Oh, and this is on topic. My son and I had a meltdown about him wanting to be Muslim. He was yelling in my face and told me to hit him, ground him, etc. Well, I didn't do that. I did tell him to shut up and listen to me.

When he calmed down we talked about JS and how he is not a profit. About christianity. he thinks that the god Allah, even though he knows they are the same god as the Christians worship, makes him feel happy. He kept on comparing JS and Muhummad, and that Muhummad was a prophet. I asked him how he knew that.\\

Well, basically he thinks that because Muslims believe in Peace and love that he will just do that. I told him he needs to know all the beliefs. he said that he will just believe the good ones, that are postivie. I tried to tell him about the treatment of women, he said that he won't have that belief, that, he believes women are equal to men, and etc.

I feel bad now for not taking him to any church since he was 5. So he doesn't even know anything much about Chritianity except about God and Jesus.

I told hm that you can't just pick and choose what beliefs to follow, that other Muslims will expect you to believe and follow them all, or others will assume you have all those beliefs. I thinik him labeling himself is what scares me. Going around here in Utah county saying he is Muslim. He is brown too, so I think that will just add to possible trouble. Maybe I'm being stupid about this.

I still told him he can't join till he is 18, any religion. Maybe I am going to have to take him to churches so he can compare.

I told him there is no perfect religion.

So, I guess having a clear-cut list of beleifs that I can back up in the Qu'ran would be great. I knwo there are other scriptures but I don't undersztand how that all works.

sorry bout my typing, in a bad angle and such. He is 15, and needs something at that age. he is obsessed with Muhummad Ali right now and that is where this comes from.

But this probably isn't really about a set of beliefs and more about wanting to belong to something -- something different.

Anyway, since I'm an atheist, I tend to give slightly more credibility to other atheists rather than either Muslims or Christians when it comes to what Islam is really about. Sam Harris has had some things to say.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/islam-and-the-future-of-liberalism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a8NDBiPTcs

Of course, to a 15-year-old, Sam Harris is just another old fart, not someone who might actually know what he's talking about. Good luck with all this.

He needs to know that there's no going back. The penalty for apostasy is death. Doesn't seem like much of a threat here and now, but you never know what the future will bring. He's only fifteen. We older folks know how much we and the world have changed since we were fifteen!

Islam's easy to get into - just recite the shahadah in the presence of two believing witnesses. It's hard to get out of. And you can't really be a cafeteria Muslim because the killin' kind of Muslims don't respect that freedom. In their eyes you're either all in or you're an apostate.

(I'm acquainted with a Muslim immigrant who rejected Islam after becoming a citizen and now worries a little about going back to the homeland to visit. And that homeland is not in a radicalized part of the world.)

It sounds like your son wants to assert his independence, make his own decisions, and be a part of something more than himself. That doesn't sound like such a bad thing. Definitely stick to the not joining any religion until he's 18, but meanwhile it really doesn't hurt if he chooses to identify himself as a Muslim. There are worse things he could be doing. Yes, he might be opening himself up to possible discrimination, but as long as it's not too severe, that could be a learning experience for him too, learning to empathize with minority groups. Utah is generally more accepting of Muslims than most other areas of the US, because of the similarities to Mormonism. There's really not much of a Muslim population in Utah county except for students who are only here temporarily, so he's not going to be getting a lot of social pressure. For the most part, I would just let him explore it on his own, or be supportive and look into it with him. Let him discover the objectionable parts himself, because if you bring it up, he'll just be defensive about it. I think if you don't make a big deal of it, he'll figure it out on his own. Just focus on teaching him critical thinking and scientific inquiry, he's smart enough to apply those things to religion on his own.

As a convert to Mormonism in my early 20's, it took me a heck of a long time to discover those parts myself and when I did, I was out thousands of dollars and lost all the "friends" I had made and now my in-laws hate me for ruining their son's chances for a planet.

Even though he may resist, you can plant some nuggets here and there and not let all the discovering be self-directed.

That's how my in-laws ended up with an apostate son ;)

the day he joins Islam because the will of Allah is always absolute & final. The Allah of Islam hates Women. His primary weapon against them is...no, not a penis, actually that would be so much merciful, I mean rape is bad but there is a chance to recover but a bucket of acid thrown to their faces? They look more horrible than lepers. Most girls in Afghanistan are raised as boys in disguise.
It is a fact; the Islam is the worst thing happened to Women and to Humanity.

That's insane and uninformed. What is practiced by the taliban is warped and twisted and nowhere near what REAL islam teaches. For the record the "Allah of Islam" has way more respect for woman than the god of the Old Testament. Just because radical fundamentalists twisted a religion for their own misogynistic power grab does not rewrite or reinvent the foundations of the religion.

That kind of overreaction is exactly what will make the problem worse. Yes, Islam has problems, in many ways comparable to Mormonism. No, Islam is not all about throwing acid in the faces of women, not all Muslims are Taliban, and most girls in Afghanistan are raised as girls, not boys. It's more helpful to stick to the facts than to exaggerate unnecessary fears.

Lawless honor killings, unpunished deeds, mainly against the women go even in most modern Islamic countries.
Any country where majority religion is Islam ruled by fear of Men & authority.

When was the last time a Mormon was lynched or gunned down for unbelief? I am sure we can find few. I grew up in Middle East, never once felt free to use my real (Infidel) name.
I am sure one can find a free Democratic Islam dominated country.
At the moment I can't.

Mormon apostates were killed by Danites in Brigham Young's day. Before Utah became part of the US, the Mormon theocracy was comparable to modern Islamic theocracies as far as brutality and violence. The real problem is that those countries are still ruled by religion, and I don't think that the particular religion is as much of a problem as the problem of extremists - from any religion - and brutal theocratic dictatorship.

Honor killings are still common in countries like Saudi Arabia. They don't even record the births or deaths of females there.

The acid attacks in countries like Pakistan and Indonesia are quite frequent enough to warrant a documentery for the western world. http://savingfacefilm.com/

These are not isolated incidents and they are tied into the Islam interpetation of the subjugation and ownership of women.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2012 02:27AM by Itzpapalotl.

To be fair, historically Christianity didn't always have a healthy attitude towards women, and to paint all Muslims this way is like thinking all Christians are like Westboro Baptist.


That aside, you don't have to join a religion to be moral and good. I am a total heathen who believes in peace, compassion and love without ridiculous rules and hate.
Though, Sufism sounds like a good alternative. There's Rumi to consider. I love the poems of Rumi.

wow. that is the most uninformed and ignorant bulls**t information I've ever heard in a while.

If he is obsessed with Muhammad Ali, then a really good foundation for discussion would be about Nation of Islam vs Islam. I would suggest reading this wikipedia article (and all the links to expanded topics): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam to help him understand more about the agenda and belief system Muhammad Ali initially subscribed to when joining Nation of Islam.

Before I got to the bottom of your post, I was going to suggest that you both research Sufism, a mystical branch of islam that is about peace, love, spirituality and kindness. It's not repression-based or warped and twisted like Wahhabi brand of Islam (this would be the sort of hardcore variety you see in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere). I thought this might be a good compromise for both of you when it comes to his interests, and then after looking at Muhammad Ali's wikipedia page, I saw that he is no longer Nation of Islam and is now Sufi.

Islam is not what we see in the media, and it is not the warped and twisted version we see being practiced in muslim-majority countries. Thus, you will have a difficult time finding verses in the qur'an to back up this twisted view. As for beliefs on women, just like christianity and judaisim, the Qur'an states that men and women are not equal for things like inheritance, but UNLIKE Judaism and Christianity, they ARE equal before god, that one does not come before the other, or from the other (not created from adam's rib as a helpmeet for men, etc.), or for the other. They are created for each other's mutual benefit. Just learning about Muhammad's wives, you'll see that the unwarped practice of Islam respects women, and there's a history of women scholars, businesswomen, etc. I guess my point is that as much as you want your son to know and accept the real truth and beliefs about Islam, you also have to be open to the real truth and beliefs about Islam. (also, I don't know if you are aware, but Jesus is very much respected and revered in Islam)

My understanding is limited, I am not an islamic scholar by any stretch of the imagination, so I can't really help you with exactly what you are looking for. All I can do is point out that it is likely that you are both laboring under misinterpretations and misconceptions about Islam.

Now, just to throw another idea out there, if he's at the age where he's looking for something, and wants to be different, steering him toward Baha'i might be something that works for both of you, there's the islamic influence, but christian (and others) as well. A really simplified explanation is sort of like unitarian universalism, but for theists. It would give him a unique identity, but not one attached to an alarming connotation like Islam. Just a thought. Here's the wikipedia article as a jumping off point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2012 08:55PM by wittyname.

Well, one thing you should tell him is that conversion
entails complete surrender -- not 99.99& -- that would still
be apostasy.

If I understand correctly, Islam teaches that it is the
one true contemporary religion, and that all human beings
are essentially "born Muslim."

If your son can accept that idea, then he is already a
Muslim and need not do anything in particular in public.

On the other hand, acceptance by other Muslims would, of
course, require a public profession, followed by obdedience.

If he then travels to a Muslim country, where Sharia Law
is in effect (either at the national or tribal level) he
will risk execution if he renounces his new membership.

If he is ready to accept that sort of control -- and ready
to help exercise that control over others, he's a Muslim.

UD

is what it is to be Muslim...so if you surrender your will to God you are a Muslim...even if Catholic or another religion. Islam is the religion that a traditional Muslim would be. At least that is what i have garnered over the years...also the God of Abraham is the God of:
Jews
Christians
Islam
so they are all interconnected by this root fact.
just sayin!

Mormons wish apostates dead, perhaps even more than the average muslim (maybe more in the past?). Mormons are taught to obey the law of the land regarding violent acts, so they're not that likely to execute the wishes of the faithful for their peace and for promoting the true faith. But that may change of course in the future. Some of them may feel the call from God to kill a few.
On the other hand, muslims are tied to medieval regimes and traditions and to law systems that some of them set higher than the law of the land. In some ways they're relatively like christians in medieval Europe in that some of them have difficulties respecting that the law of the land is independent of religion. That is: Sharia, in the oldfashioned interpretations and ways of (among other things) justify killing of apostates. So some muslims may feel themselves called upon (from Allah) to cut off some of the extreme things their believers (or even societies at large) may do in offending their faith or culture (the spirit of sharia, or even more their prophet Mohammad), like apostasizing or women daring to wear shameful clothing inviting vengeful rape.

It sounds like your emotional state of things might be fueling his desire to become Muslim even more. It's his life and his choice, all you can do is help him make an INFORMED decision. Don't discourage or encourage. Just be there for him. I agree with the poster who said that he could just be wanting to join a group of people bigger than himself. I linked a fully written, indexed paper over in your last post. It goes over everything from the origins of Islam to Mohammads life. The Qu'ran isn't perfect, it does have grammatical errors and evidence supports that Mohammed actually plagerised a poets work to create the Qu'ran. It gives the exact passeges of inconsistences, abnormalities, and full evidence to support it. On top of that it also address the violence in Islam and the Qu'ran. Others have also given you some good things to look at. In order to educate and help your child make a good decision for himself you will need to imerse yourself in Islam as well. It's the best way to understand him and what exactly he is after. I wish you the best!

Your son is 15, right? When I was 15, I developed an interest in Judaism. I read about it and had vague thoughts of converting (without, of course, having the whole story. It was just something new and different for me.) I eventually lost interest in it. The chances are that your son will do likewise.

So I would relax for now and not give your son's current obsession too much attention. Encourage him to learn about the different branches of Islam and about other world religions for that matter. His high school may offer a course in comparative religions. Other than that, encourage diverse interests -- sports, clubs, and so on.

"Maybe I am going to have to take him to churches so he can compare."

Good idea.

The more you put up roadblocks, the stronger his resolve will be, just to defy you. Find an Islamic leader who would be willing to talk to both of you. Make this a family project. Knowing about other religions is nothing but good.

The scriptures are the source of ultimate wisdom - except for the embarrassing/disgusting ones. Just ignore those.

The religion means peace - except in times of war against non-believers.

Every other religions' history is filled with horror, so why not ours?

Women are equal. Just don't look for proof of that statement within the power structure, history, or sacred writings/writers.

And the religion is all about tolerance, but because the religion is correct the followers ARE better than everyone else.

Not sure this will help, but towards the end of my mormon days... I didn't believe in most of their beliefs so I would just pick and choose which beliefs I believed and followed. That's not really being a part of that religion. You are either all in or you're not.

Tell him the truth, the catholic pope at the time before Muslemism existed, made a deal with the arabs to exterminate jews and take over Isael for power. They found a local peseant and treated him special that he was the chosen one that led
him to visions in a cave thus birth muslemism.
The muslims didnt stick to their deal and became trators to catholic control over the arabs and pushed the catholics out
and to this day have the power victory over Israel while catholics have victory spot vactican in Rome.

books have come out with factual evidence how this relegion really started up....Catholicism is behind it, as well as
all sunday pagen sun-worship day relegions who profess to believe in christ but are giving creedence as daughter churches to the mother of whores, the beast 666 and revelations of the bible says the whole world wandered after the beast.

signs/symbolism free masonary at the highest levels from catholicsm to mormonism and some muslems as masonaries also
captured as gov officials in photographs.

Its all politics, state and relegion comming together as one world future govenment the very thing the bible warned against.
The only way out of it, tho maybe imprisoned to go against the Masonary power controlling the world is to denounce their mother of whores sunday, so called resurrection day of jesus
as levitial law stated and the 4th original commandment of the 10 to always remember and honor the 7th day saturday as the sabbath and sealing sign of holyghost promise, in the real jesus. The false christ will return to his false relegions
sunday and to muslems even the false christ may or may not impress them or be decieved tho the real jesus 2nd comming will be blasphemy to jews and muslems tho many jews will repent and accept christ finally..

Jew, muslem, catholic, mormon, are all isms of one world united order control comming as marshel sunday law where one cant buy or sell unless have the mark of the chip code, 666 and to escape sunday law is to avoid the mark, willing to be imprissoned, die or whatever than take it.

the whole world wandered after the beast and so does mormons.

amen.. Larry. many will come out of great tribulation and denounce the false sabbath and be saved in christ.

What eventually happened between you and your son?

and they don't care how many holy wars and deaths of unbelievers it takes to achieve that end. When everyone is like them peace will be acheived.

heil Allah...... just sayin

Teach him about cult and how they lure people in.

He is now an atheist. I don't even know what happened except he was getting teased so now he doesn't believe anything and has enjoyed chatting up the local mishies about it. I have learned so much more myself so I thank you all. Now I have more to learn with the new posts! ! .

Tell him the Koran is a book of plagiarized trash based on the Bible and the Avesta. That it repeats the mistranslations in the Bible such as Mary was a virgin instead of the more accurate young woman.

Tell him Muhammed was a pedophile who had sex with a 9 yr old girl and a murderer who led 86 military campaigns to spread Islam by the sword. How he nearly wiped out Zoroastianism.

Tell him about the oppression of women in Moslem countries: honor killings, execution of rape victims, beatings, and rapes.

How Arab nations haven't invented anything of importance in centuries save terror and camel riding.

That Muhammed, like Joseph Smith, was 'commanded' to have sex with a lot of women.

How Muhammed declared himself to be the last in the line of prophets: self-aggrandizement is common among these charlatans, is it not?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2012 08:19PM by Itzpapalotl.

"How Arab nations haven't invented anything of importance in centuries save terror and camel riding."

they gave the world Algebra!

sum bitch is that who i have to thank for that crap!!?? :) :) ;)

BTW how is that hate working for you?
just sayin!

Well, I never thought I would be defending Islam on RfM, but here it goes.

I assume most posters and readers here were initially exposed to Islam to any degree after 9/11, and I am giving the posters above the benefit of the doubt that some of their opinion is at least shaped by the shock of that initial exposure and the subsequent (mis)representations over the last decade.

Islam and the Quran first caught my attention much before 2001. The introduction of my embryology textbook, "The Developing Human," reviewed early theories of embryology (including ones from the Indians, Greeks, and so forth). Mentioned in that introduction were citations from the Quran (including then undiscovered references to a small drop from a man and woman, settling in the womb like a seed, leech-like appearance of the early embryo, and later appearance as a "chewed substance").
Anyways, you might say that my subsequent interest in the Quran, Islam, and Muslims started from that reference point.

More recently (last year), I enjoyed watching on TED.com a talk by Lesley Hazleton, a self-described agnostic Jew, titled "On Reading the Koran." She addresses several of the topics mentioned in the posts above, including the myth of 72 virgins in heavan or killing of unbelievers, and I would recommend her talk to anyone who is interested...
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/lesley_hazelton_on_reading_the_koran.html


Some of the posts above are fairly humorous...


* "That Muhammed, like Joseph Smith, was 'commanded' to have sex with a lot of women."
Comparing polygamy in Islam and Mormonism is like comparing apples to oranges. The LDS Church introduced polygamy into a social context where it had not previously existed. Pre-Islamic Arabia, on the other hand, already had polygamy, and Muslims argue that their religion limited polygamy by putting constricting factors and capping the number of wives at four.

* "Tell him Muhammed was a pedophile"
Muhammad was 15 years younger than his first wife, and he was married to her monogamously for 25 years until she passed away. His subsequent marriages, in the remaining 12 years of his life, have been described as examplary (to demonstrate a principle), political (for alliances), or charitable (for widows). We may find the idea of marrying our cousins or young girls abhorrent, but that was not the case 1400 years ago in Arabia. Despite what certain interest groups may claim, the definition of marriage does in fact change over time.

* "How Arab nations haven't invented anything of importance in centuries save terror and camel riding."
Off the top of my head, I cannot remember an invention of importance from Mexico, Vietnam, Brazil, or the Congo. I do not denigrate the rich cultures or civilization of those countries, however. On the other hand, why do you assume that terror and camel riding were invented by Arabs?

* "Most girls in Afghanistan are raised as boys in disguise.
It is a fact; the Islam is the worst thing happened to Women and to Humanity."
Why don't you ask some Muslim women in the community where you live (or on online forums) what they think of their religion and their status in it?

Well...you're kind of glossing over the marriage to Aisha. She was six years old at the time of her marriage to Muhammad, and at age 9 the marriage was consummated and she moved into Muhammad's household. She took her dolls with her and played with them after her marriage - which under Islamic law is only allowed for children.
Though you're absolutely right about the polygamy, which was common in Arabia prior to Islam.

I'm happy to hear that things worked out with your son, non for this.

There are too many ridiculously ignorant comments about Islam on this thread to even bother responding to. I mean, seriously? That level of stupidity makes blind followers of religion look intelligent. (Only referring to the posts about conspiracy theories and irrational fear of Islam - they're fairly obvious.)

That they are both ancient and beautiful religions practiced in big cities.

To be fatalistic, I think it is already too late for Western Europe, which will be Muslim majorities starting with Belgium in about a decade.
Wahabism has been and is being exported to the free world by Saudi Arabia.
David Hume asserted the essence of liberty is open dissent. Most religions fight against dissent, but Islam has zero tolerance.
Take a look at "America Alone" (2006) by Mark Steyn. Steyn's documentation of the encroachments of Wahabism into Western liberties was disturbing six years ago, and they have only grown and expanded since then.
Funny thing about Mormonism is the birth rate may make Mormonism a stronghold in the western US that will have the moral will to preserve its culture against Wahabism/Islam.
The current administration is complicit. Time will tell, but it is an oddity that the oppressive religion I was raised in may be one of the few cultures that will stand up to islamic hegemony.

"The current administration is complicit. Time will tell, but it is an oddity that the oppressive religion I was raised in may be one of the few cultures that will stand up to islamic hegemony."

well i am not a Mormon but i am willing to bet aint many Americans will put up with the Sharia laws much less the hegemony of Islam here in the US...where do you get your info from "Faux News"? Obama is complicit with Islam taking over our country? Is that what you are saying? OH MY...yeah of course that is what Obama the Muslim is doing!! Mittens for President!! ...........NOT!

I don't think Obama is a Muslim and Romny is disappointing on many levels. But Barry's father was a Muslim/Communist/Anticolonialist. His stepfather, Lolo, was a Muslim/Communist. There had to be some inculcation during his childhood.
Even Dubya was complicit by modifying his language. "War on Terror" is nondescript. "War on Radical Islam" is a better description.
We should take a lesson from the Byzantines, who stood against Islam for 500 years.

First tell him about your experiences with Mormonism, and how the religion sells itself, then the reality of the religion vs the image of itself that it tries to share with the world. Then show your son how Islam does the same thing. It is uncanny.

Both subjugate women, and try to conceal the fact that they are misogynistic, by lying and saying it is only because they love women, that they feel they have to protect them so much by placing them in cages.

Second, point out that that both religions claim the true path to happiness is to give up your free will to an imaginary being, whose will can only be made to you through others.

Third, show how both religions blame outsiders for all their problems, when it really is themselves to blame. In Mormonism it is gentiles and apostates, in Islam it is Jews and non-believers.

Point out how both are claiming to reach out to Africa out of love, but both have a remarkable history of holding racist beliefs about black people.

Lastly, and most importantly, point out how good bacon tastes, and how a loving God would not forbid something so tasty. Actually that is not last. What you point out last, is Muslim science.

Like Mormons, who believe a lot of silly nonsense that is taught in their holy books, the Muslim Holy books also teach a lot of easily disproven ideas. Note that Muslim apologist try to dismiss these, but they can't change the fact that Mohamed taught that...

The earth was flat, and that the sun sets each evening inside a muddy pond. (Though in fairness some claim it is really a muddy well)

That pigs and monkeys were created when Allah became angry at a group of Jews and black people, and changed the accordingly. (Note fossil records prove that both animals existed before Allah)

That the sacred square building in Mecca is thousands of years old, was built by Abraham himself for the worship of Allah, and that King David lived in a time near Abraham's own time line. The building in question, I can not remember its name, was only a couple hundred years old when Mohamed decided to make it his holiest temple. It was also built for the worship of a female goddess, and the walls are covered with Koranic script in order to conceal carvings made to the original pagan deity.

There is more, but I would have to do a little research.

Tell your son Islam is a political system with a religion attached to it, with (modernly) a radical death cult driving the agenda.
Let's say you have Santa, the Tooth Fairy, a moderate islamist, and a radical islamist each reaching at the same time to grab a $100 bill. Who wins? The radical islamist. The other three are fictional! I read that somewhere. Too true to be funny.

You might also, and this is a huge gray area, let him try a couple of nice alcoholic beverages. Do this under your supervision. Maybe a couple glasses of wine at dinner, or something. The point is not to get him drunk, but to introduce him to something he might like and would have to give up if he became either a Muslim or a Mormon.

Don't make it obvious what you are doing. Next time you are eating a meal together, have a beer or a glass of wine, and tell him that you think he is old enough to try one if he likes, as long as it is under your roof, and he limits himself to one.

This also has the added benefit of you teaching him how to drink responsibly.

Again, it is a huge gray area. In Utah you could get in a lot of trouble for this, but in Florida, as well as most states, it is legal for a parent to serve their minor child small amounts of alcohol, so long as they are at home, and the child does not leave the safety of the home. Besides, if he is at home, who is to ever find out.

Enroll the kid in a boxing club and let him get his convictions beat into or out of himself within the context of the boxing ring.

Yea, this is dangerous. Islam is a highly dangerous cult. Sure there are "good muslims" but it has millions of nut case people in it and it is the direct cause of the suffering of millions of people now and millions in history. Exercise your parental authority on this one, no contact with muslim leaders or members. When he is 18 there is nothing you can do. Between now and then get facts on Islam and make sure he knows them...