Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: icanseethelight ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 12:18PM

After slowly escalating over the past 3 days.

Wifey "I am not changing my mind. I have devoted my entire life to making sure that you and the kids are with me forever, it is my whole reason for existence."

Me: "But Joseph Smith was a liar, you even agree that the Book of Abraham should not be scripture."

Wifey: "Well you are a liar too."

Me: "I do not claim to have started the one true church on earth either."

Wifey: "I do not care what you believe, I just want you to sit there for 3 hours a week."

Me: "And to lie about my belief, I won't lie any more, I will get released and tell the bishop not to ask me to do anything, but I will still sit there because I love you."

Wifey: "I told you to get released 3 weeks ago."

Well I do not think she realizes what is going to happen once I out myself. But after spending so much time on here I think it will be for the best. It will let her see her fellow members in a new light, as my new honesty makes its way through the gossip train of the ward and the inevitable judgement shows through snide comments, glances and whispers. Although she is so stubborn at this point even if she did not think it was true she would not quit, just because she would not admit to being wrong.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 12:28PM

If sitting on a bench for 3 hours a week guaranteed you would go to heaven, and her with you, it would be worth it.
Sadly that's not the formula for getting to heaven. If there even is one.
I feel your frustration. Hopefully things will eventually work out so there isn't this outside force in the middle of your marriage. I hate how the church does that. It's so wrong.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: kimball ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 12:36PM

"What makes you so certain that we're not going to be together for eternity anyway? Has God build a giant impenetrable wall and is going to throw us on opposite sides if we don't go to church? Doesn't sound like any God I know, and no other religion believes it either, but even if he did I'd get straight to work secretly digging a tunnel with a dinner spoon behind a poster."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bignevermo ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 12:41PM

and you are a good egOP>.. just take it slow... like ya are!! keep us posted!!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: kimball ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 12:47PM

Dang, you're right. It's been too long since I've seen that movie. But yeah, taking it slow is better than actually saying what I said, unless you can find a way to make it sound less "mormonism's God is a jerk" -esque.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ontheDownLow ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 12:57PM

Get yourself a good bar of soap cuz there is nothing but a tunnel of poop on the other side of that wall you are heading for.

Maybe that is the river in Lehi's dream? The building you are tunneling out of is the dark building full of mockers. When you get on the beach with Andy Duframe, and start lacker thinning that boat, that is the boat of life. The lacker thinner is the chemical of most desire that gets you HiGh. And once you get HiGh, you are exhalted and have plural wives.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: yin ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 12:40PM

I would think she would want you to live with the utmost integrity possible, which would mean standing up for your convictions. This is the reason I can't stand half the Mormons in my parents' ward: I know there are many non-believers in the congregation, but they attend for appearances' sake, which to me is, like you pointed out, very deceiving.

A life with integrity would mean you are honest about how you feel, and do not allow labels put on you that don't belong to you. I would rather have a husband with unwavering integrity than a husband who sits next to me on the bench and pretends to be something he isn't.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: JoD3:360 ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 12:47PM

Sometimes peace at home requires sacrifice.
Show her that you are willing to do that, and do resign your calling.

But the most important thing is to make sure she is fully aware of everything that happens as the church tries to reign you in. Sometimes all it takes is for the mother of the home to see her family being attacked.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: icanseethelight ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 12:49PM

Our communication is getting better all the time. Undoing 20 years of passive aggresive programming and behavior does not happen overnight. I am looking forward to the next phase of my exodus, and the honesty that comes with it.

I am just frustrated that she is digging in now for the sake of digging in. She has read her scriptures more in the past 6 months than she has since we have gotten married.

I also understand that if she does open her eyes, it is going to be a much harder transition for her than it has been for me, and that is a little scary.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: upsidedown ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 12:57PM

Take it slow with your wife. The things you are finding out about are more difficult to digest for some than others. Everyone learns differently and at different speed. Regardless of who is learning there needs to be an understanding of how the individual is able to accept the information.

I grew up in the church 100% TBM....but I always was able to remain compassionate and open to normal thinking. That is not the case with everyone in the church and the voice inside them (internal repetition of ideas defending the cult), is strong and has trite answers for every road that the mind is trying to go down when searching for truth outside the cults teachings. It is difficult. My wife and I both accused each other of being apostates and "anti's" during our first month of researching mormon history and polygamy. 10 months later we are able to laugh about it and are thankful to be able to see the world clearly.....and know that mormonism was a cult of fear. Fear to think differently.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ihearyou ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 01:25PM

Not sure if I follow when you say out yourself. Simply saying to the Bishop you would like to be released and letting him know that it has nothing to do with worthiness but offer no further details if he presses...letting him draw his own conclusions. Unless of course you want to draw the bishopric out to treat you poorly so your wife truly "sees the light"...not so sure about that strategy. You are 90% there as others have stated in similar situations. She concedes that it isn't true. Right now she is operating on fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of losing her eternal family. Motherly instincts to protect are kicking in. I know...totally irrational but a reality. Give it time and let the dust settle. With any luck she will slowly see it on her own in due time and will embrace the new reality.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: icanseethelight ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 01:40PM

great advice. Thanks. I saw myself as telling the bishop I do not believe, and then give all the reasons for it. You are right, I do not owe him any explanation at all. But one of the big issues is I have a HT family (single woman) that asks for blessings constantly, so I have to get released from that as well. That is when I thought I would be explaining myself.

But if he asks, I have no problem telling him why, and he will ask, I think.

We will see what happens.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: baura ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 04:02PM

Be Honest:

The REASON for your request to be released is "personal." If he wants more details those too are "personal."

ALL he needs to know to do HIS job is that you want to be released. I show the plumber where the sink is leaking. I don't take him on a tour of my house. That's all he needs to know to do his job.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: saviorself ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 01:00PM

+1

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 01:36PM

+ another 1

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ronas ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 02:57PM

If it were me I would want to tell the bishop that I don't believe it. Not for him, for me.

What you want to avoid, probably, is getting into a long pissing match discussion of why you don't believe. Keep it at the surface that you don't believe it.

If he tries to go deeper a couple of things that can be effective:

Either tell him you have a testimony that it is NOT true - you studied it out in your mind and got a burning in your bosom that it is not true.

And / or

Bring up the 11th article of faith and ask that he follow the tenents of his own religion and respect your beliefs.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: seeker01 ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 01:29PM

"Although she is so stubborn at this point even if she did not think it was true she would not quit, just because she would not admit to being wrong."


I haven't studied psychology in a while, but I recall experiments that showed that people are reluctant to change their opinions after they have taken a public stand. I believe this is the primary reason that the LDS church encourages public testimonies. People who have publicly declared that they know Joseph Smith was a prophet, yada, yada look foolish if they change their minds, so they go on pretending.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 01:45PM

Each of have this moment where we wonder if we should just be quiet about what we know. We recognize the destructive potential of discovering the "reason for living" is actually worse than not true, it is a con. That is so harsh a person first hearing it can hardly wrap their head around the implications.

It is best to frame your apostasy in a way that emphasizes your move toward integrity IN STAGES. For example, say to a spouse, "I always want to be honest with you... I want you to always know how I really feel. Even, "Because the church is lying about its history, it's even more important for parents to have integrity so the kids have someone to turn to that they trust to tell the truth."

These are reasons you give for explaining why you have to be you. Doesn't mean you can't sit in a pew for 3 hours but you can explain to your wife that this is you being her spouse and companion. Meanwhile, no eye-rolling on your part. Every moment you spend in that pew is a love letter from you to her. It says, "No matter what happens inside my head, my love for you is stronger than my hatred of Mormonism."

Now that's a Valentine!

I have posted before that a woman feels fear when her husband says he no longer believes. What will keep him faithful to her if not the fear of Satan and the loss of the children? See how women feel like they are not loveable or worthy enough to keep the love of a good man without him being threatened with eternal damnation if he leaves her?

Good luck

Anagrammy

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: icanseethelight ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 01:49PM

Well put Anagrammy. Honesty and love. I will keep giving it to her.

And to ihearyou, I had not thought about it being fear on her part. That helps.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: upsidedown ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 01:54PM

You could be honest with yourself and the bishop if you say that your reasons are personal and you do not want to discuss them with him.

If he persists you could explain that he is not a educated nor does he hold a degree or credential in counseling or psychology. (99% never will).

If he persists more you could ask him if it is appropiate for you to ask him or anyone else in the congregation about their personal feelings or issues.....and point out that is is also imappropiate for him to ask you when you would rather it be a personal matter.

If he persists you could tell him you have decided it is best to work on things privately and have been informed that it is not best to share deep and personal feelings with him or anyone else because it could put them in a place to betray your trust and tell others the nature of your personal life.


You have many options.

Keep your personal life where it belongs. This is not a group of friends that are going to help you through this issue.

They have no "training" to help or counsel you. Unfortunately the patterns and reactionary culture that they do stick to very well in the group is to immediately start to monsterize you to the rest of the group if you tell them about your peronal life or go against the rigid accepted culture of the group.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: grubbygert ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 01:59PM

"I just want you to sit there for 3 hours a week"

my ex said that to me, too

she also wanted me to lie to get a TR so she could have a husband with her in the temple for her sister's wedding

be careful - i don't know how similar your wife is to my ex but in the case of my ex appearance was everything

talking about honesty or truth or integrity with that type just doesn't work...

my only advice is to go excruciatingly slow...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Can't Resist ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 02:28PM

My husband joined the church to marry me. He didn't believe it in the least. There were aspects that he did enjoy, like giving father's blessings, and some friends, but mostly it was a big pain in his ass.

He sat with me for 15 years, with only grumbling occasionally over the 3 hour block. He never once bore his testimony or said a public prayer or went to church without me. I appreciated that he was willing to show up and I didn't really ask for more. He expressed his concerns with the church, as did I. He was very concerned about any of our daughters marrying mormon men. Because he didn't make a huge issue over other things, I was able to hear his strong concern and really examined this issue closely.

I know that my children saw what he didn't do as much as they saw what I was doing. What they didn't see was us fighting over it.

When I had finally worked through it, and had had enough, I apologized for dragging him to church for so many years. He shrugged and said, "Oh well, I knew you would figure it out eventually, smart girl." (Yeah, real smart, only took me... many years!)

My point is that couples are not synchronized swimmers. We each are individuals first and foremost. We are all working through the things that trouble us, and growing, and we all have different paths through life, even if we are a couple. You can have a healthy, happy marriage without having identical beliefs.

To allow the church to wreck your marriage is just one more way in which the church gets the final say, the win. In my opinion, it's just not that important, especially because it's not true. In fact, it may be the Mormon thinking that makes you think that you have to have the same religion to make your family work.

Also, my theory is that when you have been on a mission you get in the habit of persuading someone into religion. Then you find out it's not true and feel the need to use the same skill set in persuading people out of the religion.

I appreciate my husband for sitting with me and letting me be me. I think I was lucky because he was raised superficially catholic and had already relegated religion to the proper place in his life, rather than having an all-consuming-paradigm.

I guess my advice, for the small value it's worth is this: you be you, and let her be her and the children will, at least, see support and respect in the dichotomy.

Sorry... bit of a ramble.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Scott.T ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 02:39PM

... DW said she still believed and would continue to do so unless god himself appeared to her and told her it wasn't true.

... I said no when asked to accept a calling and then talked to the bishop at DW's request just to let him know I no longer believed, but was otherwise still the same and living the same standards.

... kept going each week to sit with family, help mind the kids, etc.

... I would answer honestly if asked directly anything about my belief or disbelief (no pretending despite attending), but made a conscious effort not to push it on her or the kids.

... about three years later wife didn't believe anymore and a bit later we resigned as a family.

Everyone has their own pace and different triggers. I had to meet DW half way for a while to keep the peace until she had to face enough of her own questions to finally question her lifelong beliefs for herself. After that things went quickly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2012 02:41PM by Scott.T.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: icanseethelight ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 02:46PM

Appearances are very important to her. But she also loves me more than the church(thank goodness.) Me not going to the temple, holding callings etc, is a big step for us and I think the timing is right.

To Can't resist, thanks, it gives me hope that she will find her way out.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 02:56PM

I would make a few suggestions. This comes from years of living with a believer - going on 50 now. I was a convert, I was the believer that left 14 yrs ago.


This is the: Sit Down and Shut Up Rule! :-)

If you want to keep your marriage, that is.
Back off, leave discussions of Mormonism out of your daily life. Make it a non-issue. Never, challenge her beliefs or make negative comments about them or the leaders. I'm sure you don't want to be treated that way, so don't do that to her.
The negativity is going to kill your marriage. Being a Right Fighter won't get you anything but a lot of resentment. Taking it all personally is a recipe for disaster also.

You're the one that changed. You're the one that pulled the rug out from under her and the family. You are the one that needs to be very careful and patient and give everyone else time to adjust. And that can take years. Sometimes -- never. The more respectful, kind, loving, patient, etc. you are, the more likely you can preserve your marriage.

Ditch any resentment, anger, etc. and show nothing but unconditional love and forgive everyone everything. Let the past go, live in the present.
Those kinds of attitudes are so powerful, it's amazing! Try it, you might like the results! :-)

Or just go on as you are and watch it all the deterioration.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 03:09PM

Wow.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anonow ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 03:32PM

Don't talk about you wife behind her back to complete strangers......................oops.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: icanseethelight ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 03:48PM

The joy of a blind message board is I can get advice about my situation, or vent about it, where I never could in RL. And if someone in my circle of influence recognizes the situations I am describing then they are going through the same things I am, at least at some level, or they would not be here.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 03:52PM

People get to discuss their IRL problems - including people.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ihearyou ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 03:53PM

Exactly...This is a BLIND board. It is an outlet for those that need to get perspective they couldn't otherwise for risk of doing with anonow suggests.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: icanseethelight ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 03:42PM

SusieQ#1 - I know you have never held back how you feel on this board and I respect you for that, but I think you have the wrong idea, I am neither resentful or angry, and I do not have the expectation that she change her beliefs. I have hope, but no expectation.

I am at the point where I have two children who do not believe the church is true and they need support in their home so they do not go into the tailspin of depression and lashing out that so often comes in a rigid authoritative home.

Until that was the case I was content to quietly mock the church and let the church provide me with a much needed tax write off. Now that I see the damage that can be done to children's psyche, I must take the next step.

But for the record, I am the forgiving provider of unconditional love in our relationship, not her. A fact which she freely admits, much to her chagrin.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 03:51PM

No marriage should be one where one partner is supposed to "sit down and shut up."

You may not agree on everything - but to have a big part of yourself just completely smothered - while the other partner gets free reign is NO kind of functional relationship.

If she gets to voice her opinions - so do you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 11:49AM

Raptor Jesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No marriage should be one where one partner is
> supposed to "sit down and shut up."
>
> You may not agree on everything - but to have a
> big part of yourself just completely smothered -
> while the other partner gets free reign is NO kind
> of functional relationship.
>
> If she gets to voice her opinions - so do you.

Oh Good Grief, people. Get opinions. Yes. Sit down and Shut up is not a literal position to take. It's point of view that stops the continual haggling.Especially after expressing it dozens of times ad nauseum. :-) Someone needs to Back Off. And stop bugging the person. Give them time... that's what I mean by sit down and shut up... let things jell, be patient. Stop pushing. That's what that comment is about.
And, it works! Try it! :-)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 11:51AM

icanseethelight Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SusieQ#1 - I know you have never held back how you
> feel on this board and I respect you for that, but
> I think you have the wrong idea, I am neither
> resentful or angry, and I do not have the
> expectation that she change her beliefs. I have
> hope, but no expectation.
>
> I am at the point where I have two children who do
> not believe the church is true and they need
> support in their home so they do not go into the
> tailspin of depression and lashing out that so
> often comes in a rigid authoritative home.
>
> Until that was the case I was content to quietly
> mock the church and let the church provide me with
> a much needed tax write off. Now that I see the
> damage that can be done to children's psyche, I
> must take the next step.
>
> But for the record, I am the forgiving provider of
> unconditional love in our relationship, not her.
> A fact which she freely admits, much to her
> chagrin.


I use that term to suggest someone back off, stop bothering the other person, stop being negative and stop pushing.
It's not literal, of course. Nobody is going to actually "sit down and shut up" -- it's a position that gives room for ideas to be considered and processed.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 11:55AM

From the sounds of things he's been doing his best to give his wife space and she's the one pushing it -- apparently through the children.

What worked for you is not going to work for every other person. It's both arrogant and condescending of you to assume otherwise.

I've noticed that you seem to go through cycles. For a while you offer sound, tactful advice -- then you start criticizing those with issues with the church (not even necessarily in marriages, just in general). Do these cycles follow some issues at your home that you bring here instead of working out at home? Why the back and forthing? (Just curious.)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ronas ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 04:09PM

I definitely have some similar things going on with my wife and I. I haven't gone to priesthood for a long time - my wife wasn't happy about it when I quit going but she realized that there wasn't much point to me going there alone when I didn't believe.

She is now to the point that she prefers me to go to Sunday School with her but doesn't care that much. Sometimes I go, sometimes I don't. She even says she can deal with me not going to sacrament meeting, but I know it means a lot to her so I still go most weeks. Evetually my wife got to the point where she was ready for me to officially resign from the church.

I think your current approach is good. You may find over time that your wife like mine cares less about you going to church and you may be able to back off somewhat on attendance as she is ready for it. You are definitely wise to wait until she is ready. Avoiding charged discussions about religion has been helpful for us I think. We have had a few fairly direct discussions, but we are pretty much to the point that we have agreed to disagree and have agreed that we can both respect where the other is at so there isn't much more to talk about and we spend our time and energy on other things.

One thing that has been an eye opener to me is the Myers-Briggs personality profiles stuff. I'm an INFP and like creativity, adventure, and change. My wife is an ISTJ and life is all about stability, security, and fulfilling her duty. Her personality is all about holding up the "institution" whatever that institution may be - church, family, etc. So for her to look at changing her beliefs or even to change her life when questioning her beliefs is much more difficult than for me. From what I have read of your posts it sounds like you and your wife may have a similar dynamic as far as personalities go. It has been helpful for me to be less frustrated with her to understand that her response of not being able to look at the facts objectively because it threatens her sense of stability and security is a natural outlet of who she is. Perhaps given time she will be able to slowly let it go, perhaps not.

You may be surprised how people in the ward respond. Other than one super annoying visit with the bishop in his office everyone has been very kind to me and my family - and the bishop is already well known in the ward as a big jerk - and even he has behaved well on all other occassions where I've bumped into him. It's almost surprising how no one dares say much of anything about my obvious lack of attendance in priesthood and often gospel doctrine. The people I was friends with and friendly with in the ward are still my friends. For example, I still ride bikes with the EQP. My wife & I still get together to play games with the EQ first counselor. The first counselor in the bishopric and I are still friends. None of them bring up religion. It hasn't been a big deal.

+1 to your comment about it being OK to talk about things on an anonymous forum. It is a safe place to vent and get ideas without impacting your wife's relationships with others you know if real life.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Can't Resist ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 04:12PM

If you are a "forgiving provider of unconditional love," then you are 95% there.

Just be true to yourself, love the stuffings out of your family, watch and wait. All we have is time...plenty of it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: icanseethelight ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 04:43PM

Thanks for the support. And I will say that I have never been shy about questioning doctrine and culture. One of my favorite rants as a TBM was about D&C 89, so I am sure that as this continues to develop, there will not be a lot of shock, but there are some holier-than-thou's that will sniff and sneer. But that is ok too.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Can't Resist ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 05:08PM

The second comment hubby made after I told him I was done with church was, "so can I buy a bottle of Michter's bourbon now?"

My parents are going to freak out when they see that our food supply consists mainly of vodka and bourbon...Let the chips fall where they may.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: emma ( )
Date: February 15, 2012 07:03PM

The sad part of situations like this, where spouses are forced to go to church is that someone's freedom of religion is being violated. OP has the right under the constitution to not attend church if he doesn't want to. Also, like another poster said, a marriage where once spouse has to sit down and shut up is a dictatorship, not a marriagem imo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2012 07:03PM by emma.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 12:11PM

Since this comes up so much I wrote a paper giving my perspective. By the way, given how forthrightly you and your wife communicate, I'm betting you'll work things out. Her biggest concern is keeping the family together, so you'll want to keep addressing that in a positive way.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Making Marriage Work for Ex-Mormon/Mormon Couples


I have been a casual observer of mixed religious marriages of former or unbelieving Mormons through an e-mail list and discussion board for former and unbelieving Mormons. It appears to me that unrecognized couples development issues underlie these religious struggles. In fact, from this perspective, mixed marriage couples have two tasks, each related to the other: individuating within the couple relationship while individuating from Mormonism.

In Quest of the Mythical Mate, by psychotherapists Ellyn Bader and Peter T. Pearson, provides a developmental model for couple relationships based on the concept that, like individuals, develop from a state of symbiosis toward a fully developed state of interdependence. The process may take years, and if successful, its culmination is characterized by partners who are able to participate fully as themselves in the world while relating intimately with one another.

Summary of Bader and Pearson’s Developmental Model

Symbiotic Stage

According to Bader and Pearson’s model couple relationships begin with Symbiosis. The purpose of this stage is to bond, creating a couple relationship based on the feeling and perception of “oneness.” It is characterized by “falling in love,” the merging of personalities, and intense bonding. As anyone who has fallen in love knows this stage feels wonderfully good and exciting. The lovers magnify similarities and overlook differences and are capable of deep passion and mutual giving. If all goes well, the individuals become a couple. (Bader and Pearson p. 9.) Challenges at this stage may include loss of identity, fear of abandonment, and fear of engulfment. Recognition and expression of differences may arouse anxiety and interactions may focus on masking them. (Bader and Pearson pp. 244-245)

Within Mormonism, “oneness” is highly valued, with oneness meaning observant Mormons are ideally in complete agreement and compliance with LDS teaching and practice. Dissonance is discouraged and sometimes punished with expulsion from the group. Because the Mormon ideal is to live as family units in the afterlife, failure to fulfill Mormon ideals is serious issue for believers. LDS psychotherapist Marybeth Raynes insightfully describes this expectation of similarity and some of its consequences:

"With a strong emphasis in the Church on finding a right and wrong way for everything, identical religious thought and action between marriage partners is encouraged. Where there are differences, one spouse must be wrong. Ironically, any church that has many criteria for goodness sets up as many points for conflict as for congruency. (This is true generally: the more areas two or more people want to share, the more areas for potential disagreement emerge. This is why friendships often work better than marriages; we sharply limit the number of concerns which overlap with our friends and often become really close to only those with whom we agree.) We may be unwittingly sharpening a double-edged sword as we increase the number of rituals and programs a couple must share as a condition for a happy marriage." (Raynes, Marybeth. Issues of Intimacy: A Mixed Religious Marriage, Sunstone Magazine, March 1985, p. 40.)

Differentiation

Once the ecstasy of the Symbiotic Stage begins to diminish, the partners begin to see the relationship more objectively and they enter the Differentiation Stage. In the Differentiation Stage, the partners begin to reassert individual boundaries. Partners notice differences and may want to have time alone. At this point, if differentiation happens suddenly or cannot be tolerated by one or both partners, the relationship may end. (Bader and Pearson p. 10) Often one partner begins to differentiate before the other. Challenges at this stage may include the symbiotic partner feeling betrayed and threatened as the other partner begins to differentiate. The differentiating partner may feel guilty for the perceived betrayal and anger at the lack of recognition and acceptance of difference. (Bader and Pearson pp. 246-247)

For Mormon couples, conflicts can arise when a partner individuates from the Mormon faith as well as from the partner. Depending on the degree and kind of change, as well as the believing partner’s own views and needs, he or she may feel loss and threat on several levels: personal, familial, social, and existential. Some believing partners may feel betrayed, having entered into the marriage with the understanding that the integrity of the marriage is guaranteed by a shared belief and commitment to Mormonism. The questioning of that belief and commitment may call the marriage into question as well as the integrity of the less-believing or non-believing partner.

Practicing

As differentiation proceeds, the couple enters the Practicing Stage. At this point, partners turn energy away from the relationship and toward their own needs and toward their own interests in the outside world. The defining characteristic of this stage is “I want to be me!” The partners are busy discovering themselves as individuals. They are less attuned to their partner and the relationship. Partners may become self-centered and concerned with their personal power. This stage is marked by conflict. Successful conflict resolution and negotiation skills are needed to maintain the relationship. (Bader and Pearson p. 11) Challenges at this stage are successful conflict management and maintaining empathy and emotional connection. The danger at this stage is irreparable damage to the relationship or its loss. (Bader and Pearson pp. 248-249)

For the questioning or former Mormon, this phase not only entails turning energy to other interests but can and often does entail a transformation of identity, world view, and changes in affiliation and social status. The believing partner may at this time feel frightened and betrayed and also experience an unwelcome change in status within his or her ward due to the partner’s changes. The non-believing partner may also feel afraid of losing his or her family and friends and may treat the process of change as a battle that has to be won against the partner and social community. He or she may forget that being himself or herself also entails a commitment to allow the partner to also be himself or herself, however the partner defines that, if the relationship is to survive. Because differentiation is hard-won, sometimes at great personal and social cost, a partner who is or appears to be opposing change may be quickly defined as “the enemy.”

Each partner may also seek and find sources of personal support in increased church activity or in affiliation with groups critical of Mormonism. While this move is natural and may be helpful for the individual partner, the danger is the couple will feel not only that they have little in common, but they become proxies for conflicting ideologies. Battling over ideological issues can quickly obscure and destroy the deeply personal and vital elements of friendship that underlie and support intimacy and commitment to the relationship.

To prevent or lessen the tendency to define the believing partner as “the enemy” it may be helpful for the couple to set aside or “bracket” religious issues for an agreed-upon time while working on the conflict management skills and to build their “marital friendship.”
Two sets of conflict management skills are essential: The couple needs avoid behavior destructive to the relationship, especially contempt, criticism (as opposed to complaint), defensiveness, and stonewalling (“the silent treatment”). At the same time, the couple needs to recognize, develop, and use repair skills during and after conflicts to reaffirm commitment to the partner and the relationship.

Rapprochement

If things have gone well and the couple has maintained their friendship and each has developed a secure sense of identity, there is a shift again in the relationship towards intimacy and vulnerability while at the same time each partner maintains an independent identity. The relationship holds a balance between "I" and "We." Partners nurture one another consistently and are able to negotiate changes with little threat to the relationship. They can give to one another when it is inconvenient without feeling put upon. (Bader and Pearson pp. 11, 250) Challenges in this stage include finding the right balance between the needs of the individuals and the needs of the relationship. Over-compromise is the main temptation, as the cessation of conflict is pleasant. However, stress comes mainly from outside the relationship rather than from within it. (Bader and Pearson p. 250)

An issue faced by many ex-Mormons is having established a separate identity, sometimes at great cost in personal relationships and social standing, how much can be compromised for the beliefs of the partner and still maintain a sense of identity and integrity? The believing partner, of course, has the same issue. Ideally, in day-to-day practice, the couple develops mutually acceptable ways of addressing the issues presented to them by both the Mormon and non-Mormon world. The challenge is not only to avoid over-compromise but to avoid becoming engaged in ideological battles when new issues arise.

The couple will also need to recognize that every long-term, intimate relationship includes intractable problems that can be managed but not resolved. John Gottman’s work, again, provides practical research-based information and exercises for doing this, such as postponing problem-solving, taking turns talking about one another’s dreams within conflicts, looking for areas of flexibility where couples can work together, and supporting spouses’ dreams to the degree possible. (Gottman, Ten Lessons to Transform Your Marriage, chapter 5)

Mutual Interdependence

At this stage, the relationship each partner relates more fully to both the outside world and to one another, secure in the knowledge and experienced of being loved and accepted for themselves. The partners are able to reconcile the ideal and perfect with the real. They reach a stage of mutual interdependence in which two mature people relate from the basis of growth, shared interest, vulnerability, and love rather than need. (Bader and Pearson pp. 11-12.)

At this point the couple will have consciously determined how and how much of a role Mormonism will play in their relationship as a couple and for each of them as individuals. They will have largely reconciled the ideal and perfect with the real and the possible. The enjoyment of particular individuals committed to one another will take precedence over commitments to ideologies and fantasies of what “should be.”

A Few Recommendations

Realize that couples relationships evolve and change, and some conflict is expected in the process. Often one partner will be in the position of changing and the other in the position of trying to “catch up.” Conflict does not mean one partner is bad and the other is good or that one is necessarily right and the other wrong.

Find and focus on areas of agreement and mutual interest. Keep communication open and as much as is honestly possible, emphasize what is working, what is positive, and what you appreciate. Satisfying marriages have a positive to negative communication ratio of 5:1.

Articulate disagreement as complaints rather than criticisms. Criticisms attack character, whether of your partner or of your partner’s belief system. Complaints focus on behaviors and actions rather than character. Ideally, a complaint could (and would) be presented as a request for positive action (a request to do a different behavior rather than a request to stop a behavior).

Focus on working through differences and creating situations that work for the both of you rather than fighting about “who is right.” Beware of becoming a proxy for ideological positions, whether “Mormon” or “Ex-Mormon.”

When you recognize you are stuck or gridlocked as a couple on an issue, set aside the question of who is right and look at how you are communicating rather than what you are communicating. It can be helpful to agree to set aside a particular issue for a mutually agreed upon amount of time to work on aspects of the relationship that are working.

When you do return to a difficult issue, listen closely and ask your partner about the underlying dream the issue represents. You may find you can support aspects of your partner’s dream while at the same time recognizing you do not share the entire dream or your partner’s methods of fulfilling it.

I highly recommend obtaining a copy of Ten Lessons to Transform Your Marriage, by John Gottman, Ph.D. It is very readable and practical, and it is based on empirical research with thousands of couples. Dr. Gottman addresses the issue of what to do with intractable issues, such as those ex-Mormon/Mormon couples face (although he does not address Mormonism itself).

If you and your partner are talking about divorce or splitting up, seriously consider making an appointment with a relationship counselor you both can agree upon. Get recommendations from other people who have had good experiences working with a counselor on similar issues. The most important quality of a counselor is you both feel comfortable with the counselor and he or she is interested in helping work through your problems on your own terms.

Conclusion

Viewing relationship through a developmental lens provides a perspective that change and conflict are inherent in couple relationships is not fault of either partner. When one partner is committed to Mormonism and the other is the process of questioning and rejecting it to a greater or a lesser degree, the issues of individuation and the possibility for break-up may be acute. By becoming educated about how relationships develop, about conflict management, and about specific issues presented by the Mormon belief and lifestyle, I hope ex-Mormons and their partners will divorce less often and experience greater satisfaction in their relationships.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 01:01PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Can't Resist ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 12:30PM

That is excellent!

It seems to me that many mormon's rely on the counsel of their bishops and various statements from GA's regarding marriage and when they finally wake-up, they find that they haven't really built the skills or had good solid advice on marriage to weather a dramatic change in ideology.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: notmo ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 01:03PM

"I don't want to lose my forever family"

SIL once said this to me and I gently had to point out that if it's all a lie then your 'forever family' is just an illusion as well.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed. Please start another thread and continue the conversation.