I don't really trust doctors - especially male OB/GYN doctors, and especially doctors here in Utah county. I had a bad experience with the birth of my first child, where the hospital staff didn't explain anything to me, did whatever they wanted without asking me or even telling me what they were doing, and warned me that it would be dangerous for the baby any time I tried to protest. This was a perfectly normal birth with no complications.
I see a lot of similarities between medical authority and priesthood authority, at least in Utah county. Medical practitioners expect you to trust them because they have the title "Doctor". They don't think they need to provide explanations and they don't recognize that patients are required to give informed consent. It's a very male-dominated field, which is a little disturbing to me when it comes to OB/GYN. Why would a male doctor choose to specialize in that field in the first place, and how can he possibly know as much about it as a female doctor?
My dilemma now is that I have the choice of a female doctor (at least I get a female!) at the VA hospital in Salt Lake City, free of charge (veterans benefit), or I can pay out of pocket to have a baby at a local birth center. The kicker is, since I don't have medical insurance, at a birth center I would also have to pay out of pocket for any complications, possibly tens of thousands of dollars. The VA would cover those costs as well, so the logical choice is to take the free medical coverage. On the other hand, I'll be fighting the hospital policies every step of the way. I'm choosing to have a natural birth (they messed up the epidural last time, temporarily paralyzing one leg, and I'm not taking that chance again), I refuse to have an IV, I refuse to be confined to a bed, etc. What I went through while giving birth the first time was more traumatic than anything I've experienced in the military or from the Mormon church. I was completely vulnerable, physically and emotionally, and they took advantage of that. This time, I'll be fighting the hospital and the doctor every step of the way.
Does anyone else see a parallel between medical and religious institutions? Both try to claim they really care about your well-being, but in the end it's all about the money. Both demand unquestioning respect for authority. Both deal with very personal, private aspects of people's lives. Both are more likely to be influenced by legal concerns than by scientific evidence. Both have institutional inertia, where they tend to do things just because that's the way it's always been done. There are good doctors and bad doctors, just like there are good bishops and bad bishops - the point is, no matter how good one individual doctor or bishop might be, in the end they have to fall in line with the organization. They have to follow the Church handbook or the hospital procedures. It's not about the individual situation, it's all about the organization - the standardized, impersonal policies. And people are expected to subject their very personal lives to these standard procedures.
Does anyone else feel like leaving Mormonism makes you more likely to question medical authority?

I type medical records so I "know too much" and mormon doctors especially don't like me to question their diagnoses. My prior doctor was an absolute as* in every possible way. My new doctor is an exmo.

I was "lucky" in that I did have a very good OB/GYN when I had my twins 26 years ago. He was mormon, but a very nice guy.

For some reason I was thinking I would get at least one opinion saying that doctors are so much smarter than everyone else and I should just trust them because they've been to medical school. Pointless argument avoided, I guess.

type medical records long enough and you find out they are just GUESSING for the most part. I don't trust doctors and most of the women I work with don't either. We are also very hesitant to go in to the doctor for anything. I walked around on a broken foot for 4 days.

There is no magic pill and there is no doctor who is a "god" who knows it all. There are some really good doctors out there, but I don't have a lot of faith in the medical community.

Watch House--it is a guessing game. Sometimes they find the answer, many times they don't.

Oh--and basically, you are just a number. The medical people are worked to death, especially the nurses, and some develop an attitude.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2012 10:30AM by cl2.

I stay away from doctors completely. They are motivated by two things- avoiding being sued, and making lots of money. Both of these motivations result in you being over-treated, often with unfortunate results.

Lots of different doctors I assume. You're making lots of generalizations I don't particularly agree with. Should we also state that veterinarians cannot possibly be good because they aren't dogs, but that female veterinarians must be much better with female dogs, and male veterinarians must be much better with male dogs. Dentists can't possibly be good with teeth, because they aren't 'teeth'. etc. Everyone is only in it for the money. Heck of a lot of bias here.

People are people. Doctors are people. There are good doctors, bad doctors, and everything in between. There are some that try really hard, some that don't, some that know a lot, some that are good with people, some that aren't etc. etc. etc. - they ARE PEOPLE (and no, I am not a doctor). To generalize about doctors is BULLSHIT just like generalizing about just about anything else in life. Find a good one you can talk to and that takes your concerns into account and work with them. If you can't and you want to fight with them, then enjoy that, I guess. Bad experiences in the past are hard to get past, and I totally understand that (been there, difficult nursing staff in hospitals etc) but move on until you get where you want to be. The entire system is NOT THERE to "SCREW" you. They aren't. They get too much crap on a daily basis from sick, unhappy, unappreciative, etc. patients to make it worth it. Fundamentally a lot of health care workers have to be there because they want to help (and that doesn't mean ALL of them).

And yes, the entire healthcare system in the US is a muss, but individual doctors didn't create that either - that is a 100 years of tangle. Another story entirely.

"There are good doctors and bad doctors, just like there are good bishops and bad bishops - the point is, no matter how good one individual doctor or bishop might be, in the end they have to fall in line with the organization. They have to follow the Church handbook or the hospital procedures. It's not about the individual situation, it's all about the organization - the standardized, impersonal policies. And people are expected to subject their very personal lives to these standard procedures."

I would like to add that, in both cases, they have not learned one very very important lesson: until they begin learning to rat out and drum out the bad ones, the bottom half will always be a net drag on their respective professions. It is the same with any organization of this sort - law-enforcement, politicians, whatever. If they want the respect and trust of the population at large they must police themselves with more rigor.

The point I'm trying to get at is this question: Is it really about the individual bishops/doctors/whatever, or does it really come down to the policies of the organization itself?

Generalization isn't always a good idea, and comparing doctors (at least they had to go through rigorous schooling and keep up with recent studies via continuing medical education credits in order to keep their license) with no-qualification except for male gender, good financial status, and church-obedient bishops is hardly fair in my book.

Another factor you should consider is unrealistic expectations. House is an entertaining show, but it is about as reflective of the real doctors and hospital as CSI (where lab rats went about doing police jobs wielding gun without headgear on as SWAT follows them in a raid... helmet on and all 'cause they aren't the stars of the show). A lot of time doctors don't explain enough because they're in the process of finding out what's going on with the patient themselves.

Full disclosure: I'm the lab... and it exasperates me when people call the lab every few hours expecting test results that take days to run (like bacterial culture & sensitivity test, etc)... because the CSI shows get test results back just like that. :oP I don't think all lawyers are blood-sucking unethical leeches or that accountants are crooked cheaters or that people only become soldiers only because they can't fit into real jobs... and I don't think they are all saints either.

As others say, people are people just like you. If you have problems with one or two people, there is no need to lump the others in whose only fault is in sharing their profession. There is accountability in medicine (malpractice investigation, etc) that doesn't exist in Mormon lay clergy.

LOL! Hell no! But then I was pretty mouthy to my bishop when I was a cult-member, so maybe he felt policed enough by me! :-)

wwfsmd Wrote:
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> +1 -- I agree, it's my experience also.

my wifes obgyn scheduled his births, I am sure it was around his tee times we were young, never again

There are so many regulations that really prevent a woman from having a truly natural birth unless you want to do it at home with a mid wife. If your water is broken (at the hospital) you can't walk around, you can't get in the tub and some hospitals will not let you walk around your own room. It has to do with a couple of things. This is your bodily fluid and you are then having it contaminate everywhere you walk. They also need to monitor your baby and that is done by hooking a tiny monitor lead onto the babies head. I think that all of this is done to protect themselves from lawsuits. Far too many people have sued hospitals and doctors for acts of nature and have driven up the malpractice insurance to stagering rates. My husband is now out of the medical field and never wants to go back. I have had my babies in different states. All have been totally different experiences. I can tell you that the female doctor was about 20x worse than my male doctors. She was rough and callous and had a poor attitude, like just suck it up, I don't care if you are in pain type attitude. I have had 3 epidurals so far and will get a 4th with this one. The first two did not work at all. The 3rd was perfect and the secret to it is to lay on your back so the medication doesn't end up just in your legs. I layed almost all the way back and that was the best delivery ever. I was laughing and joking with the nurses. I was not so tired after labor like the other two. I bonded with my baby much faster and has an easier recovery. I also did not take longer to birth like the naturalist led me to believe. It was 5 1/2 hours just like my previous painfull delivery. My baby was alert and awake. I didn't feel like a failure because I chose to have the epidural. I come from the dental field and my attitude is that you would not have a filling without lidocaine, why would you want to put yourself through a birth without pain intervention? As for Mormonism and doctor authority.....I just do not see the comparison. I think what you have experienced happens all over the place, not just in Mormonland. Sorry.

Something I learned after going through the medical system with cancer.

If you have someone who will take the time, and cares about you, sign them up to help you. They need to be there, and know all of the ins and outs of what you are going to be dealing with. Everything from the surgery schedule, to being there the minute you wake up.

When You aren't feeling well, or are so out of it, you need someone there who knows the ins and outs of your situation and can speak up for you when you can't speak for your self.

I'll never go through surgery again without someone there to stand up for me when I can't stand up for myself. On my way into surgery, and the minute I come out. I was semi anesthitized and could not speak for myself. It led to some (big) problems that could have been avoided If I would have someone who knew the ropes and was there to go to bat for me.

I don't know how it is in Utah.

But in California the Patient's Rights must be cearly posted.

You have the right to refuse any treatment.

my doctor is awesome...we talk about my whole wellness and he is proactive with me and i have Type 2 diabetes and i am without INS....yikes!! so he works with me on a very fair basis...$50 for a visit! :) he really listens and does not act omnipotent at all!! i guess he is a keeper!! i also can walk there so that is a plus to!! sorry about your experiences!! good luck with your new birthing experience and your family!! :)

i am glad my doc aint like this:
I stay away from doctors completely. They are motivated by two things- avoiding being sued, and making lots of money. Both of these motivations result in you being over-treated, often with unfortunate results

:) just sayin! is he perfect...nope... is he in it for the $$$ nope!! he even once charged $30 for an office visit!! :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2012 11:30AM by bignevermo.

I have a LDS OB/GYN who I adore. I can ask him anything and he isn't into judgement just taking care of his patients.
My GP is female and I get the sense she is a mormon who quit. She has been great, and the only female doc I have ever had.
She is not as logical as my male docs, but her concern for my well being is amazing.

My derm is LDS, nothing but professional care. My back doc is an athiest. Very pragmatic and science minded. So out of all of them the least emapthetic but understands the human body and chemistry the best.

They all treat differently but I base my choices on results, have fired many docs.

The thing I found out that is the most important thing is for eveyone to have an advocate. Someone who will do the listening and talking when you can't. And to validate your issues. There are plenty of doctors to pick from and you don;t always find the correct one for you first.

I also find it helps to write down what you need to ask. They only have so much time with each patient. And never ever lie to your doctor. Not good for your health. They can't treat you if they don't know what they are dealing with.

I am sure there are good doctors at the VA.

Good thread.

I worked as a pharmacy tech about 3 years and learned a TON. It's not unusual for a pharmacist to know about a certain drug than the doctor who prescribed it. No knock on doctors, there is simply a mountain of information they are expected to stay on top of.

One of the doctors in the clinic would come over to the pharmacy and sit & chat over a coke. One of his favorite jokes: "what's the definition of a wonder drug? It's when the doctors says, "I wonder if this will work?"".

Doctors do make mistakes. Pharmacists catch them on occasion. Not very often, but we did a few times a year.

in Pharmacology... he should know more thaan the MD... and even tmy Pharm needs to look up stuff sometimes!! :)

being a physician is an art; it consists of being a disease detective & treatment scientist. How a doc LISTENS (or not) and evaluates other information is critical.

being a pharm is more science that being a doc.

a doc who thinks it's 100% science is in for trouble, as are his/her patients. the invention of more & more medical devices (MRI, etc.) has made this clear.

When the doc has a financial stake in the MRI usage.... Watch Out!

I'm seeing a lot of comments about how doctors don't really know what they are talking about, and a lot of comments saying that doctors are great and there's nothing wrong with the system. I don't actually see anyone talking about the comparison between priesthood authority and medical authority, or how leaving Mormonism might affect your attitude to medical authority. I guess that's the nature of these boards, people tend to focus on one aspect of a post and not the main point. Oh well, as long as you all are enjoying the conversation :)

The point being people should educate themselves as much as possible.

Don't let someone else take your agency away? Or, don't give away your agency?

In medicine, there is such a thing as "getting a 2nd opinion" and "go to a specialist". Imagine telling you bishop you want a 2nd opinion or you want to hear from someone with a PhD in social work - hah!

Mostly good, though. And when it really counted, with cancer, I had excellent doctors and excellent care. The doc who removed my cancerous bladder and built me a new one out of a section of my intestines is LDS. Wonderful doctor. Course, I'm also his star patient because he was able to write a paper about my cancer and about the surgery he performed.

My oncologist was also fantastic and not a Mormon.

As to OB/GYN: the 2 worst experiences I had were with 1 mormon male ob and one female ob from India. Both were awful. I saw them each once, then went on to find a new doc.

I also s***-canned my middle eastern endocrinologist because he was a complete asshole. He blamed me for his staff's inability to communicate effectively, then invited me to find a new practice. I told him he was an asshole, get me my records.

I think there is also, though, a history of egotism and a glorification of doctors in the past that infects the present. Some docs are old school. Some are so new school and concerned about not giving unwanted advice that they fail to give you any direction at all.

But, yes, medicine is as much art as science. Medicines are designed to treat the fattest part of the bell curve. If you're one of the unfortunates who fall outside of that curve, then it can be extremely difficult to figure out the issues and treat them. So, on the one hand, we don't want egotistic docs telling us what to do, but on the other hand, we get pissed if they can't immediately diagnose our issue and give us a treatment that will work.

It takes both the patient and the doctor working together to make a positive experience. If you don't like your doc, find someone else.

>
> It takes both the patient and the doctor working
> together to make a positive experience. If you
> don't like your doc, find someone else.

So, in a religious context, if I don't like my bishop, should I find someone else?
I'm not sure that finding a new doctor is the only option. I heard the same advice about religion - if you don't believe it, then resign. On the other hand, what if I don't have "faith" in a doctor's inherent authority, but I expect the doctor to accommodate me instead of me finding a new doctor? If I explain to the doctor in advance how I want to be treated if the birth is normal, what interventions should be used in case of emergency, and expect the doctor to follow my plan? I'm pretty sure that the right to refuse treatment gives me that kind of option.

Sorry. I'm multi-tasking today. :)

Yes, with doctors you can vote with your feet. YOu also have a bill of rights that protects you. None of this is true with Mormonism. So in this regard, at least, the two are very different. You have no rights as a Mormon. You're a volunteer and they can do and say whatever they want. The same is not true with doctors. They have a legal responsibility to you as a patient and if they fail in that, they can be sued or even fired.

And yes, the patient's bill of rights guarantees you that the doctors will follow your plan of action and the directives you have given. Especially with birth plans! Why encourage mothers to have a birth plan if there's no intention to follow through with them?

But regardless of all that, good luck to you on your pending delivery! And congratulations, too!

I don't have a lot of choice which doctor I go to, since the VA women's clinic in Salt Lake City only has one doctor. My previous doctor and the hospital stall disregarded my birth plan and didn't even tell me what they was doing, let alone ask for permission. I'm hoping that I can invoke the patient's bill of rights, right to informed consent, and right to refuse treatment. Basically I want to be completely left alone unless something goes wrong. The doctor and hospital won't be happy with that, since they are trained to treat childbirth as a medical condition that requires intervention when it's actually a perfectly natural thing. I really could have sued them last time, but I didn't realize it until later and I wasn't as good at standing up for myself back when I was TBM. I wish my husband would be able to be here as an advocate, but I can't count on him getting here in time. Anyway, thanks for the support.

Boy, do I hear you about learning to stand up for yourself. Fortunately for me, by the time I went through my major health crisis, I was nearly 40 and had had enough bad experiences that I was determined to "do it right".

We walk a fine line, don't we, between trusting our medical professionals and making sure our own needs are looked after.

So your husband is deployed? That sux! I've never been in the V.A. (I live and work nearby), but the new remodel will hopefully make it a lovely experience for you. Do you have anyone who can be there for the delivery and be your advocate or are you trying to mange this completely solo?

My husband is a citizen of Afghanistan - I met him when I was deployed there, he was my interpreter. He might make it here before the baby, it just depends on how long the immigration process takes for him to get here. I really don't want anyone else from my family to be there. I have one friend I'm considering asking to go to the hospital with me as an advocate. She's non-LDS, in a committed lesbian relationship, and shares my perspective on a lot of things, including my medical aversion. :D

Sorry, I blanked for a minute. I remember the firestorm your immigration/ marriage thread created.

I think your friend sounds like an excellent choice for an advocate. I hope she can help you out. She sounds perfect. :)

I persnaly need a doc thats willing to help me out with preventative therapy and is willing to understand when I go to a doc i've been doing everything I can first and i'm very desprate to get what ever it is sorted. I'm afraid of medication now litrealy afraid of it and sergery is one of those things I really hate. Theres no doc that can get me to sit though a needle quietly. I have major trusts issues both because of the church putting me off beng in a room with a man alone and because I lerned early on you put your life in soneones hands they will leave you after it with a perminant dissfigurement and dissability.