I have tried to post this topic several times, only to have it go to some "twilight zone" to be found when doing a search using rowan, and never on the board. I am trying this one last time.

The misogynists’ views of the LDS organization and its members is sickening.

Homosexuals are up in arms over the LDS denying of their human rights, but females have never been treated as human beings, but rather as an inferior sub-species.

Even the females' highest reward as a Goddess (in a harem of Goddesses) in the Celestial Kingdom and an eternal reward of "baby-making" is demeaning and subjective. It is archaic male-worshiping to the nth-degree. Give any pretty name you want to the role (Goddess), and it is still women being nothing more than breeding stock!

If every homosexual got up and walked out of the church, what would happen...next to nothing.

If every woman got up and walked out of the church, what would happen...the whole damn lying organization would fall and crumble into dust.

Women, wake up. We have the power, not the priesthood, not the GAs, not the Prophet.

If women would take back the power that they rightfully own and walk out of every Mormon Church...the whole lying mess would fall instantly.

Can you just imagine the "new revelations" that the Prophet would suddenly have, if all women left the church? First the guilt-heaving, then the accusations of Satan's influence, then if women stood their ground...why the Prophet would have a new a marvelous revelation of women of this last dispensation being worthy to hold the (a) priesthood and become Gods in their own right...or some other such nonsense. The desperation of the leadership would be manifest in no-telling what kind of BS hogwash!

Say what you want, but it is the blind compliance of women that keeps the church in power.

Molly Moo-Cows...that is what TBM women are. Until they can overcome the herd mentality, the LDS Organization will continue. And the non-TBMs women who stay for whatever "good" reason that they have...they are wrong to uphold and support the LDS by walking into the building!

Shake off the mental shackles of female inferiority and be the PERSON you can be.

There is nothing that women can lose that is not more than compensated by what they will gain by destroying the lie of Mormonism. Our rally cry should be, “Lose the Lie”.

Without women, the LDS Organization just becomes "The He-Man Woman-Hater's Club" and doomed to extinction.

(Warning: Modern Adult Translation)



LYSISTRATA

Lampito, and the rest of you, too. All together: Repeat after me: There’s no prick, lover’s or husband’s…



TOGETHER:

There’s no prick, lover’s or husband’s...



LYSISTRATA

That will approach me erect...



TOGETHER:

That will approach me erect...



CALONIKI:(Hesitates)...



LYSISTRATA

Caloniki, speak!



CALONIKI:

Damn it, Lysistrata, my knees are wobbly! That will approach me erect...



LYSISTRATA

Shut in at home, I’ll live prickless and chaste...



TOGETHER:

Shut in at home, I’ll live prickless and chaste...



LYSISTRATA

And I’ll be dressed seductively and be beautifully made...




TOGETHER:

And I’ll be dressed seductively and be beautifully made...



LYSISTRATA

So as to set afire my man’s desire...



TOGETHER:

So as to set afire my man’s desire...



LYSISTRATA

And let him not fuck me with my consent...



TOGETHER:

And let him not fuck me with my consent...



LYSISTRATA

But if the prick forces itself upon me...



TOGETHER:

But if the prick forces itself upon me...



LYSISTRATA

I will not reach orgasm... at the same time as it does...



TOGETHER:

I will not reach orgasm... at the same time as it does...



LYSISTRATA

I will not have my slippers raised to the ceiling...




TOGETHER:

I will not have my slippers raised to the ceiling...



LYSISTRATA

Nor will I, like a whore, take up for him the position of the lioness-on-a-cheese-grater...



TOGETHER:

Nor will I, like a whore, take up for him the position of the lioness-on-a-cheese-grater...



LYSISTRATA

And so, to bind all this together, we hereby drink this wine...



TOGETHER:

And so, to bind all this together, we hereby drink this wine...



LYSISTRATA

And if I break this solemn oath may the wine I drink turn to water...



TOGETHER:

And if I break this solemn oath may the wine I drink turn to water...



LYSISTRATA

Have you all sworn with me?



TOGETHER:

We sure have!



LYSISTRATA

Now bring me the cup that I may sanctify it.



CALONIKI:

Give me some too, so that the oath will bind us all well.

Lioness on a cheese grater?

I don't think that one is in the Urban Dictionary! :>)

This is the hardest thing for me to understand in general, not just in the LDS. Women makeup 1/2 of the worlds population yet except having a lessor voice. Just look at the archaic birth control controversy going on currently in the US. How can a law be passed in this day and age, in this country, that forces a woman to have a transVAGINAL ultrasound before she decides on a possible pregnancy termination in Virginia. This is state sanctioned Rape of a women if you use the FBI's definition of rape. Why women,who often do the bulk of the church's work, stay in the Catholic,LDS, or any of the other churches that deny women as equals is beyond me! Where is the public outcry for this like there is about racism and the priesthood.I know women like the social nature of the church but why won't they rise up and force change in the church, politics, etc... by making their voices heard loud and clear.

Absolutely true.

But it bears worth repeating:

The way patriarchal religions control the women is through FEAR. What's the best way use fear with women? The threat of losing (damnation, hell) for children. As long as women keep buying into this terrifying notion, religion will never lose it's grip on them. I'm paraphrasing here, but a feminist once stated that if every woman got up and walked out of the churches, mosques, synagogues for good, religion would lose its grip on humanity.

Both my Brother and I left Mormondum after our Mission's and Temple Marriages, my Sisters & Mom on the other hand have stayed with it. I can only hope that someday they will wake up and be brave enough to really look at it and stop following the blind.

Women are raised feeling inferior, second best, also ran. In early competition with siblings, little girls observe that they can't run as fast, climb as well, kick the ball as far, etc. They don't "win" contests where boys are involved.

But they do win at checkers, chess, cards, story telling, indoor stuff. So their competitive male siblings minimize those activities. "That's only luck" (cards) "Checkers is a baby game" or "only babies play inside all day."

Mothers of girls smile and say, "Only girls can have babies, you know..." this reinforcing the girl's idea that her worth is in her ability to produce (hopefully) a male. Her own mother showing her how to cook, sew, etc, while her brothers are outside climbing trees is setting her in a supportive role (providing food for the incoming tree climbers).

This is not blaming, this is just observing. Service to the family is exalted for girls this way as mother makes loving comments to her daughters about how terrific their corncakes are and how much the family appreciates the great food we prepare.

Turning a girl's focus to developing her own talents other than serving the talents of others has not been a focus of family life in America. It is through the arts and music that women have traditionally found self-expression and a unique identity. Those were one of the programs cut from the public schools.

Women, like slaves, can't imagine a life for themselves other than what someone who loved them imagined. When I was a young girl brimming with promise, my mother and father never had a conversation with me about my dreams. Never. It was always about developing skills that would enable me to support myself. Namely, typing. That was the only one they felt was dependable for a woman. "You can always get a job as a secretary."

That was it. For women to feel empowered, we must have the antidote for the societal poison that sends these early messages that you are not a "winner," that having a goal of avoiding poverty is enough. Having a joyful, happy, productive life is far more than avoiding poverty and controlling your own reproduction.

The deep underlying attitude of personal worth and self-esteem is something you can give your daughters, but not unless you have it yourself. All my daughters remember the day my first writing was published in the newspaper. I put the pages up on the wall of our duplex there in Logan, Utah, and I wrote "YES. I. CAN." I told them it meant I could have my dreams--and so could they. One word for each page in giant letters.

You wonder what they will remember when they grow up. They remember that-- and the day I painted all the cupboards purple with orange inside. I remember that day too-- I was newly divorced and I was celebrating the fact that my life could be any color I damn well wanted. I no longer had to be beige.

One of their friends asked why their mother painted weird colors and I still remember my daughter's answer, "Because she can."

There is no reason not to be very hopeful about the generations of daughters we are raising. In fact, we're not doing such a bad job ourselves. Women voters are uniting against mens' traditional desire to control female reproduction. We're not buying the idea that they have the right to tell us what to do with our health. There is a great elephant in the room, ladies, and this is it:

Men are no longer necessary for having a family. You can get a sperm donor. You can even get a free sperm donor. Imagine that-- you get an education, you have a child when and if you want. You might not choose your sex partner to be the father of your children. Since you're educated, you can support your child yourself, so that whole fear is out the window. The choice is yours. This scares men because it takes power out of their hands.

Two of my daughters' husbands took our family name instead of my daughters taking their names. Times are a-changing.

Anagrammy

Inspiring words, Anagrammy. I hope I can internalize those words with my own 2 daughters. Thank you.

I think men naturally have more risk taking behaviors and leaving the tribe is not 'safe'.

From what I've read about female circumsion (which is barbaric), it is the women that are pushing this onto their daughters and granddaughters more than the men.

In reading Carolyn Jessop's book 'Escape', Carolyn suffered much more abuse and deprivation from her sister wives than she did her husband. Also, the sister wives physically abused her children.

And the YW program in all of my wards has been headed by pretty, perky women...women whose husbands are climbing the mormon ladder. Women who have a lot of social benefit from staying in the morg. These women are put in there specifically because they can convince the YW to stay with the program.

And a woman's whole self worth in the morg is tied to her husband's place in the church and her children turning out to be perfect mormon. I think my mil is more upset about losing her status as the 'mom with 7 temple married, perfect kids' than she is about how our lives are turning out.

I agree that if the women said, "No more", things would change at lightening fast speed.

IMHO, the biggest thing that keeps women in the church is the fear of rejection and enormous pressure from other WOMEN. RS is junior high on steroids.

bingo

No truer statement has ever been said. Seriously...

and revolt in unison the Church would change its rules overnight but they never will. First let me say I LOVE WOMEN. But I work in an office full of them and there is always some kind of petty intrigue, jealousy or some other unproductive shenanigans going on all the time. Getting them to organize under one banner would be very difficult. Ahh, but if they could, no mere man, particularly a geezerfied false prophet, could stand up to them.

As a male, I often wonder what keeps women interested in RS, it seems like the ultimate in a cog-of-wheel going NoWhere kinda thing.

Going to PH held some kind of Superman mystique, but what of RS? The women weren't expected to leap tall buildings, etc., more of the idea of being lulled into complacency.

Die, Morg, DIE.

Agreed - it's fear. Primarily, fear of losing their family forever. The biggest fear a woman can face is the idea of losing a child. The morg manipulates this fear to keep women in their place. A doctrine that is supposed to bring comfort, the idea family can be together forever, in the hands of Mormonism Inc. has turned into a weapon to force compliance.

But it's not just loss of an eternal family. It's the idea of the world being such a wicked place and that kids will start doing drugs, start underage drinking and eventually become alcoholics, that kids will fall in with a bad crowd that doesn't share their values, that kids will become a failure in life because they don't learn morals, their daughters will get pregnant or their sons will get STD's from out of control sex ... The women in the church are sold the idea that ONLY in the Mormon church are kids safe from the evils of the world. The church programs are the ONLY safety net. The support of "righteous companionship" is the only way to protect your kids from life's problems. The women of the church don't realize that while they may be providing some safety through church programs, they are creating a whole new set of life problems for their children through their fear. Because my mom was afraid of the world and raising kids alone (because my dad was a lawyer who worked 80 plus hours a week) she got me in a cult that took my choices away from me, kept me from thinking, achieving many of my goals, having the life I want, which made me more judgmental and caused me to have fewer real friends. Sure, it kept me off drugs but since Mormonism is a drug in it's own way, she really just gave me a different, equally debilitating set of problems. She didn't really protect me. She just exchanged one danger for another.

Women will stay in the church as long as they believe it's the only way to keep their family safe. I didn't entirely believe that safety = church and I knew people outside the church turned out just fine or better than my Mormon friends. So it didn't blind me and probably a lot of women on this board had a similar ability to "see". But as long as women are blinded by fear for their family, they will be exploited by those who rule by fear.

Not to be argumentative (I always love your comments)... But, the safety of the children seems to be very much secondary to the image of a perfect family that must be reflected to other women.

My mother didn't really care if I ended up on drugs, in hell, with a raging STD as long as I didn't make her look bad. And, I don't think she's particularly unique.

Honestly, I think you are right. Growing up in CA, I noticed the emphasis was more on protecting children from evil. But it
seemed like people in the Moridor, (Utah, Idaho) care more about their position and their image, while their children ran wild. So maybe it just depends on locale - if you are out in the "wild world" outside of Utah, you may worry about temptations but if you are in the "safety of Zion" it may be all about keeping up the image and keeping your place in the tribe.

My mother was a presbyterlan minister's daughter and was exactly the same way. Apperance was everything. I remember how she freaked out when I was eleven or twelve and wanted to learn how to use power tools (somebody had mysteriously switched the "21" for home ec class for a "12" for shop class on a school form as if by magic). Fortunately, my father thought differently -- he built a shop for me in the backyard.

I've met many LDS women who are bright and capable--but they seem to enjoy being dependent on a "worthy preisthood holder". some are proud they married young, don't have an education, and have never worked outside the home.

When I was the ward employment specialist I was working with a young woman who had graduated from high school. She wanted to become a surgical technician--her parents kept hounding her about getting married. She was very distressed when they hounded her.

Unbelievable.

This is a tough issue. I did raise a very independent daughter who doesn't take bull from the mormon guys, but it is a double-edged sword in mormonism as your narrow your chances of marriage by a long shot. My daughter did climb trees, play ball, etc.

I bought all the bull and then fought it. After twins, I didn't want any more children. Can you imagine how much time and energy you could give your "spirit" children in the CK? I'm so glad I only had two. I tried really hard to fit the mormon mold and balked constantly. I won't remarry--though I'm in a long-term relationship. I keep my home and come and go as I please. I will never allow a man to tell me what I can do for my children or how I can spend my money ever again. My daughter also only wants 2 kids at the most. AND my daughter is only now trying her hand at cooking. It was not something I "taught" her--or expected her to do.

Oh--I can certainly see the church going to h*ll pretty quickly if the women all balked, but they won't for the very reason that CA girl stated--FOREVER FAMILY.

BUT the men are equally used and abused in mormonism--unless you are in the upper levels. Porn, porn, porn is one of the big ones. Women who want their men to be the bishop, SP, etc. Expect them to earn the entire living for the family even in dire circumstances while the wives sit at home. Some women LOVE this situation and refuse to work and resent it if they have to. I HAD to work. I about lost my mind being a SAHM (and, what do you know, I work at home, but it gives me some "power" over my own destiny).

Fantastic thread and great posts. What has been discussed here was a definite major reason that last night my DH and I handed in our official resignation to our Bishop. We are both converts and it became so intolerable to us both.

This issue is a problem the world over, it always has been and not just for mormons.

Women are blamed at the very start of the bible. I work in Corporate America and the glass ceiling is alive and well. Even Mark Zuckerberg, CEO of Facebook has ZERO women on his board.

Men are not innocent re this issue. Lets call a spade a spade.

Our gods are male. That tells who is in charge.

It is not just Mormonism.

It's the same situation that exists in other cultures where women are kept down by their own actions.

When young girls get "female circumcision" I was appalled to realize it is the women who assist and perpetuate it. They have bought in to the idea that it needs to be done when it is really about men controlling their women (aka reproductive vessels).

If women would NOT participate, things would change. But no, the women empower and perpetuate the oppression.

This goes for Catholics and Mormon women who are endorcing MALE leadership and males determining female reproductive roles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DlJgK0K27U

They resorted in the end to sex strikes. A similar thing happened in Northern Ireland.

These women used their real power and achieved massive change.

Okay, these were wars. But these women were fed up with having no voice until they rebelled and found it.

Go girls!

Briggy

specifically in regards to men trying to decide whether or not women should have access to birth control. OK, then - if women would all agree to keep an aspirin between their legs until men agreed that maybe birth control was up to her...I imagine things might change, and they'd be grateful if their woman might be "sl*tty" just for them.

The only problem with that is you can still go at it with your knees together.

Whom ever has the money, has the power.

Men use fear in some contries they use acid and one woman wanted an education wile her husband was away got much of her hand cut off. If it comes down to it and men were desprate enough they could just drag back a woman to thair cave and do what he liked.

No matter how bad it is for sosiaty to have half its briliant minds shackled by that sosiaty the ones with the power will still not share it given a choice.

And that glass sceling many women wont even admit still exists is very real just every woman thate ether had an easy time or didnt mind a man geting overly familier for a promotion turns around and tells us it dsoent exist. It's like awoman with a perfect marage saying all husbands behave perfectly and thers no such thing as wife beating.

The TBM women in my family consider themselves to be strong independent women. However, I see them as doing exactly what they are told. We seem to vary on the definition of independent.

I see personal strength as the ability to think and do for oneself, and to do as one wisely chooses, not as someone else commands or assigns.

In the church, strength for women seems to be defined as the ability to put up with subservience---to do what one is told rather than what knows should be done.

I think mormon women are given the "treat" of being told they are strong for being obedient. That is truly a cult mentality. Reward them for what you want them to do and make them think they chose it themselves and were strong to do that.

One of the things I love best about this board is reading the women who have unlocked their strength and their power.

"To no form of religion is woman indebted for one impulse of freedom."--Susan B. Anthony

Mormon women are treated with less respect than many animals, yet they sometimes leave the morg without noticing or caring. From my experience, more women leave because of racism and homophobia than because they and their sisters were treated worse than many stray cats.

In order to counter misogynist programming, women need to be educated in empowerment. In our society, that education is often lacking.

I was very fortunate that when I was a young teenager, I came into contact with feminist literature. The big book for me was Betty Friedan's "The Feminine Mystique." Although I didn't agree with everything she said, the book gave me an alternative point of view. It reinforced my opinion that the Roman Catholic church was very wrong to deny women effective contraception and to deny them the priesthood. The book helped me in my journey out of the church.

Years later, when I saw a female priest in an Episcopal cathedral, it was a powerful moment. I realized a certain aspect of my spiritual life that had been lacking up until then -- having female models of spiritual authority and empowerment.

I don't think that a church where women had equal power would be building 5 billion dollar malls and spending 7 dollars per member per year on charitable endeavors. I think such a church would be more focused on genuine charity.

Absolutely!

As you point out, if Mormon women woke up and made a mass exodus, who would be left for the self-important priesthood holders to boss around? The house of cards would fall!

appeared on the scene, Mary Wollstonecraft in "A Vindication of the Rights of Women" wrote:

"But whether she be loved or neglected, her first wish should be to make herself respectable, and not to rely for all her happiness on a being subject to like infirmities with herself."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2012 10:53AM by jpt.

I never wanted to be called to be a bishop, Sunday school president, etc.

I didn't WANT to give blessings. That would have been a nightmare for me to have to speak for God when I couldn't even get answers to my own prayers.

The only regret I have is that when I was in the RS Presidency, I ACTUALLY went to the bishop and waited for PERMISSION to invite someone outside the Stake to come for Homemaking meeting. Because that was the stake policy. But it was extremely irritating that they didn't trust the women to make their own choices. Even MORE irritating was my submission.

If they trusted me enough to give me the calling, they should have trusted my judgement to execute it. I was a grown woman, for Hell's sake!

Women still earn less than men for similar work. And this is worse in Utah. Look, for example, at the disparity between what male lawyers are paid and what female lawyers are paid.
http://utahwomenlawyers.org/wp-content/uploads/WLU_Report_Final.pdf (Long PDF, about 60 pages, and scholarly, but you can skim it for the charts that show sexual harassment and unequal pay for women.)

The pay discrepancy is just one more factor in the suite of factors that keep women dependent. Here's a link to an article about unequal pay in general: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/51649734-79/women-pay-workers-discrimination.html.csp

Women are not expected to complete their education in Utah. Look at the statistics for numbers of females that start college, but that do not finish. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53560186-78/college-utah-women-force.html.csp

Cultural factors are at work to fulfill the bias that LDS Church leaders have against women. They either set women up to fail in what they consider inappropriate roles, or they make it difficult for women to succeed in terms of financial reward or in terms of wielding power. And then the male LDS leaders say, "See, we were right about women."

Women are used as slaves to build the kingdom ... the kingdom being not a sacred thing at all, but a power/money sphere controlled here on earth by a bunch of misogynists.

Women are told that it's not the men in the LDS Church who are defining women's roles, it's God.

So if a woman ventures beyond the accepted roles, she is defying God, going against God's plan.

That's emotional, psychological, and just dumb-a$$ blackmail.