The truth is, I have had the occasional drink for a while now, and drink coffee everyday at work, but I do so without my wife's knowledge. I do it behind her back because I believe that telling her will be a major setback in my ultimate goal of taking her out of the Morg. She is upset and angry enough that I no longer believe, but it doesn't seem to have occured to her yet (or she is just supressing it) that if I no longer believe, I no longer have reason to follow their commandments; I still wear my garments, for example, at least at home.

This is all part of my "go slow" strategy. I want to save my marriage and ultimately leave together as a family. But I hate being deceitful, and if she ever found out that I was being dishonest with her it would bad consequences. Also, I don't know how tolerent she will be of my WoW violations, even with me no longer believing it is a commandment from God. She still believes, and almost certainly believes she has a right to request (demand) - as my wife - that I don't do it. But does she have that right?

Do I tell her sooner rather than later, stop lying, and pick up the pieces wherever they lay? Or does my go slow strategy demand that I keep it secret and carry on lying, for the sake of my marriage and family?

I wish I would have never told my DH about my WOW "violations". It brought too many problems into our marriage.

Do you feel the need to tell her every time you drink a Gatorade or a soda? Probably not. If you're doing it in private, no need to tell her.


As for your garments - you should ditch those NOW! If you stop wearing them she will the know that you are serious about
Leaving the church and not think that it's a "phase".

If you want to keep your marriage, keep the WoW.

We criticize TBM spouses for "putting the church before the marriage."

It's even worse to put a cup of coffee before the marriage.

(Spoken from experience!)

Everybody is different, but I wouldn't drink without her.

Mormonism is a cult. All of the little, controlling rules are there for a reason - If you control the body, you can control the mind. That's why topics such as morality, modesty, and the WoW are preached way too frequently, especially when compared to things that SHOULD be preached in Christ's true church. Because these topics are preached so much they take a high priority in the members' minds and often take precedence over other commandments. Many members believe that the WoW is right up there with adultery.

Another cult tactic is fear indoctrination. Members are indoctrinated that once people apostatize they will become adulterers, drinkers, and the dregs of society (i.e., Joseph Smith). Drinking will reinforce to her that you are going down that path and it will terrify her that you will also begin committing adultery and you'll be a hobo because you'll be nothing but an Alcoholic/Gambler/pedophile.

My recommendations, for what they're worth, are to not drink. My wife and I had many discussions about this topic. When discussing my apostasy she asked if I was going to start drinking and I told her that I wasn't going to do it without her. She said that she would never drink and I told her that I would never drink either. After a few years she could see that I was still a very good husband, father, and citizen even though I was apostate. Her cog dis shelf began to break because of this and is now happily apostate with me (after 8 years). We shared our first alcoholic beverage back in December. We tried to enjoy drinking, but have already given it up because it tastes like crap.

Also, instead of coffee, try energy drinks. They're in a grey area because the church won't take an official stand on them. I always thought it was funny that coffee is the devil, but it's okay to drink a RockStar. They always make me jittery, a little nauseous, sometimes have visual disturbances, and often crashed after it's effects wore off. Coffee on the other hand is quite benign and is even healthy. There is a high correlation between daily coffee drinkers with a low risk of parkinson's, dementia, and even diabetes, I believe. Unfortunately for LD$inc, they have doubled down on their sacred science, even though there are few health benefits from it (aside from abstaining from tobacco).

I used to drink energy drinks all the time, but one of the main reasons I switched to coffee was to fit in at work. Drinking coffee is socially acceptable, drinking energy drinks at your desk is not only unhealthy (even sugar free) but looks ridiculous in our office culture here in the UK. I used to get teased all the time and even though they never knew I was Mormon (hardly anybody is here), they still knew I was "different". I stopped drinking energy drinks and switched to popping pro-plus caffeine pills privately before I started drinking coffee. I hate being different or "peculiar"; it is the single biggest reason I have never been happy with TSCC, even when I still believed.

but this nevermo's mind is reeling.

"what if my wife finds out I drink coffee?"

Just to put in a little world-wide perspective.



freeman is certainly an ironic moniker.



we're normal. pay no attention to the ferret.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2012 04:17PM by freeman.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2012 04:16PM by freeman.

# 1 in general, I think open honest communication is best, but not always possible.

#2 it always drove me nuts that the WOW was don't drink alcohol,coffee, tea and don't smoke but totally ignored the other advice. I'd be a tad resentful if my spouse hung me out for drinking but could not adequately explain why in verse 5 strong drink gets shut down but historically JS and BY were still distilling/selling/drinking after this. Why is vs 8 we don't have some tobacco in the first aid kit for potential bruises that come along. We should be prepared! Hold it! Wait for that hot chocolate, hot jello or herbal tea to cool down! Vs 9 forbids ALL hot drinks! Vs 11 - Why are we eating tomatoes now? They are probably not in season now (I'm assuming you don't live in the tropics and I'd need some prophetic advice if changing the seasons in a hot house is ok - I mean that is messing with god's plan!) VS 13 - Chicken for dinner? It is officially spring... is it cold? is it a time of famine? If so, don't eat a whole breast...eat it sparingly! Vs 14 - hope you are having no problem rotating that food storage. You should be eating boiled wheat for breakfast, whole wheat bread for lunch and gluten patties for dinner. Who cares if you have celiac disease...god will protect you! And what the hell? vs 17 with the mild drinks of barley and grain...we were eating meat and it was not a time of famine. I think I could creatively justify a few things here...distill some vodka at 40% is certainly milder than everclear at 95%... your basic beer vs IPA?

#3 - I agree with others that if you value your marriage, which you appear to do, a cup of coffee is not worth it. In my experience, I want to have open honest communication. I'd like to know that my spouse understands my concerns and tries to address them if they can. At the same time, I expect to be able to make my own decisions and not be told what I can and can't do. That feeling has really blossomed since leaving TSSC. I'll admit I'm a bit over the line on "Don't tell me what to do!"

I think some rational thinking and honest discussion has to be done. Do we believe and follow the whole WOW or not? Do pick and choose parts? What parts can you really stand behind and what parts can you give up control? Are there some "ground rules" that would make you feel more comfortable? What are you afraid of? What do you think you will gain by controlling me?

Tell her now.

-IF- drinking a cocktail and coffee every now and then is a deal breaker for her, as petty as that is, then the sooner the better..

I make no claim of having handled this very well, but I just went out and bought coffee equipment and brewed it. She already knew how I feel about the church. I suppose in my mind I was thinking that if she was going to put a cult before her marraige and was willing to throw away her family over a handful of beans then I didn't want her anyway. Fortunately her reaction was to buy me a French press and a whip cream compressor. I didn't handle that well but it worked out.

I did it by going very slow. Start with green tea. Slowly educate her on the health benefits of green tea. "Wow, look here honey, it says that green tea is good for losing weight, etc....., it prevents cancer, diabetes, prostate cancer...hmm my dad had prostate cancer, I don't want to be like him, etc.etc....etc." I did this for quite awhile and then started drinking green tea.
Told her it was for the health benefits, and eventually she started drinking it too. Then, you move on to coffee, same approach. "Wow, honey, another study on the benefits of coffee for women. Lowers your risk for diabetes by 50%. Didn't your mom die from complications of diabetes? Etc."

It has taken years but DW is now okay with tea, coffee and moderate drinking.

I'm in a similar situation to you...a little further down the path. My wife knows I drink coffee occasionally (bothered her some), I dumped my garments 6 months ago (she was quite upset), I quit going to church a year ago (upset some in front of me, very negative and upset behind my back)...you get the idea.

Here's your fundamental problem - she has the truth. Of course, that's in her mind. In the LDS church, there is right and wrong. There is member and non-member. They have the truth (right) and everyone else is wrong. Any action you take contrary to what the church mandates as right is therefore wrong/evil.

Something as simple as stopping at McDonald's for food on a Sunday caused a lot of tension at home because I was 'corrupting our son'. Amazing.

This wrong/right mentality leads to control. The church and your wife will want to control your thoughts and behavior. After all, the church is true and you must do everything in order to make it to the celestial kingdom. Everything. You will be asked to compromise, the church will not. After all, they are true and right.

In the end, it's up to you. I have found that laying it on the line and saying what I think and feel is completely freeing. I 'stuffed it' for years. I recommend not doing that. Life is too short to live under a set of conditions that you don't agree with. The freedom and happiness I've experienced has been amazing. More than any spirit I could ever feel at church. Not even close!

I would stop lying. Own your life and your choices. Your wife may understand, she may not. But be yourself. Trying to be someone you are not is a miserable experience. Trust me, I've tried it.

I'm sending in my resignation this week. Breaking the bondage of this church is an incredibly freeing experience.

When I started "going off the rails" it was after a prolonged period of working on our relationship. We were in a very good place and my husband had reconciled himself to the idea of having a nonbelieving wife that he loved more than the church. I knew at that point that we were going to get through it, so I introduced a few changes. It was rough, but he got over it. Two years later, he was out too.

If you want your marriage to last, make sure you leave no doubt in your wife's mind that you are committed to it. I'm not saying that you should live a Mormon lifestyle, I'm saying she has got to know in a way that transcends her experience with the church, that you want to be with her, so that when you start introducing changes that would signal the destruction of the idealized forever family to the typical Mormon, she knows that you're still in it with and for HER, just not the church.

Go slow, and talk it out as you go. Keep her in the loop and do other things to make sure she can feel secure. This is not a time to rip off the bandaid, however liberating and tempting that might be.

I say this as someone who has been through it successfully. If we ever divorce, it won't have anything to do with the church.

I have no idea the best way to approach it.

Personally, I would say something to the effect that since I no longer believe in LDS doctrine, I don't have any reason to subject myself to their rules. I still hold my marraige as sacred to me, so from my perspective drinking coffee wouldn't be an attack on the marraige.

I'd tell my wife how much I love her and that arbitrary rules from an outside entity don't apply to our marraige.

She might not feel the same way though.

But I'm lucky. My wife isn't Mormon.

Does you wife know that Joseph Smith and the other church leaders drank alcohol, coffee, smoked etc? Joseph Smith even had a bar and Brigham Young had distilleries.

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech18.htm

If not, then maybe you should try to share with her this so that she realizes a) the church has not always followed the Word of Wisdom like they do today (it didn't become hard commandment like until the 1900's) and b) if Joseph Smith and other early church leaders participated in it then it can't THAT bad.

I'd still let some time pass before you let her know you do the same, so she doesn't think you are just trying to make an excuse for your indulgences.

I told my wife I drink coffee. If you dont like it lump it.
She retreated!!!

List some of the most important outward signs of departure from Mormonism. If she already knows you are doubting, have her rank them from "that's a nothing" to "file for divorce the next day." Then gradually work down the list, keeping in mind that things will change on the way.

If your relationship is solid enough to deal with such hypotheticals, it might be a nice opener for conversation. Especially if you say "I picked this up off the internet."

Thanks for the good advice, all.

I think perhaps I am not quite ready to tell her, and when I do I will go slow and refrain from telling her I already do these things. Some lies are worth it, for the greater good. But at the same time, I am not prepared to quit doing perfectly normal things just because she believes differently to me.

Is my marriage worth more to me than a cup of coffee? Yes, but ultimately do I want to be married to somebody who doesn't "let me" drink a perfectly normal healthy drink? In the end, I will tell her and she can decide. I can't live the rest of my life - the only one I will ever have - not being true to myself.

She married someone she thought shared her values, no matter how misguided they are in retrospect. Learning that you no longer share many of those values is going to take some adjustment. She needs to know and be reassured that you still share many of the values that you did when you went into the marriage, ie fidelity, honesty, etc.
Drinking alcohol, esp behind her back, may make her doubt your commitment to other values she once thought you held dear.
Try to put yourself in her shoes.
She is afraid of so much right now and what she needs is reassurance. Is holding off on abandoning the WOW really worth what that will do to her faith in you and your commitment to her in the long run?
I think that loving her is also about taking her reality and her expectations going into the marriage into consideration. In her mind, you are the one who has broken the agreement and she is probably doubting your commitment to her.
Once she opens her eyes to the fact that the church is the one who has broken the deal, she will understand that expecting you to adhere to its silly rules is absurd.
Until then, however, you will need to deal with her based on her reality and help her understand that your commitment to her and the relationship has not changed. This may entail making some small compromises while she adjusts and comes to trust that your abandonment of her religion is not an abandonment of her.

Do you feel you're deceiving your wife by drinking coffee at work? If she were to find out accidentally (smelling it on your breath or spilled on your shirt, maybe) would she feel deceived?

Were I she, I would be more distressed by the deception than by the caffeine. Were I you, I would either stop drinking it or tell her.

As for the office environment, I never acquired a taste for coffee, but I always took my turn to make it. If anyone asked why I didn't drink it, I just said I didn't like the taste.

Good luck in your dilemma.

We had the talk in which I said, "You know, I'm no longer Mormon and so I no longer believe in the Word of Wisdom." She said glumly, "Well, I guess you're free to change your behavior over that." I began drinking coffee openly, and bought the usual peraphernalia--coffee beans, grinder, etc. She just accepts it.

2010 was supposed to be my year of drinking wine and beer openly. My sons supported me in it, because they do it. I never got the balls for it. But I do drink wine or beer when I'm out with them or with friends, I drink it openly in front of other Mormon friends, and always drink beer when I jam with friends. I still have to get the nerve to start at home.

If you really hate Mormonism, why don't you stop acting Mormon.

Stop "lying for the Lord" for example, because that form of unethical behavior--lying to your wife for her own good is the real danger to your marriage. It is an erosion of trust. She will eventually figure out that you "probably" have been drinking/smoking/? ever since you told her you no longer believe and you kept it from her.

This weakens the marital bond. You can have your needs met by being honest and non-passive aggressive. Please consider having this conversation:

"Honey, there are some areas that we need to adjust as we move forward with my new view about Mormonism. (make appointment to be uninterrupted if necessary). Every religion has symbols which display and reinforce their beliefs. Catholics have crucifixes everywhere and Mormons don't use the cross in any form. It's one symbol--there really is nothing intrinsically right or wrong about crosses. That really doesn't effect our family but there are some Mormon symbols that make me uncomfortable. One is refraining from drinking coffee. Now that science has come out with study after study showing preventative health benefits for people, can we agree that this practice is symbolic?

(Yes, I guess so)

I always want to tell you the truth and be straight with each other--it has bothered me that have been drinking coffee at work and not telling you. Would you be offended if I continue. I enjoy drinking it and want to continue, but I want you to know--can you be ok with coffee?

(Her reaction) This could be anything from bursting into tears to "no big deal--it's your salvation." If she asks for facts, have them ready, but in an offhand way. She may ask, "what would you do if I said no" --which is very defensive and passive aggressive but hey, the church taught her that, so don't blame her. Your answer is straight truth, with love: "I would take your feelings into consideration, definitely."

Being honest and straight is non-Mormon and new to you, so give yourself plenty of room to practice until honesty becomes a habit. PICK YOUR BATTLES. The conversation above can be had around the subject of garments, for example, as your first declaration of independence.

The purpose here is to save the marriage while you transition into who you always were underneath the brainwashing. Out of love for your spouse, who is wary of these changes, having been told you will become a degenerate porn-watching drug-dealing prostitute-having criminal throwing spit wads at truth from the Dark Side.... you have to have some patience.

It is hard to be patient when you are angry and realize that you have given a sh*tload of time and money to a bunch of charlatans. I hear that and totally understand. You may not be able to stop being Mormon quickly--you may not be able to be patient enough to wait for her to join you in each transition, but this is the way it is done successfully.

People are ok with this because their need for autonomy is stoked by the idea that they a) are being genuine, and b)are in control of what they do and they are choosing to care about honesty in their marriage.

Whatever you decide, I wish you the best!

Anagrammy

Where did we learn we have to tell everything? I have all sorts of little things I do without telling on myself. Why should I have to put my spouse in the position where they have to judge me? That doesn't feel good for them. I have no issue with just keeping harmless things quiet whatsoever. I even know secrets about his family members he has no clue about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2012 05:53PM by suckafoo.

I love the varied and contradictory advice I get here :)

Usually when we ask people for advice, we already have an idea in mind of what we're going to do, and are looking for validation. This is no exception. The comments above that I most like are those that back up my own thoughts. But those who have offered alternative points of view have actually made me think a little, which can never be a bad thing.

I probably will do what I had planned to do anyway, but I will be more thoughtful about how it might impact on my life and our marriage.