First of all, hat's off to sagacity and collective wisdom and experience of you, my online friends.

I won't rehash the whole storyline, but for those who might be interested.

Wife caught me using opiates to escape the pain of my father's recent death. She then told me to leave, get help, see counselor's etc.

Which I have done.

A few weeks later, she decided my being an occoasional/social drinker, was an unacceptable risk. Don't drink ever again or don't come home.

I spent a good deal of time reasoning with her about how she is blowing up our boat, to protect against the chance we might wander into troubled waters.

Had lunch with her yesterday, with our exchange of ideas devolving to the point of. "It's clear that alcohol is more important to you than your family". "No, it's clear to me you will manipulate me with access to my own kids, in order to live your particular lifestyle.

Continued on this way for a while "I know you are, but what am I..."

I told her after thinking about it for a few days that I'm not convinced this marriage is going to work out period. That I will be coming home in a day or two to stay. That I am not doing anything dangerous, illegal, or immoral, and that if she wants to end the marriage with that knowledge, then she is free to leave. I got up, and walked out of the restaurant.

She came by late last night with hat in hand and is ready to forgo her Ultimatum.

Amazing what happens when you call a bluff.

Read and learn dear readers.

I didn't reply to you because I didn't feel qualified but I was concerned and I'm relieved that good advice of others might be working for you.

Take care.

Try...in all / as many as possible... to make it a 50/50 relationship. Best For ALL!

This is good.

Now maybe you need to suggest that she gets some counselling? I am serious. It's possible she has had 'advice' from TBMs and needs to have the crap they gave her washed out.

I find it hidious that I keep finding these things everywhere. A ralationship isnt just take its about giveing as well she cant justs keep takeing and not expect to give.

I think you did great. Here's hoping she isn't plotting something else insidious and manipulative.

Glad to hear it AOT. Keep ur balls dusted off and handy from now on. ;-)

This is excellent news! I hope you both don't fall back into your old ways of interacting (her being passive agressive and you being too conciliatory). Best of luck to you both!

Please take a good look at how you are drinking. If you are drinking to self medicate the emotional pain away I seriously doubt that it is just a little. It may start off innocently enough and then before you know it it can become a crutch that is hard to say goodbye to. I don't think that we can judge what is going on in your life and your drinking by just hearing your side of the story. Maybe your wife has more legitimate concerns...not all wives(even Mormon ones) are just concerned about what the church thinks. Maybe she does see you going down a bad road of self medicating. Please take depression seriously and seek more help if needed. Many people on here just shoot from the hip because they are bitter about their own experiences, but yours may not be the same.

Ah, "bitter" used as a passive-aggressive pejorative! Mormonism has a unique gift of twisting the sh*t out of a word for its nefarious use in condemning others--witness, "offended." Thank you, Clarice. Thank you.

I don't see the bitterness of which you speak, but I see a lot of jumping to conclusions and judgments from you. Do you have personal experience with this? If yes, I'm sorry for your pain.

To the OP, best wishes for smoother relationship seas ahead.

and says nothing about those you seek to marginalize.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2012 07:42AM by Cheryl.

Good for you for standing your ground! :-D

I don't understand why many people responded with the assumption that you have a problem with alcohol when you said:

"Keep in mind that I have been drinking occasionally (1-3 times per month) for 5 years, when out with friends, not at home. That is our arrangement. Never been a problem."

You don't seem to have a problem with alcohol. You do seem to have a problem with how it's perceived by your wife. Glad to see you stand up for yourself in that regard.

.....hmmmm, I heard opiates and depression mentioned as reasons for using them. I didn't think it was totally out there to question whether or not he is self medicating. Again we are only hearing one side. I wasn't being rude or condescending...just concerned. I didn't see where he said he only drinks 1 to 3 times a month..that must have been in another post :)

Which doesn't justify fictionalizing another side to every story.

If non-posting TBMs needed advice and support from us, they would come here and ask for it.

From my experience, people often underreport their use of alcohol. The are several reasons for this: It might be they lose track due to the effect of the alcohol, or they don't play attention, or they are embarrassed.

The OP may be accurate about his alcohol use or he may not. In addition to the amount and frequence of alcohol use, I think the reason for use is important. I see someone having a drink to socialize or relax now and then as different from drinking to medicate the feelings of a big loss. The latter has the potential to become a serious problem.

.

Seems flimsy to marinalize posters with first hand observations in favor of someone who isn't here with "their side of the story."

I think that is a good working assumption to start but my work tells me that we never get a complete story. That's just the nature of things. We all select a point of view, consciously or unconsciously. This seems even more true with alcohol and sex. You very often don't get a fuller account until sometime later, if at all. I don't think badly of people for it. I have the same partialness.

We are not the judges of a situation, we are here to help people who choose to post. OF COURSE it's one side and that's fine. Absolutely everyone works from their own paradigm, posters and responders alike.

There is no "neutral" truth because the incidents described here are in the past and only live in people's memory. It is often shocking how different those recollections are.

RfM posters benefit from having the exposure to other paradigms, other ways to view their problems, other solutions. They are opening up from a closed system. Mormons don't even acknowledge an validity in other views whatsoever. It is a big step for a poster to come here, lay out a situation and then draw from the potpourri of wisdom, wisecracks and folly which follow.

I have a personal crazy situation with a daughter who has a five year old still breastfeeding. I vacillate between asking her when they will join the circus and complete acceptance that she hears a different drummer. Before I do/say something I regret, I check with my peers here. I ask, "Am I off?" because I can feel the surges of emotion inside and I know I simply cannot be objective about this. Yet I know asking "Have you f@cking lost your mind?" is not going to promote harmony. My facial expression alone has created a rift.

The OP here has a victory NOT over his wife, or calling her "bluff", rather he has scored a big one in acknowledging and acting on the fact that his feelings and beliefs are equally worthy--that he himself--is equally worthy of respect.

I don't feel this has much to do with alcohol. The manipulative wife is simply using the cudgel the church handed her- the World of Wisdom-- to strengthen her power. We all know that Mormon women have no power, which makes them reactionary bitches. (and I man my former Mormon self). This is about power and the OP drew a line that is the first step to saving his marriage. Insist on equal respect.

Now the challenge for the OP is to avoid continuing the game by extending the power chip that he has earned. The wisest marriage-saving mode would be to give up alcohol completely while reserving the right to drink if and when one pleases, as long as it is not to excess. This would send a message to the wife that the OP cares about her views but will not let her use them to bully him into a cowering "sinner" with her dictating everything he does. He acts from free will.

If that doesn't feel right to the OP, then he can choose some other method, like occasionally accompanying the wife to Sacrament meeting, to demonstrate support for her beliefs EVEN THOUGH HE DOESN'T AGREE WITH THEM. It is important to model this because the wife and kids are not taught tolerance at church. They only mouth the 11th Article of faith. The OP can reasonably teach them to live it. He can present that as a spiritual benefit of his apostasy, if you will.

Congratulations for a wonderful first step, OP--we are all so happy for you!

Anagrammy

you've won a very important battle but please make sure that you now make sure to try and give her valid concerns equal weight. Don't let her manipulate you anymore but try listening to the concerns she brings to you. Use "I" statements and let her know that you care that she is happy too, even though you cannot be soley responsible for that happiness. How you treat her now could make the marriage vastly better, assuming there is real love between the two of you.

(If she was just looking for a malleable church dupe nothing will help but until you know for certain it's not going to hurt to assume there is a marriage worth saving. Right?)

Best wishes. I'm really glad this seems to be working out so well.

The easy part is over.

The hard part is how do you build a good relationship with your wife now?

Congratulations. Warning, it may be a temporary concession. My ex pulled that when I called her bluff--gave in. Months later, she eased back into ultimatums and "future threats" kind of logic.

I am glad you are going home. You don't deserve ultimatums. At the same time winning a round in a power struggle is not enough to make your marriage work for either of you. That it got to the point it has says that there is work to do with communication and appropriate assertiveness, at least. Even better would be to build intimacy. I also share the concern about how you are using alcohol.

I have a suggestion you may not like: Make commitment to your wife not to drink--and don't. It would be gracious and show you are listening. It would also be something she doesn't expect and good surprises are good. Then get busy together working on your relationship. I like John Gottman's Ten Lessons to Transform Your Marriage and Hold Me Tight by Sue Johnson.

I agree ultimatums aren't ideal and make us feel angry and manipulated. Still, some men I have talked to rethought their priorities and were better for it. I would take a stand against being threatened and manipulated. Good for you for doing it! On the other hand, I would not make alcohol the hill I am willing to die on.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2012 07:43AM by robertb.

Sounds like something Gandhi, with superb interpersonal intelligence, would have recommended.

I understand not wanting to give in to an ultimatum, but if the request itself is not a big deal (not an attack on one's identity), then prove it by easy and detached compliance. Your way of making it a personal commitment shows there's no resistance and that he wants to transcend the whole issue.

Great first step. Mo'ism does such a number on us.

What concerns me the most about your situation is what I perceive to be your wife's downright cruelty; rather than supporting you in your grief process, she is using your moment of vulnerability to manipulate you. I agree with the other posters that you have taken a wonderfully positive step in standing up to her, but, except for your children, I wonder if this is the sort of woman with whom you want to spend your life.

You've suffered some major losses in a short period of time. Have you considered bereavement counseling?

The most important thing is, you're back - back in your own home, back in your kids' lives. Don't let anything take you away from them again.
To give your wife the benefit of the doubt, maybe she was just scared. If she got the idea that you were an addict and thought that forcing you to give up alcohol was for your own good, I could understand that. Ultimatums are always harmful to a relationship, but now that you're past that, all the patience, understanding, and love you've been showing for your wife all along will help with rebuilding your relationship. robertb's suggestion is good if you choose to go with that. Giving up alcohol now (maybe even temporarily) just out of respect for your wife's feelings, without being forced to, would be another way to show her you love her. Of course you know your wife better than any of us do, so take whatever advice sounds best to you. Glad to hear that things are going well.