I attended the service for my stillborn grandson on Monday. He had trisomy 18 and had so many problems he just couldn't survive.

The ward members were very kind in helping the family get everything ready.

The service was just tender and sweet. Then the bishop got up and said that it was sad, but that we should all rejoice because this baby was now in the celestial kingdom and that he didn't need to experience the test of mortal life. It felt like he was saying we should stop mourning now and be so happy this had happened.

For one brief moment I wanted to punch him.

So tragedies of children's death are a blessing and the rest of us are screwed?

Who would worship that god?

give the guy a Break; he was trying to comfort the family;
Prolly 'the best' he could.

The death of a child is horrible, but for believers the idea that the child is in a better place is a comfort of sorts.My family lost a child a few years ago and the hope that he somewhere else and happy is comforting. I am not sure what I believe, but I have hope there is something else. I agree. Give the guy a break. There really is nothing good to say in the case of a child's death.

I agree with gemini you get what you pay for.
The Guy has no formal grief counseling training and should not pretend to. At a time like this, and I am not sure a funeral for a stillborn is appropiate, it just seems silly for god to send a spirit child to earth just to have them bounce off the face of the earth and end up back at kalob. what's happy about that?

It's stupid!

Family and Friends we are here to mourn the loss of a soul that we never had the opportunity to know, love, nurture and see grow into a son , a grandson, a brother and a friend.

Please pray with me that he gets another chance to know life as we know it, and gets a chance to live life at it’s fullest



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 10:56PM by Bal.

Don't give him a break. Ignorance is not an excuse when it comes to the law. WHy should it be when it comes to common sense and decency? Keep holding Mormons to the same standard that we hold the rest of the people we interact with. We should all want to quietly take this guy to the side and explain why this was not the best thing to say.

That is very sad! My nephew had Anencephaly, and it was very sad. He was born and three days later died. :(

You should have punched the bishop.

The guy is clueless.

I'm so sorry he made the situation worse when the grieving family needed comfort and support.

How did his parents take it? Did they seem comforted? Because, really, in that situation, that's the most important thing. However, from a Mormon doctrine perspective, isn't what he said wrong? I know they have funerals for stillborn children, but I was under the impression that only babies who took a breath (i.e. were alive however briefly) were "done with their time on earth." I thought for the ones that were stillborn, the spirit waited for another body. Maybe I'm wrong. Regardless, I'm so sorry for your family's loss. Losing a child is always sad, no matter what the circumstances.

In dealing with grief managment, public speaking and showing/haveing empathy.

I am guessing that the Bishop was invited by the family to speak. If that is the case, then he did what a Mormon Bishop does, and it should not be a surprise to anyone.

You are understandingly very hurt over the loss of this child, the pain of loss, which may lessen with time, will never go away.

Put the Bishop's words away... as his intent, I am sure, was to comfort, not add to the family's pain.

I, like most people, see no "rejoicing" to be had over a little life that never had a chance. One of religion's responsibilities is to comfort in times of grief...that does not work if the religious beliefs of the one doing the comforting are in conflict with the mourners.

Anger is a natural occurance when losing a loved one. It is a natural part of the grieving process. Own your anger and then it will no longer own you.

I do not find any comfort in Mormonism, as it is a lie. Death comes to each that lives. It is the destination of all physical life to die. There is no fairness in life, and there is no fairness in the death of a child. Accept what you can not control and do the best with what you can.

There really are no comforting words to be said at such a death. I am truly sorry for your loss and the pain that you have been feeling and will feel.

Rick Santorum's 3 year old daughter Bella has trisomy 18. I am so sorry for your loss.

I was a late 20's TBM at the time, in the mid-West. My bishop was a transplant from Utard. He was notorious for saying stupid incosiderate weird-ass things during his talks. For that reason, I refused to let him come to our grave side service. He was infuriated, and I suppose he was embarrassed. He kept prodding to come and conduct the service, and I kept saying, "oh no, that's okay, this is a private family" event. Some Mormons are at their worst during any funeral. When I lost my dad, a Bishop in another ward approached me in the hall. I was mid-20's. He said, "You know, I appreciated your comments during your eulogy of your father. I hope you meant what you said about having faith...because as you may remember during your late teens you had difficulty with morality and it can come back to haunt you if you're not careful, Satan will be after you." I said, "my dad just died???" I wanted to punch him too.

Yeah, so what if he meant well. That's worth next to nothing in my opinion compared to the needs of the bereaved.

This guy was given a calling for which there is no training or real guide as to how to act in these situations. Having been in these situations, I know I've tried to offer comfort to the immediate family as best as I could. Whether it was right or not - depends on the perception of the listener. You have to say what is in your heart, do the best you can, and hope it is of comfort.

I also remember being taught the doctrine of a baby or child who dies goes straight to the celestial kingdom. The stuff in an earlier post about whether or not he (or she) drew a breath made a differece? In my 50 years as a TBM, I'd never heard that, and my guess is that this bishop hadn't either. Again, I'm sure he was trying to be comforting.

He was doing the best he could, I'm sure.

It kind of reminds me of the situation a couple of years ago. We had a major mine explosion here, 29 were killed, including four miners I knew. The immediate familes of these miners acted with dignity and reserve in the face of intense media coverage, while the relatives (aunts, uncles, 9th cousins twice removed, etc) made complete asses of themselves to the news media.

Just my 2 cents worth...

My daughter's first & only baby lived just a few minutes after birth.
She & her husband were intensely invested emotionally in that baby. Miscarriages prior & after, they've gone through & are still going through an expensive medical process to try to conceive again.

She's a very strong believer in the church, and pretty much the only thing that kept her together during the funeral & aftermath was the idea that she'd been selected to enable the physical body for a spirit, and one deemed so perfect that a continued mortal life was not necessary.

She is an otherwise bright 33-year-old, but one who filters much of life through her emotions, and on the surface (which is all she looks at) Mormonism makes her feel good.
She knows my dislike of the corporation, we generally have an Equal Time agreement (you start talking about the corp & I get equal time to talk about it) that maintains an otherwise great relationship by eliminating me having to listen to her corp stories. She does not want to hear my comments once she starts in on anything about her activities, so the subject no longer gets mentioned, for the most part.

Whether I believe or not, the usual "In a better place" party line given out by the bishop CAN be a great comfort to the bereaved.
In the Mormon context, I don't see a huge problem with it.

People, and cultures, handle the loss of loved ones differently, and if you think the typical "lack of mourning" at Mormon funerals described in this thread is unacceptable, you'd undoubtedly be horrified when attending a good old Irish wake.

I've been to several Mormon funerals, and when one's done RIGHT, without it being turned into a total Missionary Presentation, I much prefer it to the Catholic one I attended a while back, where emphasis on pomp & ceremony left the deceased totally unknown. I knew no more about the lady at the end than I did at the beginning.

The recalling of the deceased's life, character, achievements, personality, and amusing remember-when stories ARE helpful in mitigating the loss (adult, of course, not an infant) for those left behind.

And, in the case of my mother last November, there was little mourning. She'd been declining mentally for several years, was physically handicapped, addicted to painkillers, spent the last year of her life in a nursing home, had no real quality of life, and she VERY much wanted to die. Frankly, heartless as it may sound, there was more relief for many of us than mourning. Even if there is no afterlife, she's still in a better place, by my reckoning.

Making blanket pronouncements against Mormon funerals (aside from the afore-mentioned Missionary Opportunity, which I dislike whole-heartedly), lack of Mormon mourning, and bishops' invoking the "Take comfort in knowing he or she has gone on to a better place in the Lord's Great Plan Of Salvation" bit doesn't allow for the wide range of experiences that do give comfort and do meet many peoples' needs.

They sit down with the bereaved before that funeral and they listen and discuss how to best handle the service.

A decent professional does not do a mindread and give a canned generic speech which might be hurtful to certain individuals.

The guy was untrained and he acted like a jerk.

Making up excuses for the morg and for him doesn't cut it.

Funerals are for the comfort of those left behind, to acknowledge their grief, but never to deny or attempt to minimize it.

There's a difference between an "excuse" and an explanation, Cheryl.

I dislike the corporation, but it's not quite the same Black & White Everything About It Is Evil & Needs To Be Attacked view that you demonstrate.
I agree with most of your commentary, but on occasion I think it's a little simplistic.

Serena,
I'd agree with the first part of your statement, but not with the last part.

Possibly, for YOU, it may be valid, but I see nothing whatever wrong with trying to minimize grief over the loss of a loved one.
Doing so does not trivialize it or the dead, nor does it deny that grief. It merely helps get those left behind through the grieving process.

People handle such things differently.

+1 Presumably the guy was asked to speak and whoever asked knew he was a bishop. Speaking of an afterlife is what bishops, ministers and priests do at funerals and it comforts many people.I sympathize with the OP who apparently is not a believer, but I think the wishes of the parents are foremost here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2012 04:13AM by bona dea.

Sorry for your loss.
So hard to lose a child.

The officiator will generally talk about the beliefs of the religion of the family.

It's probably one of the most common notions of religions in general that when people die they are in a "better place" and not in pain. That is part of the grieving process for those that place their trust in those beliefs. It's very comforting also that they are safe, and they will see them again.

It seems to be hardwired into human beings to have some kind of belief in those two ideas. It's part of the mourning process.

The idea that a ravaged body in horrible pain can be put to rest and their spirit can go to a place of peace and no pain and be with loved ones is of great comfort. It's so common, sort of that idea shows up in most obits also.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2012 01:56PM by SusieQ#1.

If the bishops was invited to speak by the family, I think what he said should have been expected. If the family does not believe in an after life and didn't want to hear religious sentiments, they shouldn't have invited him. Obviously the OP didn't care for the remarks but presumably the parents planned the funeral. If so and if they were okay with it, I don't see any problem. Those kinds of sentiments are of comfort to some and you can't please everyone. There really isn't anything good to say concerning the death of a child.The parents have a right to have the kind of funeral they wish and to have the bishop speak. If the bishop horned in without permission or if he knew t he family didn't believe he probably should have handled things differently. I guess my question is why was the bishop invited to speak if you didn't want to hear about an afterlife?That is what clergy talk about.I think if the parents were believers and were okay with it that is the most important thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2012 04:17AM by bona dea.

If you follow Mormon logic then someone who goes around murdering children under the age of 8 is doing them a great service.

I think this guy said what many need to hear.


http://bigworldsmallboat.blogspot.co.uk/2006/06/finding-right-words-of-comfort.html

It's not just because I'm not a believer in deities.

I think the most comforting thing you can say to someone in grief is "I'm sorry you're going through this. Please let me know if I can help in any way. I'm here for you."

And "God understands. He had a son who died too." is crapola. According to Christian mythos -- he WAS his son.

I agree. Although I was super TBM when my brother died, nothing made me more upset when somebody said, crap like it was God's will, or he was in a better place. What made me feel better was when somebody simply said I am so sorry. That ment more to me then anything else. Nobody understood how I felt, or what I was going through. However that kind gesture simply saying I am sorry for your loss made me feel a tiny bit better in my grief.

He is brainwashed and does not apply filters, common sense, or critical thinking to what he says. He just says what he's heard said by others and what sounds spiritual.

I regret my own ill-conceived attempts to convert my neighbor to Mormonism immediately after her son rode his tricycle into the swimming pool. I said brightly, in effect, "Join now so you'll be guaranteed to be with him in Heaven."

She answered with dignity, being Catholic, "Heaven would never be completely happy without my baby. I already know I will see him again." Fortunately at that point I shut my yap.

Sometimes it's hard to separate the perpetrators from the victims. Have compassion--always a good rule.

Anagrammy

I think it is something we should all take some time to ponder. When someone in hurting, grieving, dealing with "stuff"...it is so natural to want to say something to help them get through their pain a little faster (that makes us feel better and aleviates our own discomfort). But platitudes are seldom helpful and can truly be hurtful. What they need is someone to simply understand their pain. To walk with them through it for as long as it might take and love them unconditionally.

I agree that bishops have no formal training....no counseling experience that enables them to know how to deal with a grieving family. Just one more example of why they are so bad at so many things. Anything they say is just their own thoughts. And it may not be anyone else's. I think other words could have been said to help the family at this time of sorrow.

We say things like that because we don't know what else to say to be of comfort.

However, I think from a psychological point of view, it isn't healthy and it amounts to a kind of denial which causes us to live in a twilight zone rather than come to the acceptance of a death.

At the funeral of an acquaintance, the bishop said, "Mrs. xyz, Mr. xyz (who committed suicide) is up there waiting for you". Well, Mrs. xyz died less than a year later.

When loved ones die, we need to mourn their passing, acknowledge the value and importance of their lives as respectfully and lovingly as we can, and then move on. Life belongs to the living.

About drawing breath - that is not a part of Mormon doctrine as far as I know. BY taught that quickening - when the mother feels the baby move - was when the spirit entered:
http://www.lightplanet.com/family/children/spirit_womb.html

Apparently the flipside of this was that BY hurt some women who had inquired whether they would be reunited with miscarried babies which had died before the mother felt the quickening.

The whole concept of course is nonsense. There is no basis for movement felt by the mother to be equated with "spirit".

BY was clearly not very inspired - we know now that there is a lot of movement in the womb, and whether the mother feels it can depend on things like the placement of the placenta.

I had a scan at 12weeks - the fetus (my future son) was bouncing up and down like a madman on a trampoline. I was amazed at the activity going on in there, and I couldn't feel a thing.