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Posted by: Grey Matter ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 08:52PM

Friends

Have you ever thought about giving yourself permission to deconstruct your patriotism or nationalism?

We were well and truly brain washed by the Cult of mormonism.

Does anyone else think that partiotism may be just a cult?

Or is that too sensitive, too close to the bone to bear inspection?

Kind regards

Grey

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Posted by: thingsithink ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 08:53PM

That's a no brainer grey matter. Once you start deconstructing, its hard to stop. I think the conclusion as to whether patriotism and/or nationalism is a cult depends on the person because it means something different to everyone. Or, in the process of deconstructing, you change your idea of patriotism to something that you think works.


BTW, I think you're question is an excellent one. I think you're suggesting there are other demons to slay besides religion, which we don't realize, and I agree.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2012 09:23PM by thingsithink.

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Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 08:53PM


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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 08:57PM

Like religion, I think patriotism depends on a lot of factors. If your idea of patriotism is that your country is always right and always better than any other country then I think you have a problem. If you can be rational about it and see the bad with the good, then I think it can be good.

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Posted by: honestone ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 10:46PM

I agree....there is nothing wrong with being proud of where you were born and the rights and privileges we have here and how we can be thankful for those who came before us fighting to keep a nation together so it would not splinter. Once you have a country I can not imagine doing anything but making it better with activism on issues that mean a great deal to you -regardless of party affiliation. I can not imagine spending my time tearing it down. If it is so bad I say leave and go find something better. Good luck with that.

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Posted by: honestone ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 10:49PM

One thing I noticed about Canadians who I met in the late 80's was that they were much more excited about their ancestry - where they came from - European primarily and they got very specific. They were amazed at us Americans who did not have so many details about our families- 3 and 4 generations ago. They rarely spoke of their pride in Canada.I thought it was real strange.

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Posted by: thingsithink ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 09:01PM

Suzie Q,

This one is a lob, right in your wheelhouse. Swing for the fence. Different countries, different tribes, all the same. I'm dying to hear your take. :)

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Posted by: derrida ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 09:55PM

It's a good point. Once you get practice at breaking the back of an epistemology, a way of seeing--something many people never do, but which Mormonism, because of its patent absurdity, leads many sensible people to almost by necessity--you start to see that most reality claims rest on nothing very solid. The insight will make a philosopher of you if you hew to it as you dig into what actually matters and when, how, and why. Socrates was willing to die for the truth of the polis, its idea of justice. He was a citizen of Athens. Today our cynicism can, like an acid wash, easily wipe away many of the claims of patriotism, nationalism, claims on our freedom, assorted Others seeking our allegiance to notions of family, ideas of love, or brands of toothpaste, cars, or beers.

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Posted by: hobblecreek ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 10:10PM

I don't consider myself particularly patriotic anymore. Frankly, I finding myself caring less and less about politics as well.

"Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher; all is vanity."

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Posted by: grubbygert ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 10:13PM

sadly, yes

and it's not that i'm a pessimist in everyday life but on the topic of both religion and politics i'm very, well, jaded

i try not to be a party-pooper about it but when everyone around me is all, "go team USA!" about things like [redacted/political] or [redacted/political] or even [redacted/political] i see the exact same mechanisms at work that keep TSCC going

it just seems that the overwhelming majority like to be told what to do/think and like to think that they're right and everyone else is wrong and they like to worship leaders (no matter how obviously sh!+ they are) and so on

it's a bizarre world out there....

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Posted by: Don Bagley ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 10:29PM

Nothing should be immune from deconstructive logic. But remember that relationships are not always hostile. Those that are mutually beneficial are known as symbiosis, and need to be preserved.

Example: I worked all my life in the USA and paid taxes faithfully. Now I'm retired and the social security account which was built up between me, the Government, and my employers, pays me monthly. So I have a vested interest in preserving the American political system.

Negative example: I was raised in the Mormon church. I have a lot of horrible childhood memories, discipline and abuse, and the expectation that I will pay the church for shoving my face into a grindstone. So I have a vested interest in tearing down the Mormon empire with prejudice.

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Posted by: augustsummerdawn ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 10:36PM

i am ex mormon by choice american by birth place czech and native am by ethnic background and myself by how i was molded by ethnicity,environment, experiences.

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Posted by: Gay Philosopher ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 11:38PM

Grey,

What you're talking about is what, in philosophy, we call the metaphysics of identity. What is a person? This is a question that, on practical terms, is best answered by sociologists.

I suggest that it's possible to "deconstruct" your identity until you're left with a naked, isolated, Homo sapiens sapiens animal, but we don't see that "in the wild." People are rooted in culture, which is rooted in history, and religion is a particularly potent fabric in which to clothe the human animal and root it in a collective identity that stretches back for thousands of years and renews an unbroken community lineage.

Forget about Mormonism as a religious philosophy that makes various ontological and moral truth claims. What it really is, on a practical level, is an institution that reinforces various values and modes of living. It provides a template--an outline. It's up to each individual member to paint within that outline--to paint out his or her life.

Mormonism is, first and foremost, a way of bonding through culture, which comprises shared meanings and an identity that transcends the individual. It provides adherents a roadmap for life and a social niche in which there is a place for them.

Of course, nationalism achieves the same objective, but the more people that you add (e.g. going from a local chess club, to a state association, to a national group, to national-ISM), the more diffuse (loose) the association among members becomes, usually. What you're ultimately talking about is group affiliations. You're asking people: Which groups do you affiliate with, and why? Have you ever thought critically about your affiliations, or simply accepted them by default?

These are good questions. One criterion that I would use as a measuring stick by which to evaluate the wisdom of being part of any group is this: Does your affiliation with a group cause you or others harm? If so, it's wise to leave. In some cases, the opposite is true. But, the opposite can be true, even while the founding tenets of an association are provably false, as is the case with Mormonism.

As with most things in life, logic only takes one so far. Life is sloppy, murky, and ambiguous. There are lots of tradeoffs. Rarely is anything clearcut. For that reason, there are some very brilliant individuals who know better than to believe in resurrected Jesi, and yet, they retain the Catholicism of their parents, and grandparents, and so on, to retain a connection to a tradition that gives them an identity that feels meaningful to them.

We don't have much choice to affiliate with one group or another (and usually, many). Each accomplishes something different, from providing emotional support, such as a religious group usually does, to entertainment, such as an amateur theater company might, to education, such as a computer club might.

Our affiliations are modes by which we enter into a community that transcends just our own egos. In joining, we become parts of superorganisms, which demonstrate emergent properties--new and novel behaviors that can't be inferred by examining the individual members.

Group affiliations come down to practicality (the satisfaction of individual needs) and are also shaped by Darwinian forces, such as dominance hierarchies. That's why, in any group of sufficient size, a leadership hierarchy emerges. There are alpha males, and betas, and gammas, and...

Thus, if you call patriotism (I think you meant to say nationalism) a cult, then so is everything else, really. The alternative is to live life as a hermit, but that wouldn't be very successful.

Do you agree?

Steve

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Posted by: munchybotaz ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 02:34PM

One is just a little more extreme than the other. I would argue that the willingness to sacrifice and die for a country and the reverence for those who do it--which many people call patriotism, regardless of defensive or aggressive circumstances--are extreme and really very nationalistic.

What I want to address, though, is the romantic view of Mormonism that's woven throughout your post and especially evident in your sixth paragraph.

Mormonism isn't just another culture, or template for living, or emotional support group, or whatever you want to call it. Mormonism was created for the purpose of separating the members from their money and does so, to this day, by isolating and preventing them from fully experiencing life and the world. That's harmful. All this other crap about values and identity and support is just a cover for an immoral purpose.

So, if the purpose is immoral and the group is harmful, affiliating with the group is harmful to others--even if you don't happen to know or care that your money is being stolen and your experience limited. It's harmful because your affiliation helps to perpetuate the group.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2012 02:41PM by munchybotaz.

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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 11:55PM

I abandoned credence in the myths of the American republic when JFK was murdered. I was 14 years old at that time.

It was obvious the system didn't work in the way the propagandists portrayed it. I had already seen thru the military machine, and the rest collapsed quickly.

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Posted by: Greg ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 11:57PM

I started deconstructing patriotism/nationalism many years ago, when I was still living in Provo, which seems to be the capital of all things patriotic.

It seemed idiotic, narrow-minded, ethnocentric, and morally wrong to me. "god bless America"... gag. I don't particularly believe in God, but if I did, I might suggest "god bless the world and everyone in it equally".

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 12:03AM

And having had the opportunity to live in England and visit Germany; I can honestly say that I like home the best. (Although I'd love to go back to both places again for visits. There's nothing like going to another country to put yours in perspective, warts and all.)

I wouldn't say I'm excessively patriotic, however. I mainly prefer America because it's familiar. :)

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Posted by: MarkJ ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 12:12AM

Billions of dollars and the bodies of millions of youth spent and broken. Go Team!

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 12:09PM

I grew up with a damaged father in constant pain and with a very, very short fuse. Sports have never been "sacred" to me. I was really grateful that my son resisted the pressure to play football. Several coaches thought he'd make a great quarterback. He did folk dancing instead. :)

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 12:13AM

If the USA is so bad, why are so many risking life, limb, and family to be here?

I would like to hear from someone who has done this. Not someone who is bred and born USA.

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Posted by: Greg ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 12:30AM

Looking back at the posts so far, I don't see that anyone is saying America is bad. It's not the country, it's the attitude that it's the BEST country, ordained of God and "special" in His eyes, better than all the rest, etc etc.

It seems to be strongly tied to the prevailing religion(s) in a given country.

The cult of nationalism is foolish and ignorantly arrogant.

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Posted by: Ragnar ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 01:11AM

We moved to the U.S. (SLC, Utah) when I was an infant, and I blame the stupid LDS Inc for it. My mother converted, and she was told to "Go to Zion!" by the church. My father didn't want to leave his country - he had just fought a war (and been imprisoned for a time) trying to protect his country against Germany. But my mother insisted and insisted and insisted. She made an appointment for my father to meet with the Mission President, and when he left the meeting after an hour, he agreed to go. I've never understood why a church that claims to be a universal/international church would request that its foreign converts go to Utah - wouldn't it be better to build up their so-called church in the various countries? But that's what they did in those days...

Growing up, I hated having a different name that no one could pronounce, not knowing the language well enough (we spoke our native language at home for several years), not having any roots or relatives here, and not knowing many of the cultural differences. We were reminded EVERY DAY that we were different and didn't really belong. I remember once being told by a neighbor lady to "go back where you came from" [my mother had a heated discussion with her...]. It took many years before I felt comfortable with the language and culture here.

In school, when we were forced to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, I replaced "to the United States of America" with "to the united states of [my home country]."

I've never bought that line that the U.S. is the best, most free, and richest country in the world. I've looked at it with objective eyes, and I can see where it has its good points and its problems. And I can see that there are other places in the world that have more freedoms, other places that have more wealth (per capita - and are not in debt natioanlly).

The BEST country in the world is the one that is best for you - what you are comfortable with and that has those values and factors that meet your needs and desires.

In my case, I'm returning to the country of my birth. My retirement is effective in 3 1/2 months, and I will be leaving within a week after that. I have my retirement home built there, and I have my residence permit approved.

The bad part is that I've been away for so long (even though I've returned there many times over the years for visits and short stays), that I will likely be treated as a semi-foreigner there. But at least my name is familiar to people there, I have extended family there, and I have roots there that go back several hundreds of years. I see this as trying to correct the 'wrong' that the LDS Corp inflicted on our family (through my mother) many years ago.

I'm not dissing the U.S. - it has great potential and capacity for good, but I also see where it has made mistakes with its own people and with some other countries in the world. It works for many people who live here. For me, however, I choose to go home.

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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 03:57AM

I'm happy for you too Ragnar. Have a beautiful life in your return home, that is very cool.

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 01:23AM

Just curious, not judging. Would you have had the retirement money you have if your parents hadn't left?

I have connections to Cuban relatives. If Cuba wasn't a communist country they could go home and live like kings. It could still happen in their lifetime.

However, if they didn't have American retirement money they would be poverty stricken.

I don't think this is the case for everyone. I do think that is common though.

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Posted by: Ragnar ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 01:36AM

"Would you have had the retirement money you have if your parents hadn't left?"

Absolutely - in fact, my retirement income would have been better had we stayed.

Now, I also have to worry about currency exchange rates and fluctuations. When the dollar is strong, I'll be OK; when it weakens, it makes a difference of $200 to $300 less per month. So, I'm encouraging everyone in the U.S. to try to get the politcians to get the federal deficit spending under control (that'll help strengthen the dollar on world currency exchange markets)... :)

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Posted by: munchybotaz ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 04:46AM

You betcha! Only when we get down to no possessions do I start to have a problem.

I'm kind of a different bear on this board in that I was only forced to participate in Mormonism for a few years as a teenager. My atheist grandpa with the pink car told me when I was really little that there was no god, and I thought he might be right. Later, when my idiot parents dragged me to church, it felt weird and wrong and didn't stick. I blew it off as soon as I got out on my own and didn't think much about it for the next 23 years.

So for me it wasn't a process of deconstructing Mormonism and then other stuff. I realized all the other John-Birchy crap that was pounded into my head was crap, long before it dawned on me that Joseph Smith was a con man. That happened in 2003, while reading Under the Banner of Heaven. And then I went, "Oh! It's a cult."

Why my dad, who thought John Lennon was another one of many communist threats, bought me his second solo album for Christmas in 1971 is a mystery. But, yeah, I've imagined there's no countries. Countries are about protecting resources and really mostly the wealth and power of those who run them. I think most of the borders that divide the world into piles of money will eventually be abolished, and it will be a very good thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2012 04:50AM by munchybotaz.

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Posted by: E2 ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 06:54AM

There are good and bad things about patriotism. But anyway, if there were no patriotism, this country would be dead. People need to support the country. Otherwise, the alternative we're talking about here is pretty much a barbarian society (which would suck).

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Posted by: ontheDownLow ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 11:05AM

I am a bit of a revolutionary but not because I am violent. I read somewhere that the system needs to be cleansed every 10 years or so cuz the curruption resurfaces that quick. I would say that our current system is very broken.

But I still like or system better than others. We just need tons of checks and balances.

As far as history goes on the whole, if you listen to the very first part of the voice over on the movie Braveheart, it mentions that history is written by the victor of the wars. It makes me wonder how much of what we understand history to be is what it says.

when I was tbm I looked forward to watching our lives on the big screen but unedited or tainted. It may have been interesting to see so many variances in the truth.

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Posted by: sayhitokolob4me ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 11:22AM

You're question seems to infer a particular order in deconstructionism. I deconstructed my Patriotism before I began on Mormonism.

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Posted by: imaworkinonit ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 11:27AM

"our country is the best, and we are God's favorite county". In fact, I really HATE that way of thinking.

But I'm glad I live in the US. We have it pretty good.

But we also have plenty of "warts". I think we could stand to learn a few things from Canada and Europe. And I mean from both positive things they have done, and mistakes they have made.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 12:06PM

Just like religion uses "God" and "Jesus" to get you to do the bidding of the MEN who run the religion, "patriotism" is used by government leaders to get you to do their bidding.

I saw a bumpersticker once that summed it up nicely:

IF YOU CAN'T LOVE YOUR COUNTRY AT LEAST HATE THE GOVERNMENT

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Posted by: bignevermo ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 12:17PM

I know of at least one very important time and place in the world where it did happen...WWII and Hitler...it was very cultish...you have the requisite worshiped leader who ruled over all and who required loyalty oaths and required its young boys to be "Hitler Youth" that were very much "brainwashed...yeah there is more but you see the point. Our Nationalism such as it is is so diverse that it would be hard to define...
so to answer the question from the subject line... Patriotism can and has been a cult...is it likely to happen on such a scale again? i think not...especially in the U.S.
just sayin!

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Posted by: elee ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 12:23PM

The U.S. has much to offer. But like everywhere else, we have our share of problems as well.

But yes, patriotism and nationalism can easily become cults. In the U.S., it trends toward cults of personality. Look at the media icons who are held up as paragons of American virtue.

Bleah. And I don't care who's doing the evangelizing. If they are telling half truths and spinning the facts to serve their agenda, they deserve to be ignored.

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