I've been thinking about how B&W thinking keeps TBMs from thinking outside of the church, and sometimes us from thinking flexibly.

I attempted a compromise in asking this question with a thoughtful, but dedicated TBM friend who is aware of some of the controversy:


"You and I know the historical facts about the Mormon church are not cut-n-dry. While it may still be true, the church is not very close at all to what the their manuals simply teach. Why do you think the very wise, knowledgeable and intelligent authorities of the church continue to simplify things for the membership when its clearly a different thing?"


I realize that by allowing it may be true, the leaders are wise and so on, I am in essence bending my own stance considerably, but a compromise is a good thing when two people can't see eye-to-eye. I don't feel it is a strain on my integrity to ask the question in this manner. I'm stating something from a perspective my friend can appreciate.

What do you all think?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2012 11:01AM by Jesus Smith.

I don't think you're being honest with your friend or yourself. Isn't your personal integrity more important to you than what your friend thinks about you? I don't think you need to be offensive to your friend - you can still be gentle about it, but be honest.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2012 11:06AM by canadianfriend.

Oh, my friend knows I don't believe, have left and completely disagree. I'm only stating the question in a way that won't raise his quills.

J.S.
What I'm not clear about is what your goals are for you and your friend. If I was trying to get a Mormon to come around to my way of thinking then yes, I would first establish that I am not a threat to his beliefs. I would let him know that everyone is free to believe what they want. I would then give him lots of "I totally understand why you believe that" and " Yes, that certainly appears to be true". For me that would be a more honest approach, because truth be told, I completely understand why people fall for Mormonism and get sucked into the bubble. The Mormons put on a GREAT show complete with very official looking documents (look at the preface to the BoM online) wise men in suits speaking into microphones, huge temples, music, missionaries, testimonies,"scholars", "experts", "witnesses" -- the list goes on and on.
Let us know what happens with your friend, and good luck.

The way to get TBMs thinking is not to announce our own findings, but to pose questions that may actually get THEM thinking (and possibly researching) for themselves.

Why: When we announce evidence we have found, TBMs shut down and go into automatic “The Church is Twoo” mode. In contrast, if we pose questions and pose them neutrally and nonjudgmentally, we allow TBMs to explore the ideas in a non-threatening way.

Great idea, 'Jesus Smith'!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2012 12:02PM by WiserWomanNow.

The reply from my friend was as expected: They're not perfect men.

Right. It's all innocent mistakes that the top leaders keep perpetuating myths about their history when they know the truth would hurt their bottom line.

Grrr.

You are helping your friend think outside the box. Mormons have been programmed to reject and fear any direct challenge to the brethren and doctrine without even considering the evidence. If you can talk in a way that will sidestep their hot button issues, they may be able to see past their thought stopping blocks and be one step closer to out.

That advice is from Steve Hassan's book about helping a loved one out of a mind control group. Those groups all have very similar tactics. He suggests talking about the methods other groups use to control their members. It gets them thinking and connecting the dots that "hey, mine does that too. I wonder why".

If you don't care about your friend and just want to appear like Mr Upright honest citizen, go ahead and tell him the facts straight out. Of course he will reject the facts and still think you are deluded. If you want to help him, you can't directly challenge his church at least not at first. I guess it depends what your goals are. Are you more concerned about about how you look in his eyes or are you trying to help him out of his paradigm?

aren't you assuming that we have common goals to 'compromise'?
What have THEY got that WE want?


It's all wormsh*t

guynoirprivateeye Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> aren't you assuming that we have common goals to
> 'compromise'?
> What have THEY got that WE want?
>

Friendship, love, family relation, etc.

I know, I know...

Personally I try to remember that having a hard time admitting my beliefs were wrong is what kept me in the Church as long as I was. Don't want to make the same mistake again.

Acknowledging that I could be wrong I think is one way to help avoid that.

The added bonus, as you noted, is that it might cause others to consider that they might be wrong as well— when they are not naturally disposed to doing so.

and this is what the compromise they ask for will be:

they will talk in wide circles while really trying to say:
please don't make us admit the church has huge flaws and isnt quite what you thought it was. please keep coming to church
( AND PAYING US MONEY) because we try really hard and we have all these church buildings, it would be a shame for them to go to waste, it would be a shame to make us go out of business now over some niggling details! after all the good we have done and after we have been around this long, let us keep going!

and my response to them will be the response they have always had for my efforts: gee you should have been able to do a little ( AS IN A LOT) better.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUYWqVvUZWQ