello, nails anyone?

Anagrammy

If we consider Mormonism, as a religion which may be Christian or may not be Christian, we should compare it with Islam. If Mormons are more different from Christians than Muslimsare, it is clear that Mormonism should be considered as non-Christian, like Christianity, as we know it now, is non-Judaic.

In order to compare Mormonism to Islam and Christianity, you would need to define Mormonism, Islam and Christianity.

Once you define Mormonism and Christianity, you need only ask, does the definition of Mormonism meet the definition of Christianity? If it does then they are Christian no matter how they compare to Islam.

Islam, or any other religion, is irrelevant in deciding if Mormonism is part of Christianity.

MJ, I guess you are too much stuck at the level of elementary logic, we know already what Christianity and Mormonism are, the question is, is the difference between Mormons and all groups of Christians, whose Christianity is not doubted, of a magnitude sufficient to consider Mormonism as a separate religion.
We are talking comperative religion here, Islam is in spite of the attention given to Isa clearly not Christian, so if Mormonism can be shown to be less related to Christianity than Islam, it would clear that Mormons do lie aboutt being Christian, or politically correct formulated: it would be clear that in Mormon talk, Christian does not mean what an atheist student of religions would consider "Christian".
On the other hand, if it is less dissimilar, it would not mean that Mormonism is Christian.

> the difference between Mormons and
>all groups of Christians,

> *whose Christianity is not doubted*

well that rules out one of the oldest and most prolific sects, the RC's. I am always seeing discussions doubting their brand of christianity as *unchristian*

and I guess you'll have to rule out most of the protestant sects, since they are merely schisms of the RC church

so that leaves? who? Mormons?

Nobody doubts that the Roman Catholic Church is a christian denomination, though they are indeed known for unchristian excesses, there are the copts, the Armenian, the Orthodox churches, the Anglican, Lutheran, Calvinist and Evangelical churches...

Not included are weird groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Science.

Wow, great minds think alike.

Is anyone else disappointed that this is not about the Riddler from Batman?