here

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/Number-of-faithful-Mormons-rapidly-declining/rvih3gOKxEm5om9IYJYnRA.cspx

Apparently their only response is to double down on manipulating Mormons back into the fold to rake in the $$$$ so they can buy up more Main Streets, Condo's and Shopping Malls in their continued efforts to turn Downtown SLC into a Mormon theme park, complete with a fairy castle for faithful sheep to take their pictures in front of when they get brainwashed in the International House of Handshakes.

Comments are overwhelmingly slamming Mormonism. Here's mine.

There are good reasons many of us, including me and my entire 5th generation Mormon family, have jettisoned "the faith of our Fathers" in the past 10 years. We could no longer in good conscience defend absurd Mormon doctrines and morally reprehensible history and we couldn't get honest answers from our Mormon leaders. They lied through their teeth to me and my family to protect 'the good name of the church', which they were far more interested in protecting than innocent children. And Yes, I can back up my claims. Every one of them. Unlike Mormons. I'll bet Mitt Romney (or any other defender of "The Faith of My Fathers") $10,000 he can't answer this question honestly, "How do you reconcile Joseph Smith and Brigham Young's (well documented) practice of polyandry (marrying other men's wives) with D&C 132:61-63, which clearly condemns polyandry as adultery?" Smith and Young's practice of Polyandry violated that 'Law of the Priesthood' (D&C 132:61-63) in about 8 different ways, not to mention the fact it violates the 10 commandments in 2 different ways and the sacred vow of marriage between a man and his wife. http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132.58-66?lang=eng http://josephsmith.net/josephsmith/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=031f001cfb340010VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD&locale=0 claims Joseph and Emma based their marriage on the gospel of Christ, an example to us all, but http://josephsmith.net/josephsmith/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=031f001cfb340010VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD&locale=0 proves he married women who were already married, like Zina Huntington Jacobs, http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/AF/individual_record.asp?recid=7106574&lds=0&frompage=0 http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/05-ZinaHuntingtonJacobs.htm Who married Brigham Young and had a child with him, while she was still married to her original husband, poor Henry Jacobs, who finally gave up hope of having his wife, Zina, all to himself after that. He died broken hearted

Enjoyed watching the News Video Report.

It's great to see that people deserve better than they are getting at LDS cult centres and LDS CON ferences and are taking themselves, their time (family too hopefully)and money elswhere more worthwhile and not allowing themselves to be cheated and abused by lying cult leaders.

MADE MY DAY!!!!

from the article

"When life is going good and we don't have as many challenges we don't turn to God," said Babbi Hill, LDS Church member

so it must be these *good* economic times that is responsible for dropping LDS activity rates. (?) ( theres some MORmON thinking for you ! )

funny I thought it might be because that with the economy collapsing ppl just cant afford the luxury of LDS BS anymore.

Here is the comment I left after reading a few from TBMs who think the reason people leave is because they lack faith...

"it is true. The faithful ARE leaving. I was 100% faithful for over 3o years. Then I found out that the Mormon church is based on a heap of lies. The bottom line is that Joseph lied about everything. When I dug deep to study church history, this what I found out. I wish I could have remained faithful. But, my integrity did allow me to stay a member of a false organization. So I resigned. There are many more out there just like me. The Mormon church is only fooling itself if it thinks keeping it's members faithful will keep them in the fold. If any of them have the courage to learn the truth....many more will be leaving too.

I read that comment, brilliant and effective. So many great voices being heard right now. Mormons really can't win this battle, no matter how much 'web optimization' they buy. Pretty soon, word gets out that they can't possibly answer honest questions about the most well documented, provably fraudulent CULT on the planet.
I've made this $10k challenge to Mormon defenders in every comment section of the WaPost, LATimes, NYTimes and now ABC,

I'll bet Mitt Romney or any other defender of 'the Faith of my Fathers' $10,000 they can't answer this question honestly, how do you reconcile the well documented FACT that the first two 'prophets' of your church practiced polyandry (married women who were already married to other men) with the FACT your God condemned polyandry as adultery, punishable by divine destruction in D&C 132:61-63?

Only one Mormon has taken me up on my offer and his response was to say these so-called 'polyandrous' marriages were hearsay. Hearsay? The LDS Church publishes hearsay on familysearch.org, which they own and which has records of every one of Smith and Young's marriages to women who were married to other men. It even lists the children Joseph Smith and Brigham Young fathered with women who were married to other men. How do you work around that?

I asked a Mormon that once at a huge table at a bar full of exMo's. Her response was priceless, "Uh, I didn't know they married women who were already married."

My response, "Yeah well, nobody keeps better records of these kinds of things than the Mormons, right? Look it up on Familysearch.org, which is run by the Mormon Church. It's got to be the stupidest religion on the planet."

followed by loud laughter and light mindedness and evil speaking of the Lard's anointed. haha



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2012 08:22AM by josephsmyth.

josephsmyth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'll bet Mitt Romney or any other defender of 'the
> Faith of my Fathers' $10,000 they can't answer
> this question honestly, how do you reconcile the
> well documented FACT that the first two 'prophets'
> of your church practiced polyandry (married women
> who were already married to other men) with the
> FACT your God condemned polyandry as adultery,
> punishable by divine destruction in D&C 132:61-63?

The excuse I've heard is that these were only "spiritual" marriages, even to the 14-year-old, and of course there was no sexual relationship. Women were still free to marry another man. So in the case of Helen, she could still be wed to a man of her choosing and as for the already married women, their husbands were not able, for whatever reason, to pull them across the veil, which was the purpose for JS to be sealed to them...or something like that.

Problems:

1) Are we downplaying the importance of Mormon sealing? I thought the Mormon sealing was every bit as important and binding as civil marriage, plus it's for eternity. A woman would be committing adultery if she were to marry another, so essentially she's locked in a non-marriage, alone, forever...or at least until the afterlife.
2) If this woman could, in fact, be married to another man, despite being sealed to some other guy, it takes away the ability for her to be sealed for eternity to her real husband.
3) It takes away the ability for the husband to be sealed to his wife (since she's sealed to another guy).
4) The husband/father in this marriage could not be sealed to his own children, since these children would be automatically sealed to the other guy.
5) Last but not least, if the purpose of polygamy was to "bring up seed," marrying someone just "in name" and not producing children would pretty much go against the word of God, would it not?

It doesn't sound good, no matter how you slice it.

The comments were some of the better one's i've seen from ex mormons. Members are going to read those, and some of them are going to start looking into the church to see what's going on. This site is going to be getting busier every day.

From the article: "...the church is attempting to ..... improve the amount of accurate information about the church on the internet."

From what I've seen the church is attempting to CONTROL what is seen.

I scoffed at this too...

The problem (for TSCC) is that the the information available is accurate. When I was investigating I would wonder "is that true?" and then would head over to FAIRLDS and sure enough it was true, what I saw was an attempt to spin the truth in such a way that it was diminished.

Exactly. They can't control this NeoNauvoo Expositor. Notice how any website sympathetic to Mormonism doesn't have an open forum for discussing ideas? That's because they can't deal with the truth. It's impossible to defend Joseph's Myth in an open forum. It's so easy to defeat Mormons in a debate, just point out that Joseph's Myth and Bring'em Young screwed other men's wives, even fathered children with other men's wives, contrary to their own 'revelation from God'. Now doesn't that bring into doubt ALL of their fraudulent claims? It does in any objective (non-delusional) mind.

hard evidence that Joseph Smith fathered children with anyone but Emma.

If you have knowledge otherwise please share as that would be extremely helpful in shining light on the fraud.

"'When life is going good and we don't have as many challenges we don't turn to God,' said Babbi Hill, LDS Church member."

Um, Babbi, in case you have not read the news for the past 4 years, times have not been good for a lot of people and they are still running aways from your god!

I wonder if the opposite of what Babbi is saying is happening. Mormons have been told over and over that if they just pay their tithing god will protect them and they will prosper. Utah has one of the highest bankruptcy rates in the country. No doubt there are likely a lot of memebers thinking WTF? The leaders told me this wouldn't happen if I paid my tithing and here I am!

Running away from God? We're running away from a hoax cult, not God. What about all those other religions?

Do you know that wards are ASSIGNED to go to General Conference? It is announced from the pulpit with much glee and enthusiasm: "It is OUR STAKE'S TURN to attend the next session of General Conference. We want everyone to attend and show our support for The Prophet (or whatever)." They used to arrange carpools, drop off (un asked-for) tickets in our mailbox, and have members call to remind us. They always give out more tickets than there are seats, so the overflow can be filmed wandering around and sitting on the grass.

I am so happy that the truth is finally coming out! I e-mailed the Reuter's article to every Mormon and ex-Mormon I know. They all knew about this, anyway, as literally every Mormon I know has had their wards combined. Our area now has only one ward per building! (The real estate here is valuable, and they want to hang onto their tax-free real estate and keep it maintained for free by the members.) Our old ward was combined with two other wards.

Transparency<>Mormonism


'this' LDS church CAN'T SURVIVE Transparency.period.

they'll talk Around it, re-define it, etc etc etc.

ain't gonna happen.

See my other post: Start of my Ltr to Jensen
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,412478



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2012 10:30PM by guynoirprivateeye.

guynoirprivateeye Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Transparency<>Mormonism
>
>
> 'this' LDS church CAN'T SURVIVE
> Transparency.period.
>
> they'll talk Around it, re-define it, etc etc
> etc.
>
> ain't gonna happen.
>
> See my other post: Start of my Ltr to Jensen
> http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,412478

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has one thing strongly working against its membership growth: it's a false religion. With thousands of internet sites proclaiming the truth about Mormonism it is increasingly difficult for Mormon missionaries to present their one-sided, dishonest views of the church. You can't fool all of the people all of the time.

I'm so glad the media has finally stopped regurgitation the 14 million member number. (Not to mention when they used to say "fastest growing church")

Reality wins in the end.

+ 1,000.

fellow adult scouters just throw that out as a matter of fact.

that's when I usually smash my beer bottle across their temple.

hey, somebody had to.

If official sources now claim there are five million active members, that can mean only one thing... That even this is a damn lie!

Let's look at the statistics: 14mn members worldwide. Half in North America and half in the rest, right? I've never seen an activity rate above 10% anywhere outside the USA, and I've known wards in Holland and Belgium, Spain and Portugal, Italy and Austria, Ecuador and Brazil. 10% of 7mn is 700,000. To reach 5mn, we need at least 4.3mn active mormons in North America, out of 7mn. That's an activity rate over 60%.

I think activity might be put at 3mn to 4mn, depending on where you draw the line between active and inactive among the less actives, NOMs and jackmormons. Your opinions? Where do you live and how high do you estimate the local activity rate?

I think you make a good point. I've heard the 5 million figure applied to self-identified Mormons. This includes inactive Mormons who still identify themselves, in whatever sense, as Mormon.

Exactly!

"depending on where you draw the line between active and inactive among the less actives, NOMs and jackmormons"

someone here recently did a similar parsing of the numbers (i can't find it tho...) and came to a similar conclusion as you - about 3 million active mormons (again, depending on how you define 'active')

when you really look at that 3 million you can easily assume that most are not the temple attending full tithe paying TBMs - anyone that has worked with ward lists knows that of the active members very few fit the above description

probly only around a million (or less?) of those

which is why each and every one of us is such a huge blow to TSCC - we weren't just part of the 14 million - most of us came out of that core group of 1 million...

Southern California activity rate in my ward has always been around 30%

"Smith and Young's practice of Polyandry violated that 'Law of the Priesthood' in about 8 different ways, not to mention the fact it violates the 10 commandments in 2 different ways and the sacred vow of marriage between a man and his wife."

I love this point, and decided I had to lay these out for the world to see:

1) "if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another... then is he justified" (D&C 132:61)

2) "and the first give her consent... then is he justified" (D&C 132:61)

3) "and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified" (D&C 132:61)

4) "he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else." (D&C 132:61)

5) "And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified." (D&C 132:62)

6) "But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed." (D&C 132:63)

7) "they are given unto him to amultiply and replenish the earth" (D&C 132:63)

8) "they are given unto him... to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world... that they may bear the souls of men" (D&C 132:63)

9) "Thou shalt not commit adultery." (Exodus 20:14)

10) "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's... wife" (Exodus 20:17)

11) "You both mutually agree to be each other's companion, husband and wife, observing the legal rights belonging to this condition: that is, keeping yourselves wholly for each other, and from all others, during your lives?" (Article on Marriage - Book of Commandments)

12) "Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again." (Article on Marriage - Book of Commandments)

13) "It is not... lawful to influence (a woman) to leave her husband." (Article on Marriage - Book of Commandments)

14) "If any person or persons within this State, being married, or who shall hereafter marry, do at any time marry any person or persons, the former husband or wife being alive, the person so offending shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by a fine, not exceeding one thousand dollars, and imprisoned in the penitentiary, not exceeding two years." (Illinois State Law, 1833)

15) "If any man or woman being unmarried, shall knowingly marry the husband or wife of another, such man or woman shall, on conviction, be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or imprisoned not more than one year." (Illinois State Law, 1833)

16) "Any man and woman who shall live together in an open state of adultery or fornication, or adultery and fornication, every such man and woman shall be indicted, and on conviction, shall be fined in any sum not exceeding two hundred dollars each, or imprisoned not exceeding six months." (Illinois State Law, 1833)

What the hell was that about? My comment was there yesterday, but some whiner must not have liked it.

I don't understand how Marlin Jensen thinks "updating" the manuals will help. The problem isn't that the manuals are out of date, or that the information that was inaccurate in them was not available. This is about "the mantle" being greater than the intellect.

The manuals were deliberately dishonest. Why were they dishonest?

Because an honest conversation of LDS history and doctrine undermines the moral authority of the General Authorities, and the fundamental identity of the LDS church as the one true restored church of God.

Once people learn that the First Vision has different versions that don't have the same implications, then the scope and mission of the LDS Church is greatly reduced. Why would a person undergo the difficult LDS missionary experience for a faith that is merely "an alternative"?

The church authorities insist that they are the authoritative voice on every issue from whether or not homosexual activity is sinful to how many earrings a person is allowed to wear. But if we look at how they have been wrong about many matters over time, the obvious question for people becomes: "Why should I listen to them and obey them now, especially if I disagree?"

The lesson manuals are a symptom of a greater culture that prohibited teachings that strayed from the mainstream view endorsed by the leaders. The LDS Church leadership has nobody to blame for this situation, but themselves. I doubt very much that they have the courage to take responsibility for it.