I previously posted problems I have with my daughter, who is raising two children. Through the years she has been disrespectful, cruel, etc, etc, and I have forgiven her figuring it's my fault she's screwed up because of the childhood Mormonism, etc.

This is the one who is still nursing children ages almost 3 and almost 5 years old, which bothers me so much I can feel blood creeping up my neck as I type this. Yeah, definitely not how I raised my children to be independent and reading by three, not still at the breast at five. NEVERTHELESS, I have been there for her--I'm the one she calls at 6:00am, or when she cut herself, or when she's about to lose her mind.

Sooo...I got a call the other day from my son ranting about his other sister's recovery from addiction. He said he overheard this first daughter telling his wife this n that business about the one who's in recovery. He himself is in recovery and has ASKED to be spared family drama whenever possible. I soothed his concerns, assured him I was aware of what was going on, thanked him for his caring, blah, blah. Then I emailed my daughter this email:

Hi Sweetie,

I guess you forgot you invited me to go with you to Santa Cruz today. That's all right-- your sister told me you weren't going.

(My son) called me and was upset. He overheard you telling (his wife) that (the sister) never came home from her visit last week.

My son has asked not to be exposed to family drama during his recovery. They even avoided family occasions to keep things peaceful as possible (with raising 2 kids) for his success. There is nothing more important for their family than a successful recovery. If we were praying people, I would say, it's what I have been praying for.

Please, please, stop talking about your sister's recovery with his wife. It is a hot button with him and especially with Whitney Houston's funeral yesterday, family members who are using drugs creates a cauldron of emotions for someone with a dead brother and his own recovery from alcohol going on.

I am not tell you what to do-- you are a grown woman and can say whatever you want. I am pleading with you to consider adopting just this one filter. If you love your brother and care about supporting HIS recovery, let your sister tell her own news. It puts the choice back on him when you do that--giving your brother the choice to pick up his phone and call her if he wants to share her troubled life.

I am always at the end of the phone if you want to talk about my request.

Much love

Mom

***

I had no calls or emails for three days, so I contacted her and invited her over. She said she didn't want to see me because she was so angry that I sent her a hurtful email. I was truly surprised and said that I thought she must have agreed with me and that's why I haven't heard from her. She then got even more angry and asked why I would assume such a thing. "You don't get to say hurtful things and pretend nothing happened. Why can't you just say you're sorry and that you were angry?" I replied (this is all texting) I said that I thought my response was measured. She then called the other daughter and texted me back "You were too angry--don't deny it." So I said, "OK, I was angry, but I still think my email was appropriate." She then went into orbit saying I was manipulative to "get what I want."

I was stunned by this response and think that she must be venting on some other situation, but now she doesn't want to see me because I am so hurtful.

Am I blind here? Is there something between the lines that I'm communicating that I'm not aware of? I don't care about being right-- I told her we should talk in person but she seems to be afraid to do that because she felt hurt the last time she visited me. (I asked her why and her version of what took place made me gasp. When I tell her 'that's not what I meant at all' she takes that as my attempt to pretend nothing happened).


Anagrammy

Where's Anagrammy when you need her? Oh, yeah, she's the one with the question.

You know, I read it twice because it struck a chord. This is what hit my gut.

By the time I was twelve or thirteen I could not stand my parents asking me to do something. No matter how nicely put. I really resented direction from anybody. That didn't really go away.

I don't know if that would be considered some kind of personality flaw, but it was real for me. The importance of the request, the validity of it, the caring attached--didn't matter. I can't explain it, but that was there for me.

When I read what you wrote, it took me there again. And, I think there is nothing wrong with what you wrote.

If it were me, I would make a call next time, present your worry, but just ask her what she thinks. I don't know what would come of that, but I know I would have preferred it that way.

I think many need to be included in the solution instead of being asked to do something.

That's all I got.

Thank you all for your insight. I am mulling all this over. So much of what you said makes sense. I try hard to understand the paradigm that my loved ones experience and it is really hard.

My daughter's meanness and negative characterizations of our conversations is very puzzling. I suspect I may not have all the facts involved. It very may well be that what I predicted has come to pass and she is having a very hard time coping with that.

I told her she would regret deviating so widely from society in raising her children. I warned her about not having borders on her own sexuality. I've posted before about this, which since I am Relief-Society-prim, is very upsetting to me. The public nursing, the nudity (hers and the children), showing her little boy her lady parts. Recently a family member told me that my grandson (almost 5) is masturbating while nursing...and while doing almost everything else as well. She was concerned that he would be messed up sexually because he demands the breast and punches her when he doesn't get it.

That member did not know I have witnessed him trying to stab her with objects when she said no, and once even poked her in the eye. The result? She cried and cried but no punishment for him.

Anyway-- I suspect that her increasing hostility may be due to the fact that she is realizing I was right. Based on what you (wonderful) posters have said, just being Mom is bad enough, but being Mom AND being right about her parenting might just be too much for her insecurity. She is a wonderful, loving mother, but the unwillingness to say no and mean it has ruined the home environment.

So I think she is basically saying, "OK, so you're right, but you're not perfect, you know...you're this and that and I'm going to show you I'm still powerful by not coming to dinner and calling you out on how awful you are!!!"

I am sincerely bewildered by her hostility--do you think I'm on the right track? I can nail it for other people sometimes but you know it's never that easy for your own problems.

Thanks for taking the time to read all this and your kind words are so appreciated.


Anagrammy

PS. I went through hell over Whitney's funeral, reliving the nightmare. To all of you who have lost loved ones, I send love to you-- I know it brings back memories of pain so deep you feel very, very alone--but you are not because many of us are with you in your silent grief. Namaste.

All I can say to that is just WOW. That really adds to it all like little I've never seen.

I do think you are on the right track. There's clearly things at play which you have no control over, and no matter how you say things, it may not help. Your daughter needs help but seems to be rejecting it from you. That's a heartbreaker.

I watched my parents struggles with two of my brothers, alcoholism and drugs. They never let up doing what ever they could, saying whatever they thought would help (often taken in a grating way).

It took both of them about 15 years to get out of it and they both ended up very grateful to my parents. Later, they all realize the love was there all along.

Your daughter is baffling. I got nothing. But, there is clearly something at play, like a drug, that means you must always keep that in mind to minimize the hurt you feel.

I think its possible she knows what she is doing is not right and destructive and can't stop herself because she is getting some sort of power from it to overcome whatever low self esteem issues she may have.

My brother (the G.A.) oldest daughter reminds me of yours on some level. She became extremely anorexic, but beyond that, there was no reason to anything she did--none. It was never in hers or anybody else's self interest.

She would never allow anyone to see what she ate. Clearly she wanted us to all think she didn't eat at all. She would sit at the table with the family and go on and on about how unhealthy we were all eating, while looking like death warmed over herself.

Everyone was so worried about her until someone saw her at the airport, when she thought no one was looking, go buy a snack and duck down behind some chairs and eat them.

For me she was clearly using her anorexia as power. That was her only power base. I think when people feel they have no power, they use almost anything to get it.

Most of the problems I have with my many employees come from lack of a healthy power base. I try to help them find a healthy source of power, rather than an unhealthy one, such as anorexia or perhaps what ever your daughters power base is.

I may still be way off track, but would just like to say something that may spark your own thoughts.

I do want karma to be true, because I have seen so many parents struggle beyond belief, doing and saying anything they think will help, and they deserve, maybe more than anybody, for that to pay off.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2012 10:47AM by blueorchid.

ok I absolutely love you & I love it when you post. You make sense about anything & you can make sense of anything for me. so I appreciate you sight unseen.

first in business so people could understand us, letter writing guides suggest for email to put in only one topic. If one could put only one main idea in, then that one main idea would be directly responded to. so in this case she could be the target of leaving you planning to go somewhere and someone said she wasn't going somewhere.

Possibly with this family maybe it would be directing it to her directly without giving another source- like typing to her, so she can understand it- Hey are we still on for Saturday? Something tells me (without giving your source) the trip may be off or the timing might not be on for you. I would consider going anyhow (if you did want to) but I wanted to check in with you.
so you are on topic with her. and it is for her about her to her from you about you by you. not including someone else in the family or somewhere indirectly.
Then she can be upset about that (trip) or not.

Then the OOTHER main idea, the other topic, it can be addressed direclty specifically too. And you can determine if you wanted it to be in conversation on the phone, (like listening for emotional response and addressing it then) or Skype (like watching facial expressions and body language) or in person-
and then you can decide if you want to talk over a cup of tea alone, or alone in public (at a coffee house) or in front of the kids or NOT etc. if you want to talk about it in person

that might make it easier to get a response or manage it.

Finally, about me, I do feel cared for and able to care for others in my family, and I do expect basic health information (your brother's dead, he's in jail, he's in hospital - he has a job, his wife's unborn baby is getting testing for a serious problem etc.) and that is reasonable.
However however, I fend myself off from being not able to talk about life- flowers- trees- food- shared events- something anything - with the parent that continually spoke only of their favorite son's problems she wouldn't couldn't solve and dad & her enabled so fiercely, and later, when she no longer wanted to & dad enabled. It was a terrificly terrible triangle filled with love but painful. Sad sad

I think for you it may be a catch 22, where You can't win- in these statements- protecting the one in rehab- when the one who wants to relate with you does not want to hear about her sick brother (again) or experience you protecting him (rather than whatever with her directly.) And were you to tell everyone not to talk to her, or to tell the rehab son not to talk to her- it would get back to her and she would feel terribly (justifiably.)
(if winning is everyone being happy with you and no one blaming or being hurt b y you. ) O( I guess when we talk for someone or through someone for soemone else it makes it easier for them or everyone to blame us, instead of taking the onus or responsibilty of their situation, their setting in life, their feelings or their stuff- themself.

fortunately the one that went through rehab was taught to make choices. And the one that went through rehab was taught assertion skills. And they sat in circles hearing far harsher call outs of b s than may even possibly happen in their family of origin- people that didn't know or love them or have any commitment to them criticiszed or complained about them or what they said at some point. So the one that went through rehab- CAN take setting a boundary themself. They CAN take choosing who to relate to or with. And they CAN make the strenth to relate to- and not relate through- another adult. Unless they're retarded, not just went through rehab, which is another thing- in which case I totally can get you feeling they need to be prepared for, socially prepped, everyone careful around and that you need to speak about them and for them on their behalf or for their sake of course to others in the family.

I always now see that everyone is maybe equally fragile just one went to rehab and the other (s) have a job or look tough or survived some way, but everybody hurts. in a family. just one person went to rehab or life fell apart on x medicine or drugs- everyone hurts some of the time. Its like exasperating that everyone doesn't thrive or someone isn't there you can depend on - just I learned & you know everyone hurts. its not just one. Its two. or two times ten. or however many are in the family. and everyone hurts sometimes. at least the one that went to rehab had to face an issue or two and went into the dark night to face or find themself- what about? what about everybody else?

as you know everything at some stage is black and white and trying trying trying to do everything right, glomming onto something (anything) DIFFERENT than X (the one variable the teen/ YA can stand to see or vaguely identify without crashing/cracking as the problem in their family- or an object of their greater fear- to react against.) so if someone was violent once, some man was frightening or someone was hit by a man- EVEN if you distanced them all from him- this daughter could be over reacting or trying life scripting that is super soft or non violent, very over reacting gentle accepting- see- the opposite of whatever part of reality is her X to react against, right? breast feeding or whatever- in her reality- she has to offer, or accept a request- to be very loving and accepting (the opposite of whomever or whatever violent mean ness she saw or heard- recall a narrative is very powerfilled- even if she didn't experience it- expressed a fearful violent not- love.) so in its way even her annoying choices make sense.
Not my choices, I too was different. As were you. I hope I've helped. I only tried to think about it as I typed because I have utterly appreciated you- tremendously.

throw away anypart you disagree with or find unhelpful PLEASE.
oh annagrammy I know you love em all. don't beat yourself up about any any any of it. you're doing your best and you can't solve all of it. maybe any of it.

Perhaps it is because of the history between the two of you? Maybe it is the mother daughter relationship/child parent relationship? Personally, I did not read anything too harsh in your letter to her...I would have jumped for joy of my mother actually had any semblance of a relationship with me on an emotional level...you (Anagrammy) have offered more advice than anyone in my family has ever offered. I have a family member with an addiction issue, but we are not supposed to know or discuss it...so not real sure how the recovery process goes?

Crazy making I am sure...but know you are loved and valued here by many of your adopted children and grandchildren.

PS...How often does a 3 and 5 year old go to the breast?

I've had to try and deal with drug addiction, siblings, parents and all that entails.
I don't know if there is a right answer to this.
I do think that blueorchid may have hit on something.
The fact that you are MOM makes most of what you say to your kids come across like fingernails on a chalkboard.
I can't explain this. It just is.
It seems like nature's most cruel joke.
I've had to learn to not say anything about anything. The exception to the rule is if they ask.
I've just about bit through my tongue.
Something I've realized that has helped me is, I'm the only one doing the suffering. They are doing what they are doing and feeling no pain about it. Their last concern is how it's going to affect me.
I never get into any thing my kids or siblings have going on between themselves. I don't care if they try and throw me into the middle of the ring. I'm not going. And I no longer want hear about it.
That's my take on it for what its worth. I don't really know the answer to anything, I can only tell you my stories.

No advice...just (((hugs))).

Lost a nephew to drugs and my daughter is an addict. Doing well at the moment. But as you know each day is the one we have to work on.

Didn't realize till you posted that whitneys death and her phone being broken and not hearing from her sent me into a dark place.

It never goes away. And you have exerinced the ulitmate loss.
It's too bad your daughter can't live in your shoes for one day, then she would understand what you are trying to say.

But as mothers we would ever wish that on anyone let alone our child even for 5 minutes.

You just have to do what you feel and that will have to be okay.

Mia said so well what I was trying to.

It sparked a memory for me. I don't know if it would be helpful, but I remember the exact moment in my life when my mother spoke to me as an adult for the first time.

In the '52 Plymouth, at exactly half way there on our trip to Ogden. I was 15. My father always spoke to me as the father until the very end. My relationship was much better with my mother than my father most of the time.

I loved the joy in your post when you talked about the genuine moment you had with your daughter the other night. There's a good chance that can snowball. I really hope it does for you.

And I don't care if you're an atheist; right now what's killing you isn't whether there is a god or isn't; it's your trying to do His (or Her) job... Al-Anon will tell you to put the focus back on yourself. You're not doing that.

Sheesh, what do we go back, five years or so? And talk about the "elephant in the living room" situation, this is the first mention you've made of addiction/alcoholism in your family that I've seen. Okay, I'm sometimes not the most perceptive sort around, and I may have missed something, but you've been busy taking care of everyone else (And yes, you're welcome to throw my own advice at me anytime I appear in need of it. There's a reason I know about this stuff). And what happens when a relatively sane sort gets around crazy folks is the sane sort gets crazy, not the other way round.

Okay, here's what I see (amid all the confusion): First, the old codepedent cliché: Expectations = pre-meditated resentment. You'll probably have to tone them down a bit, way down in fact.

Okay, son in recovery has set some boundaries, and as a recovering individual I can see where he's coming from although I can also see it's painful for those around him.

If I were his "treatment sponsor" I might tell him he needs to toughen up a bit, but that would depend if he was six months sober or six years.

It is not your responsibility, however, to set those boundaries for him. Or enforce them...

And the treatment center I worked at had this mantra: "The patient is responsible for his own recovery."

That goes for everyone involved...

Okay, so now it looks to me like the daughter who got her feelings hurt has some issues of her own... She's vulnerable and in a tough situation (Does she have a husband?), but she's also apparently prone being caustic and nasty and hurtful...

My antenna went off big time with her, but then she doesn't appear to be an addict, and her wounds will be out there and raw...

Reminds me of a story about someone in several recovery programs I heard about who called one of her children up and said, "Okay, I realize I'm the one responsible for how toxic things were when you were growing up. Bad news is you're responsible for the solution."

Which leads me to a couple of suggestions: First, per my old sponsor (I nicknamed him "The Gunslinger"), the best way to take care of someone else is to take care of yourself.

Second, since you're the only individual you can change, you'll want to come up with a plan for you. That will involve change and it ain't gonna feel good. I remember listening to a guy I really liked admitting just how much he loved that "hairshirt of guilt" he always put on...

You're gonna feel nekkid for a bit...

Enough now... Okay one more: Spread yourself around... And by that I don't mean spending more of your time "fixing" people... That's what got you into the cesspool... You'll want some activities for you, probably new ones...

Here's a good website, BTW, you can use as a resource as well. But I hope you'll include genuine human contact as well...

http://www.soberrecovery.com

Now give yourself some time. You didn't get the way you got overnight (and neither did those around you).

/Dr. Phil voice off

Oh wow. I'm an idiot. I can't believe it didn't occur to me.

I went to alanon for 4 years plus some tune ups.
My ex husbands addiction sent me there. That is one of the good things that came out of our marriage.
The best thing I ever did for myself.
Puts you on course where you need to be.
If you think RFM helps you, wait til you go to al-anon.

Do not put this off. This is Wednesday (where I live)
The end of the week would not be too soon.

Thanks sl cabbie

P.s. Ala non is probably why I couldn't fit into the mormon church. Too many of them seemed sick to me. I learned to be a truth telling straight shooter. I wasn't popular. When others start insisting I be sick in order to fit in, I get cranky. I's impossible to be a truthful mormon. I tried.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2012 01:53AM by Mia.

My gut response is your adult kids need to stop using you as a switchboard for what they need to say to each other and that you consider retiring from the role. It keeps your adult children in dependent roles. (We really need another term for adults who are our offspring instead of "adult *children*".)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2012 10:33AM by robertb.

+1

You're still being the mother and playing referee. It is no longer your job to manage your adult children's relationships with each other. Its really no longer you business. Have a relationship with each one of them, but dont talk about the other when with one. Try this for a while and you will see what you are doing. After children are no longer children you decide if you want to have an adult relationship with them. My exmormon husband used to disagree with me on this one and I think it was the church idea of being Daddy Forever into Eternity. Bad idea.

I agree with robertb, that your children need to speak to each other and not through you. They are adults and therefore they need to deal with their issues as such. I can see why your daughter could be upset. It seems she was only talking to her sister in law, and your son overheard the conversation, not her fault. Yet you place responsibility of possible failure of your sons rehab on her innocent conversation and not in him. You are censoring her. In other words trying to control her.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2012 10:41AM by exdanite.

Anagrammy,

I love you and have appreciated all the good advice you've given me over the last several months. I do not think you said anything too harsh in your email, but I agree with what everyone else has said...your daughters response is reflecting her own feelings about how she perceives you. Whether she thinks you're always on her case, or always siding with her brother, or whatever, it colors how she sees everything you say and do--regardless of how you intended.

I agree with what everyone else has suggested--al anon meetings and refusing to be the switchboard for your kids...

Hang in there. Hugs to you...

It is a simple peer counseling model that gets me out being hooked on trying to solve someone else's problems:

1. Empathize ("You seem upset." "That must be hard situation." etc.

2. Listen.

3. Ask "What do you think you will do?"

4. Listen

5. Ask "Do you think that will work?"

6. Repeat 3, 4, and 5 as needed and rigorously try not to give advice.

7. Listen

8. Offer to be available to listen. "Let me know how it goes."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2012 10:01PM by robertb.

So much better than defending/explaining, which was clearly gasoline on coals.

My first husband was an alcoholic and I divorced him after going to al-anon on my own and gaining the strength. You guys are right--I need a refresher. Right now I have the son in recovery following inpatient rehab and a daughter living with me who sobered up for two years then relapsed, so she's just moved in and is starting a non-religious AA. The oldest son is an alky who doesn't speak to me and the brother just younger than him died of alcohol/drug combination. So yeah, I have addiction issues in my family. I probably could go to Al-Anon for the rest of my life and it would not be a waste of time.

I now see that I needlessly inserted myself into a situation because I felt irritated and uncomfortable. Thinking more deeply and waiting to see what my subconscious thinks, I woke up this morning with clarity about what is happening inside me.

Often I tell people strong feelings are always personal. I suspect I am angry with her in general because I am judging her child raising philosophy. My request for her to stop sharing drama with her brother's family was just me expressing irritation with her because I disapprove of so much of what she is doing raising her children. Tiptoes--these two demand the breast all day long. Every time they are not actively distracted. They pull at her clothes, they scream, wail, beat on her--it's unbelievable. She has tried to quit but feels they "need to be more attached because there is tension in the home." Her husband calls it "Dante's Inferno." He takes meds for anxiety disorder.

It really is too much for me, who raised them with daily bathing, vegetables, modesty in the home and consideration for others in public. I am sure I am radiating disapproval. I need to gently back off and let her see in private what works and doesn't work without bringing into play my disapproval/approval.

And I am definitely getting back into Al Anon. Thanks for reminding me, Cabbie! Thanks so much, robertb for the steps. I am committing those to memory.

Peace

Anagrammy

There is a club that few ever join, and no one would willingly.
Losing a child is horrifc. I left my acoholic ex, easy. When my daughter(ex. bio child) was on deaths door, and especially after watching my SIL bury her son, I wore myself out for 3 months taking care of her.

I understood enabling so I didn't. But I had to try.
She is doing well, for today.

The addict has a one point of view, the spouse or partner another. But a momma who has lost a child and is watching another struggle would have waht I had heard called "a front row seat to hell".

Ana in my opinion needs to do whatever allows her to close her eyes at night and find some peaceful minutes in the day.
And it will then be the right thing for her.
Even siblings of addicts alive or not don't understand. How could they.

Anagrammy, I also find your posts very well thought out and full of good advise. The only thing I have to suggest is this: I believe there are subjects that are way too personal and sensitive to address with others through texting, e-mail, or mail! I have seen it time after time, when a text was sent but the meaning and intention was completely lost to the recipient.
Although we tend to think it is a personal way to communicate,texting can be very impersonal and often misleading because of misconstrued inflections of a phrase! Where you were trying to sympatheticaly plea for a solution to a problem, it was received textually as a condescending rebuke which caused her to be offended. Not at all what you intended or even thought could be the case. I would suggest to let things calm down a bit and try in person or at least over the phone to convey your love for her and your regrets of the hurt feelings caused by the text. And emphasize that was not the intent! Just my 2 cents!

Part of this whole argument on the phone was my not liking email or texting for discussing things which are important. I talked about how important it is to see a tear slide down a cheek, to see a facial expression, to be able to give a wordless hug.

You can't do that on the phone, by text, or by email.

My daughter totally agreed and then said she was "afraid" to be with me in person because my personality is strong. She feels intimidated and fearful.

I scoffed at first, saying that maybe we should talk about her insecurity...then upon achieving some clarity this morning upon waking up, I realized that I should just accept her choice of communication and not force her to speak with me on the phone or in person. I could see that my verbal talents and ability to articulate could make her feel like a child again, make her feel little and inadequate to the task of effectively communicating.

So I texted her this: "I woke this morning with clarity. I inserted myself into something that was none of my business. I am sorry!"

She texted back: "THANK YOU! That is so wonderful to hear. I love clarity!"

Sometimes less may be more.


Anagrammy

Good hearts are often overshadowed by strong personalities!
But it sounds like you and your daughter are working things out! Family dynamics can be so complicated at times that it requires us to step back and ask Am I off? or What am I missing here? And then if we are willing to listen to what we dont want to hear we can gain greater insight in understanding the perception of others! And that takes a lifetime to improve in that particular skill! Best wishes,my friend, with the many challenges in your family dynamics! I get the impression, you are up to whatever challenge comes your way in that regard!

Beautiful. You guys are gonna make it!

OK you asked for it straight.

The wording of your email was appropriate.

However, an adult getting in the middle of two other adults business was inappropriate and could be considered insulting. Even if you are their mom, maybe especially if you are their mom, mind your own business applies.

1) If such a request was to be made it should have been done by your son, not you. Perhaps the welfare of your son was more important, but getting in the middle of two adult's business is out of line - especially where you just took it upon yourself to do so.

2) If you were to make such a request it would be better done in person than written. Two problems with writing something like this is that you don't have body language to convey your meaning and if they start misunderstanding your intent than you intended you can't correct and explain as you can in a phone conversation - you just go on and on being offensive without even realizing it.

3) There was a whole lot of besides the point background telling us what a loser your daughter besides explaining why you are offended that she is offended. Your daughter knows you well enough to possibly have detected some of that coming through in the letter.

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

Anagrammy- I love your posts b/c they are so thoughtful and you don't post off-the-cuff. You've gotten a lot of good advice here and I agree that Al-Anon is a really good idea for you.

I think your email was very calm, clear and reasonable. You can't control your daughter's reactions. I do think your son & DIL need to speak to DD#1 directly and firmly tell her they do NOT want to hear X,Y or Z. They need to set boundaries that will help your son's recovery. If DD#1 brings up and off-limits topic, THEY need to call her on it immediately and hang up the phone if necessary.

My impression of DD#1 is that she has some growing up to do. She strikes me as immature and she is probably reaping the consequences of her lax parenting style. I suspect things will change once the oldest boy goes to school. He won't have boob access all day. Maybe he'll change once he's in a structured environment, maybe not. If not, his school may recommend an evaluation by a therapist which could bring changes to DD's parenting style.

On another thread re this crisis with my daughter, I woke up this morning with complete clarity--so clear I felt like I should facepalm myself. Duh.

I gritted my teeth and texted my daughter (because I abhor texting for communication of feelings). I told her I had slept on it, had clarity and that I was completely out of bounds by inserting myself in something that was none of my business.

She texted back "THANK YOU. It was so nice to hear that. I love clarity!" Later, she texted me that she was standing in a eucalyptus forest with butterflies all around and it was such a spiritual moment.

I thanked her for sharing that with me and I sense things are healed...and I have learned yet another lesson in my sometimes torturous life journey.

I'm so glad I posted-- hugs to every one of you! RfM feels like home to me-- :)

Anagrammy

Ana, you deserve peace like everyone else. You continue to help people on here and others at home. You are a very giving person that is full of love-I can tell and when I left for months(didn't read exmormon.org), your posts stayed with me.

Your outlook on life drove me in a way to be a better person. Growing up Mormon, it clouded my mind and gave me a lot of resentment. I want to and have moved passed a lot of it.

Addicts have to save themselves. Your family seems to have a lot of dynamics like you can do this but don't talk about that. It seems that there may be some huge elephants in the room and pain that hasn't been dealt with. Mine has some as well. I wouldn't try and mediate being the mom, you aren't the 'mom' anymore, they are adults, you don't need that stress in your life. If they come to you, then help them with your rich knowledge on life and understanding.

I wouldn't write emails because my aunt and uncle communicate through them and I didn't, don't like it. It creates more of a barrier between the two. She is probably really sad because she feels like she is failing as a mom. I think you guys need some time apart for soul searching. Your son needs to toughen up if he wants to make it. He is putting other's so called problems in his way of recovery. He is hiding.

There's a lot of good advice that I enjoyed reading and enlightened me. You deserve peace and have years left for you to enjoy.