Just when I think we are getting out of TSCC, DW goes Chernobyl on me last night because instead of going to church this morning we went to the park. Had a great time with the kids then I suggest we go to Home Depot to get some supplies to finish up a project she has been wanting to knock out for months! Big mistake because our toddler daughter starts singing "Follow the Profit" as we walk down an aisle and I have the gall to get my kids some Disney wall stickers. This combo sets her off!!

"Is this the life we are going to lead!!! Buying stuff on Sunday!!!" I never knew you had so many doubts before we got married!! You had to go off and F-in Change your views!! I wish we never would have found out the truth!! She goes on and on about how the kids are going to turn out to be sex crazed druggie heathens. She is so uncertain about the future now. And yes folks, SHE KNOWS TSCC is man made! DOESN'T SEEM to matter and for the first time I am seriously starting to wonder if we can survive this. The crazy thing is we have a wonderful family life. On the things that matter we haven't been better. But she keeps saying she WISHES she didn't know.

I keep thinking I am the guy that told my little sibling that Santa doesn't exist!! See what you have done!! Christmas will NEVER be the same!! Thanks a lot!!! You have ruined one of the most magical times of the year!!

Now how in the hell are we gonna raise our kids all because of the freaking truth she cries. Any attempt to reason is brushed off. I have been patient but I reaching a limit here with this obstinate close-mindedness. If I bring up why I am in this spot (ie JS marrying his foster girls for instance) she immediately tries to stop me saying she doesn't want to hear hear it (even though she agrees). If she literally put her fingers in her ears and screamed LALALA it would be no different. "I don't want to talk about that, I am worried about our children's future!!"

What is hard maybe for some on this board to relate to is that her experience was by and large POSITIVE in the church. She had very good parents and loving leaders throughout her childhood and teenage years. She doesn't harbor any negative feelings. She thinks it is good and all the stuff I have brought up is in the past. Let's go back to having the good feelings!! At least there will be a path to raise the kids with some morals!! I don't want to admit this but I think she honestly feels it may be near to impossible to raise good, moral kids outside of TSCC. I have read Packhams list and have tried to share but she simply falls back on her own experience growing up. I have tried to explain that it was doable because her parents believed in TSCC...BUT we don't. Doesn't seem to reach her. If this keeps up I just don't know. Can anyone out there relate to this?

did she take the red pill or did she take the blue pill ?

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
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> did she take the red pill or did she take the blue
> pill ?

I think midol is blue, right?

Last week someone posted a thread talking about how a TBM on Facebook said she didn't want to know about the truth because her identity is the church and to take the church away from her would be taking away who she is.

It sounds like your wife is having the same problem. She has built her entire world, her identity, who she is around the church and now she is having a hard time finding herself if you take that away. This is very simplistic, but she is acting like a little child when you take away their candy. She doesn't know who she is, how to act, how to think, or anything about herself if she loses the identity of herself that is the church.

Honestly I think you may need to go to counseling, non mormon for sure, to help her find herself. She is definitely going to need to find herself and figure out who she is without the church if you are ever going to be able to move on.

She feels lost and confused and afraid right now. You need to help her find herself, her TRUE self that is her without the church as her identity. Good luck, I hate to see your marriage break up if you are truly in love.

And, oddly, love. Maybe she's afraid you can't have safe, healthy, happy children without the structure, standards and boundaries of the church. (That's what they want members to believe.) So maybe the thing is to find an alternate source of structure, standards and boundaries. Or at least a never-mo social group with safe, healthy, happy children. "See, Honey, Mormonism doesn't have an exclusive franchise on this stuff."

It will take some time for her. She's undergone a huge paradigm shift. Get a therapist to reinforce this idea. It's funny, but my ex-wife, who is still a TBM, won't drink coke or coffee, but will sleep with anyone she meets on a dating site. Go figure. Mormons are so weird, I'm sorry, I mean "peculiar."

Be patient. Buy her some flowers. Apologize to her and let her know you understand how she feels, and that your love for her will over shadow this transitionary period. Encourage her to go to a non-mormon marriage therapist. Good luck.

Anon8 Wrote:
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> Be patient. Buy her some flowers. Apologize to
> her and let her know you understand how she feels,
> and that your love for her will over shadow this
> transitionary period. Encourage her to go to a
> non-mormon marriage therapist. Good luck.


Why should he apologize? He didn't do anything wrong. He did something different.

Another take on this (unlikely) is that she is looking for a way to keep the power, by creating a conflict over which he must submit.

Personally, I think she is having trouble with the transition just as many others here said. It's transient and should correct itself with just understanding and patience. Doing "sacred" or reverent family things on Sunday isn't such a bad compromise. Forcing your way, or allowing her to force her way, will create resentment on someone's part. That will erode the marriage.

Compromise is the order of the day.

She is probably grieving. It takes time to grieve and she needs that time.

Mormonism was ripped from me, too, and I didn't know the whole truth. My life was such a f*cking mess that I had to step away for a while and concentrate on surviving the end to my marriage, my cog dis over gay issues, raising my kids, working 2 jobs. It took about 8 years of inactivity before it fell apart.

It is a nice little dream--but that is all it is. My gay husband wanted the dream worse than I did--and, he, of all people will still debate mormon issues or come out in defense of mormonism.

Be patient. Everyone has a different grieving process.

I am still in the transitioning period, and I am deadly afraid that this is what will happen to my wife. She is a very rational person in every other way (she's a biology teacher, and firmly believes in evolution, too), but she too has had only positive experiences up until now. She loves the church, and I'm causing her incredible pain. She knows my views on the LDS church, but really refuses to look at evidence. I'm certain eventually her own logic will prevail, but I'm afraid it will only make her life an absolute hell... Please let us know how this comes out...

Of course she wishes she didn’t know! Life worked just fine before she found out! She had the support of her family and a huge church community, and she believed in the “wholesome” values TSCC presumably teaches. The Morg was a “safe” place to raise children in an unsafe world.

But as Craig says, “She feels lost and confused and afraid right now.” The best thing you can do (at an appropriately calm time) is to invite her to share her concerns, assuring her that you will listen kindly. Your job then is to follow through by listening compassionately; i.e. without blame and WITHOUT trying to talk her out of her fears or fix things. Just LET HER TALK and lovingly allow her to express her fears.

When she has said everything she wants to say, ACKNOWLEDGE that living according to the truth you two have discovered does have major challenges. Then you might ask her what she suggests you two / your family do next. Let HER take the lead.

All of the above assumes that your priority is keeping your marriage.

“Two steps forward, one step back.” DW has taken a step back. If you lovingly step back along with her, the day is likely to come when she is ready to step forward again!

Thanks to all for the comments except the Midol barb.

I have offered to go to Church with her as we transition but she can't stand the idea of that...doesn't seem genuine. Paralyzed by fear of the future is the current state. Critical thinking is tough when it comes to religious matters right now. In a fog of fear. I hear your advice and will do the best I can to let her lead and try to stay patient.

wegotproblems Wrote:
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> Thanks to all for the comments except the Midol
> barb.
>

Ah, you're welcome. ;-)

I'd point out a problem or gift I'd see in a child, then instead of discussing how to address the child's needs, the parent would launch into long tales about their own childhood.

I think this is not healthy for the individual child who has upfront and personal present time needs.

My conclusions:

What did or did not work for a parent 25 years ago has little bearing on what a young child needs in today's society when their gifts, problems, and challenges are very different than the parents.

Parents need to stop trying to replicate or relive their childhoods. Too often, they they indulge in trying to parent the child they used to be and sidestep the important job of of rearing their children in the here and now.

I know what I'm talking about and hope it might help one or two little kiddies out there.

If she openly fears the truth, maybe you can point her in the direction of D&C 93:24-25 to see if she prefers the alternative - which she admits the Morg to be.

Do you know any other families with well adjusted children that live the truth as they know it? If so, introduce her to them so she realizes that the alternative to a lie can be quite pleasant.

reassure her regularly that things are going to be fine.

99.9% of the world raises their kids without Mormonism, and believe it or not, many of them end up being responsible and moral people. It might be helpful to read books about raising moral kids (Children's Book of Virtues, and others), if she feels like she needs some parental guidance and confidence that she can do it.

She may not believe the church is true as a whole, but she still needs to challange ALL of her assumptions and fears that were planted there by the church. And the ideas that you can't have a happy family or that your kids will become druggies and juvenile delinquents without the church are pretty pervasive. She needs to deprogram herself, not just doctrinally, but emotionally.

So why, exactly, must kids be raised with magical thinking and false prophets and be showered weekly with guilt and fear to become moral? She needs to continually remind herself that the church is false. There is no mormon mojo for raising kids. Mormons have just as many problems or more than anyone else. They may be able to cover it up better, but that's worse than facing the issues.

Another thing: The Sunday shopping guilt. I had that, too, even AFTER I stopped believing in God. Guilt is a conditioned response. It's not rational, and it's not based in the thinking part of your brain. I had to challenge the guilt reaction NUMEROUS times before I tamed it.

Example:

Old conditioned response: "I'm feeling guilty for shopping on Sunday. Maybe something BAD is going to happen to me."

Challenging my thinking: "But wait, I don't even believe in God. If there is no God, it doesn't MATTER if I shop on Sunday"

Old thinking: "But what if you are WRONG and there IS a God and he's going to be pissed that you aren't following his rules?"

Challenging my thinking "Well, if there IS a God, why would He really CARE what day I shop, anyway? And if He DID care, would that be a reasonable expectation? Considering I've never seen him, and I heard 2nd hand from a bunch of liars and a book of myths (the Bible) what He expects from me, is the idea that He ever said that even believable?"

Reprogramming my emotional response: "I LOVE shopping on Sunday. There are NO lines, no crowds, great parking, and I always run into exmo friends at the stores".

How old are the kids? Give her time. My dh was like this as well, had a great childhood, great experiences at church...understood it was all fake but still felt it was a good influence for our kids. I'm even ok with Primary really because the full crap doesn't hit the fan til YM/YW. After seeing the way some of the YW leaders have treated me and our daughter, the light has come on. Other child is not happy either and suddenly it's you are right, if the kids aren't happy it isn't going to matter whether we go or not. The way I read your post, your wife is feeling the same, she needs to see that the kids aren't happy for it to kick in. This may take time depending on how old the kids are. The best I can tell you is, hang in there, I never thought it would happen either.

This is excellent advice and bears repeating:

"And, oddly, love. Maybe she's afraid you can't have safe, healthy, happy children without the structure, standards and boundaries of the church. (That's what they want members to believe.) So maybe the thing is to find an alternate source of structure, standards and boundaries. Or at least a never-mo social group with safe, healthy, happy children. "See, Honey, Mormonism doesn't have an exclusive franchise on this stuff.""

I debated on commenting on this topic, it hits pretty close to home. I have come to the conclusion that the church is becoming more and more harmless, and if you take away the power of the "leadership" in your home, it is easy to deprogram any damage that might be done to your children.

My DW loves church and all of the busyness that comes with it. I think of it as her hobby. We do not pay tithing, my main beef, and I go once a week, just like she does stuff for me that she does not care for.

I came out because my daughter needed me too, she does not believe. I am pretty sure most of my other children will do what they want to as well. Even my most devout son does not think he will go on a mission. This is encouraging.

I think as your wife finds her children are not turning into devil worshipping drug addicts she will see that there is good everywhere. It is deep programming that happens to BIC members and it takes a long time to deprogram. I even find myself thinking "mormon" thoughts even now.

As others have counsled, patience, love, and consistency.

My DH left before me and even though I realized it was a scam and was *never* happy in TSCC it took some adjustment. I may have chuckled when I read your wife's words because they could have come right out of my mouth a few years ago.

Other posters here who have used the word "mourning" are absolutely right. I had to grieve the loss of all the wonderful things TSCC promised me if I would just live worthy and put up with all their crap.

They get their hooks into women very young. I remember being only twelve when a teacher told me that if I was married in the new and everlasting covenant that any child I miscarried once I married would be mine to raise in the CK. That is a huge comfort in the face of a loss like that even if it's not official church doctrine. And it goes on and on. They have so many comfort devices in to keep women going and dragging their husbands that it takes a long time to detach.

The first year afer we left was pure hell for me emotionally. I had to make peace with the idea that I might not have my whole family forever. That my children would never sing Primary songs with me and make temple shaped cookies. Sometimes I miss the familiarity of it all. But I have never been back. Why? Because it's a lie.

Please be loving and patient with her as she adjusts. It will pass as she meets non mos with good families and happy children. That's what TSCC promises and it really doesn't ever deliver.

You reminded me of something I forgot to post...she often characterizes this transition as her "Dreams dying" - dreams of seeing the kids participate in the primary program, dreams of having our family sealed for all eternity with big family reunions having a picnic on the Temple grounds, baby blessings with promises of the dreams to the child etc etc. I feel really bad; Never in my wildest...well, dreams did I think I would be the catalyst for laying waste to DW's childhood dreams. It sucks. I just hope she can get through this mourning/grief phase.

Hopefully she'll eventually give up on those idealized dreams and come up with alternatives that are just as good or better. . . . like perhaps seeing her daughters graduate from college. Or see them become confident and self-supporting before they get married and have babies.

Perhaps one of her greatest "fears" at the moment is that if you could change your mind about something as important as The Church and The Gospel, what's next? Are you going to change your mind about her?

Acknowledge her feelings, fears and concerns. No one likes to have their feelings dismissed or invalidated. And most importantly reassure her through words and actions that you have no intention of changing your mind about "her". The rest you'll sort out together.

Thanks Chipsnsalsa, you helped me understand why so many normal women, are not quitting this Bizarro religion.

I'm glad I found out.
I wanted the church to be true. But its not.
No amount of crying, wishing, praying, or righteous behavior makes it true.
Living a lie your entire life and not knowing it is horrible. I did it for 57 years.
Now I have a lot of living to do in a short time.
I have to find joy in the things that bring me joy. I can't spend my time being angry, depressed and sad about what happened, even though there are times that is tempting.

It sounds like your spouse is having a bit of a relapse. Maybe that's part of the process for her. It sounds like you need to come to some agreements about family rules now that there has been a major paradigm shift. The old rules brought some comfort and guarantees with them, I think our brains have times when they want that back. I used to not shop on sunday, because I had made covenants and decisions to live that life in exchange for a exalted eternal life. Sadly that's a story that someone made up in order to have control over people. It's not a true story. It can be difficult to wrap your mind around that when it's been pounded into your head every day of your life. Not to mention that the tactic of using fear to get compliance was used. Your brain goes into the fear mode. I had to retrain my thinking. There are still times I have little brain relapses, but it gets better with time.
Maybe she needs to stay out of stores on sunday for a while. That's a small thing. Maybe it's been too much too soon, and she needs to go a little slower.

I never understood why people think that you need religion to teach kids morals. It's not the religion that teaches them, it's the parents! You can still do all the things for your kids that you would have done while a member of TSCC. Get them involved in music, drama, sports. whatever. They don't have to be mormon to be moral! I know plenty of mormon kids who have no morals at all, it's nothing to them to lie and cheat, and treat people like shit.
I hope for your sake your wife realizes this. There are plenty of people in this world, non LDS with better morals than LDS people have.

I am in almost the exact same situation. Wife also knows it isn't true but still thinks it is a good way to raise our children. She goes on and on about her siblings' kids and how great it is that they are in the church etc.

For years, she didn't want me to say anything negative about the church. And she still says she wishes she never found it it wasn't true.

It's not fun and still a big source of contention between us. But to let you know it has gotten better and she ditzes now on the church about many things.

So still not a great situation but better. We've tried other churches but nothing seems comfortable. It sucks and we don't know exactly what to do and are sort of in limbo.

Anyway, you aren't alone bro.

It always easy to stand on the outside of a "family" looking in and think "wow, how perfect they all seem", but in truth you’re only see them at their best and the public persona they present. In reality, there's a bit of dysfunction in all families and were you to live with them 24x7 you’d see them as they really are; warts and all.

It can be quite the challenge to find a new support group and sense of community when leaving the old one behind. It takes a lot of trial, error and frustration to build a new set of beliefs and to find like minded people to share common experiences with. There’s lots of good community organizations to involve yourselves with just keep trying them for size until you find one that clicks with you and your family needs. While looking you work to build your own support group within your own family. You stick together and look out of each other’s back.

We raised 3 daughters. We started in the church but left when it became a toxic element in our lives. Our girls did just fine without the church. Outside the church they learned to be individuals and to think for themselves. They pursued interests that helped shape and build their identity and character and have excelled without the limits and constraints that the church would have imposed upon them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2012 02:19PM by davesnothere.

I hear this advice often and in a rational world - at least in my situation - that would be GREAT advice, the only problem is bringing up alternative churches, communities etc is where DW really digs in her heels. There is NO WAY she is joining something else. All other religions are FALSE, full of priestcraft. Social clubs are full of people with values all over the map. It is the LDS worldview or we believe in nothing. At this point in the transition, it is a non-starter. I will be the first to admit it - sounds and feels like a cult-bot reaction. With any luck and perseverance, we can get past this and join some charity work type groups with people of similar values.

If you haven’t try reading about the "The 7 Stages of Grief" model. I found it very relevant to understanding and coping with the loss of one’s belief system.

There’s no time table to recovery. It takes as long as it takes. Like you said patience and perseverance. We’ve all had similar experiences and journeys and we’ve all found different things that worked for us. Find comfort in that you are not alone. Time heals all things.

Depending on the age of your children, you could instill a sense of charity by helping the less fortunate. Many mormons are so judgmental. Money = blessings.

Also, do you want your kids to do what's right out of fear and guilt or because it's the right thing to do?

My wife went through the same thing, but she found some comfort through a friend of hers who had never been religious in her life.

This friend basically said that Mormonism (and all religions) were trying to sell my wife something that she ALREADY OWNED. This friend didn't feel that God has anything to do with ANY religion.

This friend gave my wife some books on Near Death Experiences (NDEs). She said that no religion has exclusive rights to NDEs. That people who have had them report (1) a beautiful afterlife, (2) that their family and friends are there,(3)that life goes on in a beautiful place, and (4) that you have a chance to learn from your mistakes and go on.

It gave my wife something to fill the loss she felt. It had most of the good points of Mormonism and none of the bad, dogmatic, manipulative, crap.

Who knows if NDEs are real or not, but they are a much better thing to hope for -- and without all the abusive baggage.

It isn't enough to give something up, you need to find something to replace it with. Your wife needs a sense of hope. At least NDEs come without all the harm of most religions.

Maybe find material on ways to raise a good kid that don't involve mormonism. I don't have kids, so I'm sure others can give you some good resources, but maybe something like a subscription to Child Psychology magazine.

Again, thanks to all for the comments. This has been very helpful on a lot of levels. Just knowing you are not alone on this psychological Morgbot reject island (called Reality) brings a lot of comfort.