I did not tell my wife of my Dad's email today, this just sprung up here in the afternoon, lol.

Wife: Have you ever read this before? Probably. I just read the entire thing and it really speaks to me as my way of living in the church. Would be curious to hear your reaction. http://staylds.com/docs/HowToStay.html
Wife: kinda tempted to send it to (my currently leaving the church brother).
Myself: “It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money as long as you have got it.” – Edwin Way Teale (1889-1980), Circle Of The Seasons, 1953
Wife: Hm. Not sure what you mean by that.
Myself: Something can make you feel good but still be immoral because it's not true. The ends don't justify the means, which is what staylds is espousing.
Wife: Hm. I guess I don't agree.
Wife: The ends justify the means for me.
Myself: You're willing to live with the possibility that you've been duped by a conman because it made you feel good?
Myself: Ultimately no one needs to justify things they do or believe that don't cause obvious harm to others, but I think it falls short of the most moral, truest way to live as a human being.
Wife: No. I'm willing to live with the kindness and love and the other things the church teaches on a weekly basis.
Wife: I am willing to do away with the things I don't believe.
Wife: for me it is not an all or nothing thing. like that paper states... for me there are plenty of gray areas... and i'm okay with that
Myself: Since when has religion been a uniter and not a divider?
Myself: Religions teaches "I'm right, everyone else is wrong." and no matter what they say about loving others, it is that unspoken attitude that is usually acted upon.
Myself: Mormonism more so than others, unfortunately.
Myself: I don't think we need a divisive religion to teach us the benefits of being good human beings.
Myself: Mormonism tells you to be "in the world, but not of the world." Us against them, in other words.
Myself: But I guess the main point of that article is that some people still want some kind of connection to God and spirituality, and so have they have to keep some kind of religion, for better or worse.
Wife: Well... I've never really felt that. My idea is to be inclusive of everyone. So thats a part that I choose to live.
Wife: Right. That article is not for people who've already decided they don't want religion. it is for people like me.
Myself: I don't have the God gene, I guess, I've never felt any kind of connection to a supernatural being.
Wife: Yeah. And I do. I guess that's what it comes down to.
Myself: So of course I question anyone who thinks they do.
Wife: sure. I get that.
Myself: I can understand their desire for it, I just don't believe they have an actual relationship with a mystical being.
Myself: wishful thinking.
Wife: I think you can have a relationship with a mystical being.
Myself: Why in the history of the world has it never been proven to happen then?
Myself: People's brains can do a lot of funny things.
Wife: I like all the things the article points out about raising children. That's what I'm going to do.
Wife: Has what been proven to happen?
Myself: a relationship with a mystical being.
Wife: I think that's what the bible is.
Myself: I think it's harmful to teach kids that their is a devil out there trying to get them.
Wife: You must not have read the part about teaching children.
Myself: I think it's harmful to question 12 year old about sexuality, and shame them for normal adolescent stuff like masturbation.
Myself: You don't always get to teach what is taught to our kids in church.
Wife: read that part.
Myself: ok
Myself: i was only about 1/3 the way through
Wife: yeah. it's long.
Myself: The only way to keep kids in the church is to give them the full blinders-on assault from birth on and hope that it sticks. With the open apporach to Mormonism they suggest you might as well all just quit, because that's what eventually what will happen to them, so they might as well have done something better with their time.
Myself: But I'd prefer their approach to the fanatical approach, lol.
Wife: i disagree. i think it keeps them open minded... but spiritually open.
Wife: i think it teaches them a lot of good moral things that... sure you can teach at home... but its good to learn it in a classroom setting too.
Myself: Yeah, it does seem like a good way to keep them open and thinking.
Wife: yep.
Myself: But at the end of the day the church has still "officially" been a backwards, anti-progress organization.
Myself: And I think it's moral cowardice to not dissassociate oneself from such an organization for selfish reasons. Just sayin'.
Wife: see... criticism like that is not really helping. i choose to see it as a well intentioned... sometimes off organization that really wants to help people feel closer to god.
Myself: How does Prop 8 accomplish that?
Wife: when you make accusations of "moral cowardice"... that's really offensive... and mean... and condescending.
Myself: I know, I'm sorry.
Myself: But you are against so many things the church has done, so it's hard to understand.
Wife: im fine going back and forth with you on this... as long as you are respectful.
Wife: its when you get mean that I tend to get upset.
Wife: i am going with the "take some leave some" approach. it may not make sense to you... but it does to me.
Myself: Do you support an organization that has been against racial, gender, and sexual equality?
Wife: just because i am a part of it doesn't mean i support it.
Myself: I don't think a member deserves a free pass on these issues.
Myself: Is it not still tacit, implicit support?
Wife: you always try to make everything so black and white... and i just dont see things that way.
Myself: I think church history and actions has been pretty clear with the blacks and whites.
Myself: I just don't think trying to make it grey changes that.
Myself: Anyway, sorry if I'm being direct -- but that's a burden you bear for choosing your affiliation.
Wife: i don;t mind you being direct... as long as it is coming from a loving place... and not one of superiority... or haughtiness.
Wife: sometimes i don't think you're trying to see where I;m coming from.
Wife: i think you should try and see my perspective... even though you disagree with it.
Myself: No, I think middle-ground mormonisn is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure if they can have gtheir cake and eat it too.
Wife: Well. I'm going to try.
Myself: Is it really so easy to throw out what you don't like and keep what you want, just to satisfy your own needs?
Wife: Yeah. I like the buffet idea. You know how I LOVE buffets. I still truly believe I am on a religious journey... and this is just part of it.
Myself: That's like trying to shape the universe around you an individual, isn't it?
Wife: I like the idea from that article that you don't have to make a decision about things right away. I like taking my time.
Wife: We all make our own realities to an extent. So yeah... in many ways I am shaping the universe around my own individual reality.
Myself: Oh well, I appreciate that it's all pretty casual in our household, but I think our kids would be better prepared to be citizens of the world not being raised with the church's views on things.
Wife: I think they will not be affected knowing about Mormonism... and knowing that it is their decision to make.
Myself: I don't think it's something they can't overcome, though, lol.
Wife: I think they can be better people being taught some of the things they will learn.
Wife: and I think it will be good raising them with an open understanding and views on tolerance, and spiritualism, and accepting many points of view.
Myself: Still, it's strange to think that their is some benefit to semi-raising kids in what the rest of the world views as an odd cult, a cult with a history rife with problems and fraud.
Wife: Whether they like it or not, its part of their heritage. That part they should at least grow up knowing.
Myself: Yeah......but you don't have to risk them falling victim to the same con that our ancestors did -- just because our ancestors did.
Wife: they get to make their own choices. we should present our feelings... and let them do what they want. I don't think it serves anyone well to make a mockery of where they came from.
Myself: That's like saying "We may or may not have been duped, so unfortunately as our offspring you have to go through that as well..."
Wife: I don't like how you're using the word "duped".
Myself: unwittingly made to believe.
Wife: More like: our ancestors believed one thing... Mom believes one way... Dad belives another... and you can choose how you want to believe.
Wife: I think it is important when talking to the kids about religion.. .that you are respectful of how I feel.
Myself: I wouldn't ever talk to them about how you feel.
Wife: It would really make me feel bad if I found out that you were making fun of me... or making me sound unintelligent about my beliefs.
Wife: ok
Myself: I never have.
Wife: ok. but that's why I think when you DO talk to them you should not use words like "duped"
Myself: All I can do is present accurate church history to counter what they learn in church, that should be enough.
Myself: Doesn't have anything to do with you.
Wife: that's fine. but as long as you do it in a respectful way... because as you know... you can get very condescending sounding...
Myself: And I can say "Not everyone knew these things before. We know more things now about church history."
Wife: sure. That's fine.
Wife: But I think we should always approach it as neither one of us trying to convince them one way or the other... but always leaving it open for THEM to decide.
Myself: Even though they are children who wont' have critical thinking skills until they're almost 30.
Wife: Yep.
Myself: Well, it will be interesting to see how well Mormonism takes hold in the minds of kids who are given alternate views.
Wife: Because when they are teenagers they will THINK they know everything... so we just have to present them with as much of our own experiences and knowledge as we can... and then always end it by saying... but it's up to you to decide for yourself.
Wife: yep. we'll see who has the god gene and who doesn't. lol.
Myself: I think we should got to WinCo tonight, we need some things. Plus one of the cds from the library didn't get returned.
Wife is typing...
Wife: uh oh. sounds good.

I think you should let her idle as a NOM as long as she wants.

Many of us stopped there in the way out, convinced for awhile that there was solid ground there to stand on.

What I found personally was that in the end, even though I had constructed a nice, cozy, metaphysical, contemplative explanation that taped all the parts of mormonism together, I was still essentially an outsider. Anytime I would try to talk about my ideas with anyone I might just as well have been an apostate. No one was willing to think about the ideas or even acknowledge the obvious problems, nor were they willing to acknowledge the heroic efforts on my part to retain my faith.

Your wife can be a NOM. She will sit in meeting after meeting and grate her teeth at each stupid lesson and talk. This will get really old after awhile.

The only lively and stimulating thing she will be left with is to read or chat or browse with other NOMs and other "Borderlanders", where she will merely get more familiar with the impossibility of the issues and the reality that she cannot ever be an insider without being a liar herself.

I can completely understand where both of you are coming from.

Do you really think being respectful of your wife's religion means your children won't have critical thinking skills?

My daughter knows almost nothing about Mormonism, but she's got excellent thinking skills and has identified all by herself that the religion of her extended family is crazy, boring and stupid...and I've imposed upon myself the rule of being respectful about the beliefs of my extended family while not lying about them...I talk about Mormonism like I talk about Buddhism...it's not my thing, and there's some crazy stuff, but I don't really care.

You can teach your children critical thinking skills. I think your wife's requests are not crazy, silly, or ignorant. I think for a TBM (perhaps a NOMish one), she's a pretty reasonable lady who wants a relationship with you.

Reading that conversation, if I leave out my personal opinions about each of your beliefs, I'd say she's more accepting of you than you are of her. And considering she's an LDS person, that's really saying something.

You're a lucky man.

You make some good points. We knew where we both stood before we were married. She really liked the idea of faith, where I had an opposite view, to put it kindly. We've been married for 8 years, for most of which we've let sleeping dogs lie. I left the church 12 years ago because I know longer believed in God, not specifically for LDS problems. Just this year have I discovered a lot of these problems, which has led to us having conversations about these specific issues for the first time ever. It was very hard at first, and she didn't like having to address these things at all, in spite of being an open minded, politically liberal person who really didn't like the church's meddling with Prop 8, etc. We can mostly talk about these things and be fine.

I know I come off as a bit of a jerk sometimes in the conversation, I didn't want to hide that. I've had the flu for two weeks and my filter is very thin presently as a result, lol.

We have two young sons, and the eldest at 5 already knows I'm not a believer. In my mind I don't think Mormonism will stick with them if they are raised and educated how staylds recommends. Like I told my wife, I really just wish we could all skip a drawn-out process and go to the beach on Sunday instead. But because we had an informal pact on these things before we got married, things will just kind of keep on going the way they have, for better or worse.

for one, I didn't realize mormonism was a cherry-picking religion and that you could only live the parts you wanted to.

AND when you support a religion that has victims--like gays (being that I'm the "ex" wife of someone gay and my kids and I also bear some of the brunt of the attitude)--so by supporting mormonism in any fashion, you are supporting abusers.

My wife is here now. She takes what she wants and leaves the rest. Unfortunately, appearances are important so she puts herself under undo stress to keep us going every week to look the part, although because I will not lie to people, there is not much appearances left.

If she is willing to read things like how to stay mormon, she will get there.

Does your wife know that you are sharing personal conversations, word for word, with us? Seems like a breech of trust to me...

I don't think so. I think it would be a breach of trust if you told his wife.