I'm a non member going to school at BYU. The way that I got here had a lot to do with a mormon girl I was dating in high school. She wasn't the reason I came, but I wouldn't have even applied if not for her family.

She was a bit younger than me so she just started school here this semester. She spent the last two years trying to convert me but I never really told her all of the factual reasons I couldn't join. Now she doesn't want to talk anymore because she is starting to have too strong of feelings for me and "knows" she needs to be with a worthy priesthood holder / RM.

I know she is a very smart girl, and I really don't want to just let her go because of this religion.

So do you guys think there is any way that I could convince her that it isn't true? Or even that there is a chance it could be wrong? I would love to know some of the things that caused all of you to fall away from the church.

-Thanks!

Not unless the TBM is experiencing doubts and dissatisfaction.

The disaffection with the church has to come from within.

Your only advantage is being non mormon you can innocently ask questions about things she does not know and as long as you keep it simple and have a fact substantiated source, you might spark some thought. Joseph Smith being married to women who are already married is a pretty good one.

I hope you find a really nice girl who loves you more than anything else, including religion.

One simple question to ask: If the church is not what it claims to be, would you want to know?

That answer will tell you everything.

Do you really want BYU on your resume? All future employers will assume you are mormon - you need to decide if that is a good or bad thing.

One thing you have to realize is what you are asking her to risk giving up to even consider rethinking her beliefs.

1) It is very difficult to give up what you believe and what you have believed your whole life.

2) It is very difficult to consider that your sense of heaven, morality, etc. is not what you think it was.

3) It is very difficult to go down the path of believing differently than your family and to risk being an outsider to them.

4) It is very difficult to go against your peer group - and she probably has a very strong Mormon support group.

You would have to work through those barriers and many more before you could even get to the point where she is going to be able to truly consider any evidence and information. The factual reasons is the tip of the iceberg for her. If she's willing to look at the information it can't hurt, but presenting the information and evidence in a convincing way isn't going to solve your problem.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2012 10:15AM by ronas.

+1 What a great layout of the land--or should I say land mines.

You'd almost think I've been through this with my wife or something, wouldn't you? :)

I'm sure GF and her family are hoping to convert you. You going to BYU has given them lots of hope and is a mixed signal. Somehow, you both have to work past trying or hoping to change each other.

I'm going to second pretty much everything that has been said so far. Mormonism takes a real hold on a person's brain, especially if they have been raised in the church. There has to be something to break that hold. Either the person has to be burned out, or the person has to be away for it for a while, or the person has to have secretly doubted or something dramatic has to make them realize Mormonism can't provide what they promise. Once that crack has appeared in their armor, you might be able to slip some info into them but not in a confrontational way. You have to ask questions, not relay concerns. Stuff that makes them want to research and question themselves. Leaving has to come entirely from the person themselves - they have to open the door and they have to walk through it.

Finally, what ronas said is very true. It's hard to change what you've believed all your life if you haven't been exposed to a lot of better alternatives. It's hard to go against your parents and friends and restart your whole life. A lot of people don't really believe in Mormonism but play along because they don't know anything different and they haven't seen that life can be better outside the church and they aren't strong enough to leave all their friends and family. The people who have the best chance of leaving, IMO, are people who had a more varied life, have strong friends outside the religion, who have somewhere to go if they leave, have an unusually understanding family or, I hate to say, are just desperate to get away. So desperate that they are willing to and strong enough to take a huge leap of faith into the unknown.

I would simply ask her if she would be willing to listen to your views about why you can't believe so she might understand how YOU have reached the decision for you. Do this face to face and not in a way to convince her but to share with her what you know. Be empathetic to her immediate defense (im certain she will take). We are all her if you OR her have questions. If she has any doubt, it will peak her interest. :-)I please keep us informed

Thank you! I think I am definitely going to have a talk with her, just because it will clear my own head.

I feel like I at least need to try having a completely open talk about religion with her.

In the past, I have avoided it because the moment it seems like I am criticizing the church at all, she gets really upset. I'm not sure why because for me, I love to laugh about my own lack of religion and am comfortable when people criticize it.

Anyways, hopefully it all goes better than I'm expecting

Well crap. Haha, I kinda knew that it was hard but I was hoping you guys thought there would be a way to get her to listen for a bit or something.

I probably should just give up on it all, its just a bit depressing.

And for the couple questions, if it were me, I would definitely want to know. But I get how hard it is to look past your own view on how reality is.

I just have a hard time understanding how Mormons can be shown factual evidence and completely deny it.

I was got into a conversation about evolution with a group of friends here and I was amazed when not a single one of them believed it, and despite the huge amount of evidence for it simply denied it because they "felt" something different.

You can never argue a mormon out of their feelings. If they have been members their whole lives they have a lot of "proof" it is true through "feelings". For people in the real world they see it has human emotion,conscience, or luck but in the mormon world it is respectively the spirit (chills), the Holy Ghost (conscience) and blessings (luck/fortune). I think many times mormons do question the religion especially when it has to do with something very trivial or the amount of free labor they are putting into it all but then dag nam it-all they have to do is draw a memory from the "feeling well" and that is confirmation enough. If you feel like you have nothing to lose show her the temple video from big love on you tube and have her ask her parents if certain aspects were true. When I first went through the temple I was shocked because I had been taught my whole life that we were not a cult and that we except for the sacrament prayers, we did not believe in rituals or recited prayer then there they were in the temple...the only feelings I got from the temple were creepy vibes no spirit to be found. :)

You are fighting human nature, not just Mormons. The majority of the people in the world believe in a religion (which is any religion) which is no more true or rational than Mormonism. The majority of humanity clings just as stubbornly to their irrational religious beliefs.

However, there are rational reasons explaining clinging to these religious and other beliefs understanding evolution. Confirmation bias. The need to belong. etc. I like this article: http://www.michaelshermer.com/weird-things/excerpt/

Your "girlfriend" has already shown that she is unwilling to listen objectively to your issues with the church by getting angry in the past. She clearly isn't going to listen now where she has essentially already "broken up" with you. The most you can hope to accomplish by having this discussion with her is to get in a big fight clarifying the relationship is over, helping you both move on.

BYU may not be your best bet for finding another girlfriend.

Although there is that new poster "ymountain" that is also going to BYU.... :)

I know you're right. Pretty frustrating though haha. It probably is just time for me to move on, but I'm not exactly in the best geographical location for it.

Like you said, BYU isn't the best place for me to find a girlfriend.

Anyways, thanks for the advice and article. I may just talk with her anyways so that we can both see it is really over. And then possibly down the road she will get around to thinking about some of the stuff I have issues with.

I think you would be foolish NOT to talk to her. Just don't go in expecting you will have some magic solution to change her mind. Possibly go in with an understanding of why it virtually impossible for her to listen to what you have to say rationally - you would have to find a way to do it that does not make her feel attacked or defensive in any way - very very difficult.

Certainly it's a good sign that she would date a non-member and that you would be willing to go to BYU.

However, you both need some lengthy and detailed conversations. You both need to decide (preferably sooner rather than later) if religion is a deal-breaker for either of you.

From the original post:

>>>Now she doesn't want to talk anymore because she is starting to have too strong of feelings for me and "knows" she needs to be with a worthy priesthood holder / RM.

She's already told him that religion is a deal breaker and that the deal is broken.

No. Really. She may be amazing, but mostly these situations don't turn out well. You can't claim to love someone and then want to change something so fundamental about them.

Even IF she ever left, she would have an incredible amount of baggage to work through. That took me YEARS when I left. When she was done, she might be completely different.

I think the best rule of thumb when looking for a relationship is to pick someone who you want JUST AS THEY ARE.

No fixer upper projects. No rescues.


It's fine to help people leave cults, if you can (and usually you can't, but read Steven Hassan's website and books if you want expert advice about this).

But for your life companion, pick someone who has their life figured out, already.

+1

imaworkinonit has extensive experience and high intelligence.
When she speaks people should listen.

I think it would be very hard to convince her otherwise while she is at BYU. I know that I was a very different person going into BYU than I was coming out. The problem you face is that BYU has a way of making mormonism seem "normal". I spent many years thinking I was not "one of them" because there was always someone more "extreme mormon" than me. It was not until I left that i realized how mormon I really was. They make you slowly adapt so that you don't even know it is happening. At first you start out with small compromises oh no boys in room okay. New wardrobe-sure. A few religion classes-just a hoop to jump through right? So sure, I never joined the "only marry an elder's quorum president" group but I definitely believed more than anything in the eternal families. As a young woman I never would have thought to leave the church it would have been too devastating to my parents. Also, BYU has a way of turning the guilt-o-meter into the red zone for young women. You have probably already noticed this with her questioning dating a "non priesthood holder". It is sad because I have known many women who abandoned the "better man" because they found a worthy "priesthood holder" because the church at one time promised us that if both man and woman were worthy they could make it work.
Best of luck to you because you sound like a great guy and everyone deserves to be happy. If you are lucky she will see the light and find happiness being out with you. If not, you are probably best to move on because both of you will just have guilt and issues from not heading the mormon "advice".

The only way to get a Mormon to even listen to you is if they're ready to hear the truth. If they're not ready to listen, they won't even hear what you say and will call everything lies, even when presented with facts straight from the Church's own websites.

They're completely like, 'Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, I can't hear you!" with their fingers in their ears.

You probably can't get her to listen to anything, but you might be able to at least plant a few seeds which may germinate someday, by asking her questions which make her have to think about how weird Mormonism can be.

Maybe a statement something like, "One thing I don't understand about Mormonism is why they still think that the Native Americans were once Hebrew, when DNA has clearly indicated that they're more Siberian really."

Great advice!

In my opinion, and from experience, when I have spoken with my TBMs, instead of telling them I want them to know this stuff, I just tell them that I respect their religious views and I understand why they believe those things but I would like them to give me the same respect and listen to why I no long do so they might understand where I am coming from and how ive come to my conclusion. They always listen and very intently! Its planted many seeds and one even admitted she has doubted for a long time.I haven't talked to many bit some have come back later with questions. So I know it gets their wheels turning.

Either she renounces Mormonism or you become Mormon. The chances of either one happening are probably about the same.

Here is the thing:

When your a mormon, the only list you write is the "pros" list of the church and never the cons. Why? because they teach that if you do that you may fall away. What a great way to instill fear, right? (btw, i always claim that faith=God, fear=Satan.) Run away from people who instill fear in your heart (like the church.) So, if the mormon church is true, then her leaders should have no problem with her looking into anti-mormon literature or the facts of Joseph Smith and the church history! BECAUSE IF IT WAS THE TRUTH THEY WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR OR HIDE FROM PEOPLE WHO LOOK AT THE CONS! The truth always prevails. No matter how much evil will try, God always wins. HE'S GOD. I would encourage her to do her research. After all, its foolish to be bias with your knowledge, and for a young woman going to college she should know to do her research and see the pros and cons of each matter. She has to be true to herself, because if she cant even do that then what makes you think she will be true to you?

If you want to plant some seeds,
I would tell her that you have (because of her)done your homework, but ran across some things your wondering what the mormon perspective is.
You know,
questions about JS and his deeds
The book of Abraham ....thats a big deal for a lot of people
and anything else you can come up with. You most likely will get the standard conversation stopping replies, but she may go home and do a little research.
That's probably as good as it will get.

All I can do is give you my personal experience as a never-mo. I'm 19, and up until last week I had been dating a TBM since we were both 16. He tried to convert me, for sure, but for the past 7 or so months he came to the conclusion he didn't care if I wasnt Mormon or not, he just wanted to be with me. He was head over heels! I was typically the hesitant about talking about marriage one because we were so young, but my wildest dreams were to one day marry the guy (assuming he continued to support my faith the way I tried to respect his. Hard to respect Mormonism!). We were honestly the greatest friends. Always laughing, starry eyed in love an all that cliche. Then his brother comes home and he gets all inspired to be the best Mormon ever. He meets with his bishop and tells him some of our more personal experiences together (all that he initiated, I never pushed affection upon him) and he is told he can't serve a mission until he is 20. A week later after the bishop and SP pray about it, he was kicked out of school at BYU. He worked so hard to save up the money! Three jobs for almost a year to make the tuition. We were both devastated, for many different reasons. Two weeks after he's sent home, he decides he doesnt want to be with me any more. He says, "I want to get married. In the temple. With the woman that I love, forever. So I don't have to worry about being split up [not getting into the CK]"

It came out of no where. I posted on here often asking for advice an a lot of people told me to run and find a guy who didn't have to 'wonder' if I'd get into heaven. I'll never regret being with Tanner because before the cult sucked him in entirely we were SO good together, but I wish I had taken the advice to cut my losses and walk away a long time ago. It would have saved me a lot f heartache that I'm going through right now. The guy I loved is sort of dead to me! He no longer exists, in a way! He is swallowed up by TSCC.

Im not trying to predict the future and tell you how it's going to work out with you and her, because i hated it when people did that to me on here, but PLEASE think long and hard about the path you're heading down. You seem like a smart guy and I'd hate for you or anyone to have to go through what I did and what a lot of people on this board have been through.

Let us know how things turn out and I wish you the best of luck!

If you want to talk to someone your age, a never-mo who was in your situation up until recently, I would be more than happy to chat! It always feels good to know you're not the only one who's been through this. Feel free to shoot me an e-mail!

ladolchevitax@gmail.com

PS sorry for the choppiness of my post, I'm on my phone!

When I was in my late teens or early twenties I naively thought that "being in love" was the primary ingredient in a long-term successful relationship.

Marriage is challenging. "Being in love" biologically only lasts a couple/few years and then you have to figure out how to deepen that relationship and make it work without the biological boost.

A marriage can work with two people of strongly different religious beliefs. But I'd advise against going into one with that big of a hurdle to overcome - you will have plenty else to challenge your marriage without purposely having something that is that big of a challenge. Pick someone else. In my early teens/early twenties I don't think I realized that I could pick someone else and that it wasn't all based on being in love.

For some religions that may not be as big of deal, but where one member is a Mormon their whole world and culture revolves around an eternal marriage. It makes things very difficult.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2012 01:33PM by ronas.

It you can do it, it will take YEARS of effort. It will also likely engender some resentment from the former TBM. And frankly, if you and she are this young, you likely won't wind up together anyway.

So you have to ask yourself iof you really want to become invested in such a big way.

I sure wouldn't go there...

Tell her truth and let her go.

Tell her the facts because she deserves to escape if she can.

Go because even if she does leave and you end up together there are YEARS of emotional pain and angst ahead of you.

Wow, there is a lot of advice take in here. Thanks to everyone. I am going to take most of it and talk with her and try to encourage her to look things up for herself, but I am also going to hopefully move on after that talk. I'm not sure what the best way to approach it all is though. I am thinking of just laying out all of the factual stuff that I know for her and leaving her with a list of it.

Any advice for me when it comes to actually saying stuff? How can I not offend her?

One more idea for you...

Before you talk to her, write a long letter. Write down what she means to you. Write down your concerns with the church. Write it all down.

Then attempt to have the discussion with her. You may or may not to decide to give her the letter. But writing it all down will be extremely useful for you at the very least and it will be helpful to help you frame your discussion with her.

If you do decide to give her the letter it may allow her to read and digest it own her own terms and on her own timeframe without having to feel defensive allowing her to better understand where you are coming from than in an emotional/heated discusssion. At the same time it means she may read it out of context without you being able to clarify what you mean. It also means that you lose control of who she shares it with.

good idea

There is no way to not offend her, she is trained to be offended when anyone questions, or says anything not positive and uplifting about TSCC. Tell her your personal reasons for never joining, encourage her to go to mormonthink.org(which is run by mormons) and tell her the reason you will not pursue a relationship with her is because it is a no win situation and you care for her too much to have her resent you because either you are the guy who kept her from having an "eternal family" because she "settled", or you are the guy that caused her to "lose" her faith and live a carnal life.


This poor girl is in for a whirlwind of emotional pain no matter what you do.

Good Luck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2012 02:00PM by icanseethelight.

I'm so sorry you went through that, afriquee. I'm sure that's one of those times we would dearly love to have been wrong. I guess the advice to run comes from a lot of personal experience and/or observation of others around us who have been in that sort of situation. It's really sad, but it's a scenario which Mormonism creates time after time.

Sure there's a chance. Just don't expect it to happen overnight.

Step 1 is getting her to open her mind to other possibilities. If you can pry her mind open a bit without scaring her to shut it tight, you can chip at it bit by bit. Just ask her simple "why" questions, make her use logic.

Personally, I think one of the great things about the college experience is it exposes a person to people with different ideas and backgrounds, although BYU may not be a good place to experience that.

I did the same thing that you are planning to do. I wrote him a five page single spaced letter about what he meant to me, why I KNOW (hehe) God isn't the knit picky asshole the church makes him out to be, read him a couple horrible quotes from the mouth of Brigham Young, and told/begged him to just do whatever made him happy in life and to follow his heart, not his church. At the end of that letter was a list of reasons I couldn't convert. I showed them to him and encouraged him to research it for himself because he deserved to know EXACTLY why I could never convert if he was prepared to dump me over it.

I went at from an angle like, 'you DESERVE to know about the things they don't teach you' and 'you should know why I can't ever convert.' I told him there were secrets they kept hidden in vaults and to hide from HIM and that they spent his money on. None of this really registered with him and he kept circling back around to that I was trying to tear down his church. I kept insisting I just wanted him to know why I couldn't do it, over and over again. I tried to reason with him and with every complaint he had about what I was trying to do, I had a reasonable reply that immediately made him nod and say okay. For example,


HIM: Even if I do read this stuff, it won't change what I believe about my church.
ME: Okay! Good! Look at it then, because you have nothing to lose. Except more knowledge to put in your brain.


HIM: I know this church is true.
ME: Why? Because you feel it?
HIM: Yes.
ME: Well, you broke up with me and I KNOW you felt like I was the one. So, you could easily be wrong about your church.


ME: I sat through so much with you. Seminary, church, missionaries, family lessons. I was willing to wait two years for you! I'm just asking you to reasearch why I can't do it. Because you owe that to yourself and what our relationship was. We were in a relationship for so long and this is the last thing I'm ever asking you to do for me, when and if you're ever ready.
HIM: Okay. But when I asked you to sit through that stuff, I never tried to destroy your beliefs, I just wanted to share mine with you.
ME: You're right. You told me I was wrong! You told me I didn't feel right! You told me you KNEW and me, poor little me, was just confused and just didn't get it! You told me you were right and I was wrong and treated me like a child. Which feels worse, I wonder?
HIM: Okay.


It went like that. I felt pretty good. I felt like I got everything I had held inside for SO long out in the open. I never wanted to destroy his beliefs, but I knew I would never forgive myself if I didn't share what I 'KNOW' about JS, BY, the BoA and so on. For the soul that I knew that he was and how special and amazing he was to me for so long, despite the hard times, he deserved to know. That's why I did it. I had to know that I at least tried.

It's going to be hard to not offend her, but you just need to make sure you come at it from a certain angle. I took the angle that I was extremely hurt and offended by the doctrines of the church and wanted to express why to him as well as show him the historical information I learned that made me believe JS was a pedophile and a conman.

I honestly wish you the best! It's a hard thing to do, but if you're adament about telling her your two cents, I think you'll find that it will be worth it, regardless of the affect it has on you two. I know I am. I can never say I didn't try!

Stay true to yourself and let us know how things unfold for you. :) Good luck!


@Greyfort - It was definitely a horrible experience, but every day feels so much better than the last! I just really want to share my experience with other people so they know that no matter how much he might love you, and care about you, it hardly EVER turns out the way you hope... Sad, but true.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2012 02:19PM by afrique.

Unless she gives really great head, you really should let go, move on and find another girl. It sounds like she's moved on already, anyway.