http://www.ohnopodcast.com/investigations/2012/2/15/ross-and-carrie-meet-phil.html

After listening to the above "Oh No, Ross and Carrie" podcast I went out and bought Phil Zuckerman's book titled "Faith no more, Why People Reject Religion." I'm about halfway through and like it.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/faith-no-more-phil-zuckerman/1102271136

Anyway ... chapter 4 focuses more on Mormons and the following points really stuck out in my mind.

"Of those I interviewed, the ex-Mormons seemed the most concerned about being "found out" in the wake of this books publication. They were the only ones who still cared deeply about what their friends, families and coreligioists might think of their apostasy. Nearly everyone else whom I interviewed didn't seem to care at all - ex-Catholics, ex-Protestants, ex-Jehovah's Witnesses, ex-Jews - and they didn't really mind much if anyone knew of their apostasy, and they didn't worry about offending or upsetting any of their former coreligionists."

.... "Why, out of all the individuals from a variety of religious backgrounds, were the former Mormons most pained by and worried about their apostasies? I attribute it to the extent that Mormonism really is a near "total world" - an all-encompassing subculture of religion and heritage that is held together by, among other things, a highly regulated and perpetually enforced cultural-religious-political conformity."

In light of the frequent angst ridden posts on this board about how and when to tell people about our disbelief, I just thought I'd share. It's been a good book so far.

it's about being shunned, and suffering serious consequences. There's gossip, discrimination, isolation, lost business, etc., because TSCC teaches that people who leave have sinned somehow, and chose to live a sinful life over their "truth". People who leave are always labeled as bad, and there is no tolerance for them.

Everything that atheist&happy said is true.
And that's with YOUR family. Never mind what people in the ward and stake are saying and thinking.

I attribute it to the extent that Mormonism really is a near "total world" - an all-encompassing subculture of religion and heritage that is held together by, among other things, a highly regulated and perpetually enforced cultural-religious-political conformity."

This is such a well said and accurate statement. A perpetually enforced cultural - religious - Political conformity. Amazing how that conformity is enforced 24/7 by TBMs when they don't even realize they are doing anything.
We are so well self policed it is scary. Almost cultlike...

One, though not the only aspect, of my pain in leaving Mormonism was I had made commitments and I was breaking them. I felt like a traitor to many people I cared about and who had been good to me. Not to "the Brethren" or "the Church" but people I knew personally.

May I suggest that's because in Mormonism all relationships are infected with church-stuff. Your friendship with these people was church-based in its foundation.

That's why so many Mormons think they are being so magnanimous when they say to a disbelieving Mormon who has come out of the closet, "I still love you anyway."

I loathe "I still love you anyway."

"Look how forgiving I am." That reaction really peeved me.

WickedTwin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I loathe "I still love you anyway."


Yeah, it's like the one where they go, "Well, no one's perfect."

So in other words, a larger percentage of disbelieving Mormons go to church and go through the motions to not be "found out" than members of other religions.

Which tends to imply that a larger percentage of a Mormon congregation doesn't believe in their own church than in other denominations.

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So in other words, a larger percentage of
> disbelieving Mormons go to church and go through
> the motions to not be "found out" than members of
> other religions.
>
> Which tends to imply that a larger percentage of a
> Mormon congregation doesn't believe in their own
> church than in other denominations.


Actually, the specific ex-Mormons Zuckerman interviewed for his book had all totally stopped attending and/or resigned or been excommunicated, yet he still made the observation.

The woman who seemed to have prompted the observation in the first place hadn't been to church in two years, had shed the Gs, wore tank tops in public, etc., but still didn't want anyone to know she'd contributed by being interviewed about it. Zuckerman does make an aside statement elsewhere that there are probably a large number of people who would like to leave, but don't. I would take it that they would comprise a wholly different subject sub-group than who he's focusing on in this particular book.

I have always been most moved by the idea that there are people who go to the LDS church basically because they are FORCED to do so. Compulsion of belief, enslavement to a group, is wrong on every level, in every way.

Mormons do not fathom how wrong their culture of social control and conformity of conscience is.

There are countless members who struggle and suffer mightily and needlessly for years because they do not want to hurt family members who are more committed to the LDS church than they are to individuals in their families who question or disaffect from the LDS church.

Maybe saddest of all are those who struggle and question and doubt, who do not believe, but who come up with rationalizations, who sort out, again, after much psychological effort and pain, accommodations with the Mormons in order to survive or to keep marriages and families intact. There is evil and institutional abuse there, in all such cases, that the Mormon church needs to answer for.

I don't care that people know I'm an apostate. I wear that "scarlet letter" as a proud badge of stubborn individuality based on principle triumphing over mindless conformity based on dishonesty.

What I do care about, however, is when lying Mormons make stuff up about my self-determined exit from their church in order to justify the faith-promoting LDS myths to which they desperately cling in order to steady their inwardly shaky faith. The Mormon-fueled fable of a Steve Benson excommunication carries with it the assumptive element that I didn't want to leave the Mormon church, which is completely contrary to the truth. That's when I step in to correct Mormon revisionist "history" with a dose of inconvenient fact.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2012 03:34AM by steve benson.

I'm not shy about it. Wanna cop an attitude? You ain't seen attitude ya frickin' wussy.

One of these days somebody's just gonna shoot me.

Oh, how true. We've seen so many posts about former members losing their families. It's heartbreaking. I don't understand how I ever loved that church.

He forgot the near total childish hissy fits are family members throw when they find out.

It's not just the subculture or the fact it gets into everything it's the fact its just under the normal world and almost a shadow of the normal world. The fear isnt just mormons its the fact everyone may trust the mormons on why somene leaves and its not quite as bad as getting killed but if things get bad enough an end would solve things there is no solving anyth ing with mormons. It's just more and more hell everyone is aready indoctoranated withj rthe reaons for leaveing and how bad they areand if you leave your bad think outer darkness. Then getting out into the big wide world and people turning around and teling you you shouldnt have left because it dosent seem that bad. Islam atlest has people syaing for osme its really bad but if everyone thinks mormons are really nice people then your constantly going to suffer from your desition. THats why people find it hard to leave the church because they see no true escape.

There is actualy light at the end of the tunnel just its so hard getting there.

and from what I've seen, their "fear" of being found out and/or ostracized is the same, if not worse, than mormonism's. Maybe it's true for some of the others.

That said.... even though JW's will be shunned by their immediate family members, they are able to disappear from the local congregation without being overtly hassled once a month or more.

And also important... there is no "JW corridor" like there is the mormon corridor. So, the fact that mormons may live in a mormon-pervasive society would certainly exacerbate the fear of leaving.

fwiw

Mormons like thair paperwork as long as it goes in thair favor.

Also as I was saying people think JWs are strange and weard and have some sympathy for htem whent hey get out.