Taken from the homepage of MormonThink.com

Deseret News article: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765561793/New-MormonVoices-website-is-positive-LDS-voice.html

A Deseret News Article by FAIR claims they want to correct the inaccuracies of Mormonism that are appearing in articles which are becoming more prevalent on the web. MormonThink supports this idea but we have different ideas of what this means.

The LDS organization FAIR (Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research) is making an organized effort to ensure that faith-promoting comments about the LDS church will drown out all other comments that are critical of the LDS church, regardless of whether or not they are true.

The article written by Mormon apologist Daniel Peterson, discusses his strategy of keeping people from learning the real hidden truths of Mormonism by trying to dominate the comment sections of Internet articles that discuss Mormonism. He claims they only want to correct misinformation. We at MormonThink totally agree with correcting misinformation and support a similar strategy by the MoreTruthFoundation started last year.

We agree that if someone says that Mormons don’t believe in Christ or are not Christian, we should correct that. Of course Mormons are Christian, although we have beliefs not shared by most other Christian churches such as the belief in the Book of Mormon as scripture.

HOWEVER, the problem is that FAIR wants to sugarcoat the answers and still keep the disturbing details of the church secret from the public. For example, go to their website called MormonVoices mentioned in the article. They discuss some of the issues so you can use information from their one-sided, incomplete, carefully-scripted commentary on selected issues that only support the church, even if they don’t really tell the true, complete story.

For example, look at their section on race. They do accurately provide recent statements that the modern Mormon church denounces racism. However, they don’t really address the concerns of those commenters that want to know why the blacks were denied the priesthood and the opportunity to have black families sealed in the LDS temples all the way up till 1978. Why on earth couldn’t a righteous black family be sealed to each other until 1978? Their site doesn’t even address that question, nor attempt to answer it.

The Mormonvoices site also totally disavows the belief that the ‘skin of blackness’ was a curse. They actually suggest the mark of Cain could have been a ‘tattoo’. This is total nonsense as shown by the Book of Mormon scriptures themselves:

2 Nephi 5: 21
And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

And then when the Lamanites repented their cursed black skin became white again:

3 Nephi 2:15
And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites."

So how could a tattoo be the curse? This is sheer nonsense because FAIR doesn’t want nonmembers to know the details of how the Book of Mormon teaches that God cursed people with black skin when they were bad and made their skin white again when they were good.

The current LDS children’s book continues to promote this notion of equating dark-skin with a curse caused by wickedness:


“Laman and Lemuel’s followers called themselves Lamanites. They became a dark-skinned people. God cursed them because of their wickedness.”

How many other christian churches currently teach these racial attitudes to the children in their congregations?

And of course they don’t mention any of the racist quotes made by prophets and apostles of the church that equate dark skin with the curse:

John Taylor, President of the Church
"And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God;..." Journal of Discourses, Vol. 22, page 304

President Brigham Young
"If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain (those with dark skin), the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."

Apostle Mark E. Peterson
"If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the Celestial Kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory.“ sermon to BYU students, 1954

To see the real, full story on Blacks & the Priesthood. http://www.mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm

Of course FAIR would have you believe that the church leaders never said any of these things and many, many more. And every other issue they advise members on such as polygamy, Book of Mormon historicity, Book of Abraham, etc. has the same lack of detail which is what they want to promote to the world in an effort to keep the disturbing truths of Mormonism from nonmembers and members.

Another point to make is that FAIR is not endorsed by the LDS church, and everything they say is merely the opinions of average every day members that the church won’t officially support. So why isn’t the church providing answers to these questions that are popping up all over the Internet? Why won’t they officially endorse FAIR’s answers as correct? They won’t stand behind FAIR, however they will hide behind them. It appears they want FAIR to defend the church because if it backfires, they can always say “they weren’t officially speaking for the church”.

We at MormonThink support the MoreTruthFoundation’s plan to spread the real, non-sugarcoated facts about the church. We do not want any critics to ever lie on these comments boards or to make the church’s history seem worse than it is, but we encourage everyone to not be shy in telling the real truth about the church and answering in detail the questions commenters really have about the church and its past. Since the church and FAIR won't tell the people what they really want to know about the church, it's up to us to speak the absolute truth. More information can be found at How To Help. http://www.moretruthfoundation.com/howtohelp.html

Again we will state that FAIR will only give a one-sided argument of the church. They never link to any critic’s site so you can’t see the full arguments that the critics make, which are much, much stronger than what FAIR purports them to be. FAIR only wants you to look at their point of view. However, MormonThink has over 300 links to FAIR, FARMS and LDS.org, etc so anyone can see exactly what the pro-side of any argument is in their own words as well as links to the best critics' sites so you can see those arguments also. Only by reading each side, from their own sites, can everyone get a complete viewpoint on every issue so then they can decide for themselves what makes the most sense.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2012 03:30PM by SpongeBob SquareGarments.

+ infinity

Mormonthink.com

These guys put into print what I was able to conceptualize and process in my head based on all available info and they put it all into print. I love that site.

FAIR is dishonest at best and they definitely have an “un-approved by the church” agenda. They are modern day Flat Earth prophets. “Don’t walk over to the edge to check for yourself little sheep. We’ve already been there. Nothing but nice sharp square edges and besides you could fall off and nobody wants that! Your still safe thinking it’s all nice and flat. Now onto more important matters. What’s for dinner?”

The OP is the owner of Mormonthink.

I think he is appreciated more than he could ever realize. That single site has helped more people than can ever be counted.

That includes myself.

Thanks again SpongeBob!

However, there's a real risk to doing that, as apparently Dallin H. Oaks knows. He has reportedly been complaining lately that FAIR, et al, should back off and not be so aggressive in their obsessed apologietics for defending the Mormon church.

Why?

Reports have it that Oaks is concerned that it will simply focus more attention on controversial aspects of Mormon doctrine and history which would be better left alone.

All the attention does, you see, is prompt people to google Mormonism and get the inconvenient stuff the Mormon church doesn't want you know and doesn't teach you in Sunday School.

I suspect this will ultimately backfire on the Morg.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2012 08:50PM by steve benson.

They may not be affiliated, but they are one and the same.
Do you really think the church has no input or influence when it comes to this site?

I think they are having a pure fantasy if they think that a site full of half truths, lies and by omission is going to stand up to the scrutiny that exists in the internet world.

The click of a mouse gives you a whole different picture. They want to try and deceive convincingly enough that people won't look elsewhere. I think it will backfire on them. When people get online they usually don't click on just once source when they have a question. They surf the internet looking for a variety of information.

The fact that the church won't stand up for itself, and instead is depending on an "unaffiliated" outside source should speak volumes. It makes them look weak and shady. Why won't the church answer questions about itself? Where has all of the chest thumping and bravado gone? They refuse to answer to even the members. To me that's an announcement that they have something to hide.

I appreciate everything you and everyone else at MormonThink do. Let's correct misinformation with facts, not by shouting louder than the other guys.

You to can spam for the Lard! Gawd I so want to post that to my FB page...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2012 03:23PM by reasonabledoubt.

What cracks me up about this is, Daniel Peterson gets his ass handed to him each time he posts in the comments at real news outlets.

His style is to refer readers to the lds scholars testify website and hope authority sways nonmormons as it does members.

Its surprising that TSSC doesn't excommunicate all the FAIR people, since they are preaching "false" doctrine, unless, of course, they are doing just what the TSSC is telling them to do.. Hmmm

They're going to give cult members links to open discussions about the cult. I don't see a good outcome for the Morg here.

Inquiring minds want to know, however, why he's taken to signing things "Dan Peterson."

I think perhaps having to face "Denial C." too many times forced him to forego the sacred middle initial...

FAIR's mantras over the years have included "There were, too, horses in recent pre-Columbian North America," in addition to "DNA becomes diluted and changed over time," plus "steel swords were really made of obsidian," and garsh knows what else.

And FAIR still trumpets, "Have faith folks, the next archaeological find in Mesoamerica will silence our critics once and for all."

Dear Danny Boy,
We're not criticizing the LDS Church, we're only criticizing its lies. Is there anything wrong with criticzing lies? I mean, it's really just a variation on the "hate the sin, love the sinner" isn't it?

Wait, FAIR actually uses the word Apologetic in their long name? Do they not realize the negative connotation that word carries on itself? They are practically admitting in their name that the church is wrong, and that they are going to make excuses for it.

I understand, but the word does seem to carry a negative context in modern usage, doesn't it?

_I_ sure think so, and while my mom will say it means "to defend", she won't read the sites either!

Hey, WCG. Well spoke, as usual.

Glad to know you're still connected - wish I could stop by for a visit & see your new kitchen!

Don't be surprised if I do, but don't hold your breath, either.

:)

I mean, do they actually believe they will get a positive image when they all turn up on command with the same pre-formulated responses?

Looks like the perfect way to demonstrate that they truly are brainwashed cult members.

Of course, no webmaster will ever know what's going on or what to use those nifty "ban" and "block" tools for. Mormons are so internet-savvy...

I was reading this article:
Mormons do not teach or excuse dishonesty
http://mormonvoices.org/656/dishonesty

I came across this paragraph:
A good example of this is the strange “fact” that Mormons expect to become “gods of their own planets.” This takes a truth–Mormons believe, with ancient Christians, in theosis and eternal progression–and extrapolates a bizarre statement that does not accurately express what most Mormons believe. Many other sensationalized “facts” are repeated often, but that doesn’t make them true, or make Mormon denials dishonest.

It's not the part about us becoming gods of our planets that struck me funny -- it was the way the author appeals to "what most Mormons believe".

Compare with:
Hemispheric geography theory (HGT)—The Hemispheric Geography Theory (or HGT) is the traditional understanding of the Book of Mormon. It postulates that the events in the book took place over North and South America, with the Isthmus of Panama as the narrow neck of land.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Models/Hemispheric
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/02/book-of-mormon-geography-in-joseph-smiths-day/

On the one hand it's totally okay with the apologists to compare some oddity of Mormon belief (such as Jesus visiting *some* part of America) against what most Mormons believe as if the majority opinion is the standard of truth.

On the other hand they spend a heck of a lot of time arguing that the majority of Mormons have been wrong on things like hemispheric Book of Mormon model starting with Joseph Smith himself and that their new shiny minority opinion, cobbled together from Jakeman, Nibbler and Sorenson is the Real standard of truth. Hey, whatever keeps the Church in power....

I see a trend.

All religions have a gap between orthodoxy and practice. What people are told officially what Catholics believe, for example, is not exactly what Catholics actually believe in Bali, Portugal, India, Africa, etc.

In fact, each culture has its own interpretation, no matter how many encyclicals are produced. A perfect example of this is birth control. The official position is not what most Catholics believe.

Mormons are exploiting this, going a step further to say that what the Mormon members believe IS DOCTRINE, not what the leaders say. We exmormons know that is a complete misrepresentation, implying a form of democracy to the least democratic church in existence except maybe Islam.

Mormons have been warned time and again not to do their own thinking but to believe and obey the Brethren.

Honestly, they make it too easy. They are making themselves ridiculous.

Anagrammy

Gee, wouldn’t you think that the supposed “spiritual” and “official” leaders of the Church would step forward into the limelight to expound on what exactly the Church’s “doctrine” and “beliefs” are and explain the Church’s less than delightsome doctrinal positions of its past ?

Instead, they hide in the shadows and allow FAIRS and other self-appointed defenders of the faith the dirty task of trying to prop up the slippery wiggly jello like doctrine of the Mormon faith. The efforts of these groups carry no “official” endorsement and do nothing but muddy the waters but leave the Church with one advantage - plausible deniability.

The Church takes no risk and can conveniently deny anything they say and that it does not represent the official position of the Church. They can throw them under the proverbial bus at anytime should they prove to be a public embarrassment similar to the good professor Randy Bott.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2012 07:39PM by davesnothere.

yup.

and WE ALL know where to begin....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2012 09:15PM by guynoirprivateeye.

You ever notice how almost all of the FAIR explanations are so LONG? It's just endless scrolling... Page after page of convoluted drivel.

That's one of the things that convinced me they are making it all up -- since when is the truth so difficult to explain?

I think they are hoping people will just say, "whoah, if they have all this information then they must know what they are talking about." But, for me, it has the opposite effect.

Ya know, you are right. Even some of the "anti" Mormon stuff is long (mostly because they have to refute all the ridiculous and ever changing apologists' theories), but it doesn't have the same chloroform affect as the FAIR stuff. I read it and it makes sense. Period.

Whereas, the fair stuff goes round and round, brings up stuff that is barely related (to confuse people), and by the end of it, I have a headache.

The best way to read FAIR stuff is to summarize each sentence, in writing, as simply and plainly as you can. Mormons too like plain things, yes? With the gist of each sentence distilled, you easily see the BS effect in action. Try it. It's fun!

Your mission, should you decide to except it, is it overwhelm the Internet with pro-Mormon comments. As always, should you or any of your FAIR force be caught lying or disavowing previous teachings, The Church will disavow any knowledge of your actions. Good luck, Danny. This tape will self-destruct in five seconds.

I think as ex-Mos, we will go the furthest with the Most Clear examples of ChurchCo lies, as opposed to ones we may be emotionally connected with.

TSCC knows how to TapDance around most anything, it's their Bread & Butter.

Book of Abraham, anyone? Kolob getting its energy/light from Kolob?

BYs racism, "the prophet can't lead the church astray"
(What's the point of "Speaking as a man"?)

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough”

Albert Einstein