There have been so many comments on this board about masturbation, Bishop interviews with youth about this, MP interviews about this, and the obsession with this in the mormon church. This is (as usual) inspite of the pyschological evidence that masturbation is normal and healthy.

So, these are the questions that keep popping up in my mind:

1. Why is the Mormon church so obsessed with this?
2. Why do leaders ask these questions? When I was a Bishop, I was never told I had to do this or that I should. There is interpretation by each church leader of the handbook.
3. Why is masturbation so wrong?
4. Do they realize the damage the youth interviews do?
5. What good comes from this policy? What damage comes from this?

1. Because trying to repress a natural and healthy instinct causes people to focus on it even more.

2. I'm guessing some just feel like a righteous judge, where others get turned on by hearing about it.

3. Because BKP instructed men not to play with their little factories?

4. I doubt it. They think god thinks its a sin.

5. There have been cases where teens killed themselves from the guilt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2012 01:37PM by Lost Mystic.

Pleasure in the MORG world is a bad thing...especially when it involves anything sexual...IMHO self love is important....how you practice it is your business alone...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2012 10:22PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

All I can figure out is that it represents some sort of awful threat to Mormonism, a make-or-break thing. So the threat is probably that somehow masturbation will steal the youth (boys) and the leaders (men) and drive the church into ruin. But for their purposes, girls and women don't masturbate; if women and girls did (and they do), it wouldn't matter because when has the church ever cared about the sexuality of women?

There's probably something very fundamental going on here. None of us can figure it out.

I've been told it's forbidden because it will make people want to have sex... which is a$$backwards to me... it satisfies some of those desires making it easier to go without the real thing longer (imo)

When my oldest became a teenager, my dad asked me if I had talked to him about masturbation (as in not to do it). I wanted to say, "no, i'm sure he can figure out how to do it on his own." But I just replied yes. Because my kids know what it is and they know to do it in privacy.

I believe the more a human is told not to do something (I.e. masterbate, look at porn, drink... etc.) The more likely they are to get involved in it, the more enticing it is, the more sneaky they have to be, the more exciting it is. None of the non-members I have dated have ever had a porn problem but every single member I have dated has.

I've heard many state that it creates a selfish and self centered attitude. It's a gateway drug to the world of sin and selfishness.

It's a great device for controlling people. If fornication is second only to murder, then wanking must not be far down the list of especially egregious sins. Very few teenagers can refrain from doing it completely, so if "the gospel" ain't working for you, it places the blame completely on the "sinner". The "sinner" then works ever harder to overcome the "sin" and is bound even tighter to the organization who reaps the benefits of the members' sacrifice of time and money. While at the same time the organization doesn't have to supply much in return to keep up the charade.

The whole thing really left me out to dry. I was 14 at the time of BKP's infamous "Little Factory" talk. It was at that point that I figured what I was doing was so wrong. If I wasn't careful I could turn out to be homo!

It wasn't until my mid-20s that I figured out how universal this "problem" was that there wasn't any exact correlation between wanking and whether you "feel the spirit". Damn, what a mindf*ck it all was.

Often the morg was rather silent on the matter. Some bishops didn't really care, and others were voyeuristic pervs. Either way there was nothing to stop them.

<<1. Why is the Mormon church so obsessed with this?>>

It seems that is due to a combination of Packer's and Kimball's nasty and pernicious influences. Certainly Kimball has been responsible for spreading a great deal of misery around the world over the years.



<<2. Why do leaders ask these questions? When I was a Bishop, I was never told I had to do this or that I should. There is interpretation by each church leader of the handbook.>>

Have you read Packre's writings ... also peterson's whop actually suggested tying a hand to one's bedframe? Talk about abusive condult on their part!


<<3. Why is masturbation so wrong?>>


Basically, it isn't. In deed, it has been proven to have physiological benefits. Of course, the Victorians had dreadful sanctions against such activities ... for males, they actually had spiked penile rings and electric shock edvices should a boy even try to get an erection. Of course, it was well known that females never masturbate!


<<4. Do they realize the damage the youth interviews do?>>

Either they genuinely don't, or they actually do and just give a damn.



<<5. What good comes from this policy? What damage comes from this?>>

Immense damage, and no good. There have been documented cases of suicide resulting from this.


Blood on the hands of the prophet and/or General Authorities? I think so.

I was tortured by guilt and confused feelings about this issue for years. Of course, being a harmless natural instinct, I couldn't stay away from it for more than several months at a time. I thought I was so weak on top of being disgusting and perverted. I learned to hide it very well, even from myself in a way.

It just about ruined a relationship that led to my now happy marriage as well. I hid anything related to masturbation from her and she got the idea I was hiding something REALLY serious like pedophilia. Get it out in the open people. There's nothing wrong with it.

I think many folks are reading way too much into this, searching for a logical explanition. My belief? If they can control your basic, natural, sexual (God given-right?) feelings, they can control everything else.

Even monkeys gratify themselves. :)

It's a straightforward logical pathway:

premise 1; Adultery/fornication are the "sin next to murder".
premise 2; Thinking about a sin or wanting it is ultimately the same as doing it.
premise 3; masturbating is thinking about and wanting adultery and fornication.

Therefore:

Masturbation is ultimately next to murder.

You think I'm kidding?
I nearly drove myself to suicide laboring under the above delusion for many years.

In reality...all 3 premises are flat wrong

I think StillAnon hit the nail on the head.

They teach you that you are not even entitled to your own thoughts and body. Your thoughts and genitals belong to THEM.

Obsessing over the masturbation issue (and in too many cases to ignore--including my own, having a pervy bishop who wanted to know EVERYTHING, such as: did I use my hands or a vibrator?) not only applies to virtually every human, but is about the most personal a thing that exists in our lives.

Mind. Control. Their best cult tactic to date.

Here are some thoughts to consider regarding the issue.

The focus on masturbation as so wrong, wrong, wrong is especially baffling when compared with the protecting of child molesters within the priesthood ranks.

This is the key to understanding. Please notice that the brethren do not bother married people--men OR women-- about masturbation BECAUSE IT DOESNT AFFECT THEIR OBJECTIVE.

They don't bother women or girls about it either BECAUSE IT DOESN"T AFFECT THEIR OBJECTIVE.

They bother the young men. Obsessively, I would suggest. My older single male friends report that they are "sometimes" asked about masturbation, but always asked about porn.

This leads to the obvious conclusion that their objective has to do with young men. Now skip to the whole oral sex debacle that resulted when Spencer Kimball had a fit when someone told him that BYU students were having oral sex and answering temple questions that they had not had intercourse. Man that sh*t hit the wall and EXPLODED. I am sure they could hear him yelling in Manti.

This is a big clue of what the masturbation obsession really is all about-- IT IS ALL ABOUT DENYING YOUNG MEN ANY SEXUAL OUTLET with the idea that this will drive them into early marriage.

Church statistics show that a young man who has sexual outlets delays marriage to, oh, finish his education and maybe go on to grad school. That puts him right in the hands of the liberal elite to have their way with him.

Next thing you know he marries a non-Mormon and there goes an asset family as far as tithing goes. No sir--they have studied it out in great detail, the earlier the young man gets married and starts pumping out children, the more likely it is that he will pay tithing for the rest of his life.

And we all know that's the real objective here. Establishing the financial security of the kingdom. Yes, there will be suicides and misery along the way because it's basically bullying and intimidation, but if that's the price we have to pay for a restored church with a healthy cashflow, then so be it.

It's not like we can just look to the heavens to provide...we are realists, businessmen, and this is our customer retention plan.

Anagrammy

Perhaps Kimball and Packer whacked it the most, and that is why they were so obsessed. Maybe it was guilt setting in.

I don't think it was a well-planned scheme. It just so happened that mormons on every subject has tried to stay in the 19th century as much as possible and masturbation is one of the very rare cases where they actually succeeded.

As a prolific masturbator and chronic guilt sufferer (kept me off a mission for a number of years, sent me to counseling at BYU to put a stop to it, threatened to kick me out if I couldn't get a--no pun intended--handle on it), I'm positive it's all about control and, as Anagrammy says, getting the boys married ASAP.

I had a variety of bishops I worked with, trying to get my desires under control. One admitted to having had the problem himself--he told me of his control methods (rewarding himself with a long-awaited purchase after a successful period of time without having masturbated); one threatened discipline. One mission president was relatively lax; the other threatened to withhold a temple recommend just prior to my release because of my propensity for "releasing". The thing I learned through all this, despite the crushing guilt, was never to mention it.

Essentially, I learned to lie by trying to get myself under control. My counselor at BYU told me that I couldn't consume my self-identity with the label that came with masturbation--that there was more to me than the one thing I identified with myself. He told me to "come out" to someone because at that point, no one really knew me--I had hidden so much from people because of the shame. I told my brother, and it was very therapeutic, but after catching me looking at porn via his web history, I'm sure he's always been suspicious.

At this point, I'm at peace with it. I'm not open to talking about it with people (besides on a relatively anonymous web forum), but I'm not consumed by guilt when it (still relatively frequently) occurs. I'm a sexual dude. I need sex. I like sex. And when I don't get sex through the officially approved channels, I make my own sex.

I'm sure that was far too much information for y'all, but it is what it is.

My guess: They believe to do so does not represent purity and that it can lead to a person having a problem. The same thing with alcohol. They think it could lead to alcoholism and bad behavior if seen in public intoxicated. Coffee: It has caffeine and can become addictive. They try and keep people away from addictions by eliminating it altogether.
As far as marrying young: They probably think that alleviates masturbation and keeps people more pure, but while men (or women) may do it less often, I am sure it still occurs from time to time. Also, the temptation of cheating and affairs is still there, even if a person is married, so marriage does not keep people out of the "danger" zone.
I believe it is all about conduct and they find all those things unacceptable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2012 06:55PM by suckafoo.

anagrammy, what you said struck fear in my heart for my family. I believe what you said makes perfect sense... and it scares me to death to admit it. I feel like my family are slaves...

I stick by my observation that everything they do is calculated. The last prophet who thought he was in charge was SWK, and you saw what happened there.

There is too much money at stake to trust this "church" to a religious fanatic.

It is run like a business and customer retention is an issue in human psychology. They know EXACTLY why people leave and WHY they leave. Consider this--they did a focus group about why people didn't like going to the temple.

Take a second more to think about that and what it implies about how the church really operates. They couldn't make that decision without supporting data to present to those with whom they share power. This could not possibly by the Q15--they are always on the road "connecting." Which is why they don't have time for doctrinal questions.

Every missionary who reports in here tells us that the missionaries came and reamed them out. Can this be true? Why ALL of them--can they all be slackers? Is it a coincidence that all of them are delivering the same message? Or is it that they have been told what to say that has been shown to produce the best results (meaning increase in numbers).

So...who are these people? I submit that functioning The Committee, as they are affectionately called, is none of our business. I suggest the whole idea of inspired apostles making decisions based on revelation from God is part of the hoax.

God doesn't care if you masturbate. In fact, most people realize that if masturbation does not take place, bad things happen. Women don't know how their own body works and are not comfortable with using the equipment for it's natural purpose. Men rush into marriage without the necessary financial and emotional preparation to support a family.

The church cares nothing about either one of these. They work on the basis of quantity. They've learned that many poverty-stricken families with children hanging off every leg produce more tithing (due to more dependence on god) than fewer educated families with less children and higher paying dual careers.

You can see now how masturbation by young men is not helpful, not helpful at all.

Anagrammy

OK. This may be waaayyyy off, but here goes.

the mormon gal who does my hair said the church is against masturbation because it leads to homosexuality. I gasp in horror (suddenly thinking that my husband was gay) and here was her reasoning.

"When boys and men masturbate, they eventually do it IN GROUPS!" (I am not making this up!) And my friends, that is how they become gay!

This woman is in her 40's, divorced and TBM to the core. Has anything like this ever been taught in church? Crazy, crazy, crazy.

Yes, I believe it's in SWKimball's book - Miracle of Forgiveness.

I have stepped away from the church after 37 years. I served a mission in the 90's was never in any interview in my life asked if I masturbated. Grew up in Utah, now live in another state. Was in a bishopric in Utah as well as other states as a 1st counselor, never came up in any training I ever went to. Asked my sons who are all over 12 if they were ever asked in an interview about it, they as well were never asked about it. For me it was talked about as being wrong in priesthood meetings etc, but NEVER asked, my sons never asked about it, nor was I ever told to ask anyone about it. It is not a temple recommend question nor was it ever addressed in the handbook of instructions to talk to youth about it. Just think it happened to a few, and it caught on like wildfire.

I think your experience is valid but so is mine which completely contradicts yours. My SIL told me that her teenage son was asked by his bishop if he masturbates. Teenage son said yes and the bishop forbid him taking the Sacrament. Publicly humiliated because everyone wondered why he wasn't taking or passing the Sacrament any more. Bishop met with my nephew regularly to discuss his masturbation problem. When he became old enough to achieve the rank of Teacher in the Aaronic priesthood, he still hadn't overcome his "problem" and the bishop wouldn't let him be ordained. Again, all his friends and neighbors knew something was wrong and wondered why. Now all the extended family knew something was wrong because we all knew he didn't get the priesthood advancement. My big-mouthed SIL told anyone who asked what her son's problem was. Nephew continued to meet with the bishop. At one point, nephew was texting the bishop daily to let him know if he'd succeeded in keeping his hands off himself. Finally even my fanatical SIL got fed up and stayed home from church because she thought the bishop was being unfairly harsh and that her son had repented. After a month of inactivity, the bishop gave in and my nephew was ordained.

Fast forward a couple of years and SIL is getting married in the temple to her second husband (nephew is from her first marriage.) The bishop withheld my 17 year old nephews temple recommend so the day his family (mom, new dad, two step-brothers and two younger siblings) were sealed together, my nephew had to sit outside the temple and not be sealed to his parents because he masturbated. They returned to the temple 4 months later, when my nephew was sufficiently shamed so he "behaved" himself long enough to get a temple recommend.

Now granted, their bishop is a pervert and a demon of the first class and from what I've heard, there is nothing that says in the CHI that you should even ask about masturbation, much less resort to this extreme. But these PERVERTS exist and the church gives them the authority to push the envelope and exert their power and damage lives. And it's not just one weirdo, or even two. A number of bishops behave this way. I'm not sure how many Catholic priests have been outed for inappropriate behavior but I'm sure as many Mormon Bishops abuse their authority by behaving like the bishop in the above story. And I'm equally sure that they justify it as serving the Lord. It may just be mental and emotional abuse in the majority of the cases but it's abuse nonetheless and while it exists even in a minority of cases, it needs to be outed. If you weren't abused, thank heavens. I was never asked about it either (although I'm a girl so that may be part of it). But these cases exist and we need to get the whole bishop interview/sexual manipulation crap out in the light.

I was asked about it in every PPI, temple recommend interview, or before getting any of my callings...

EVERY interview.

I think y'all must be outliers on the bell-graph

Same.

You may not have asked a child directly if they masturbated, but I'll bet you asked them if they "lived the law of chastity". Maybe I'm ill-informed, but I was under the impression that chastity encompassed all sexual "misconduct", whether a duet or solo. (Or trio. ;-) )

I would also posit that just as so many other rules in the crutch, the local lay clergy have a stadiums-width of space for their interpretation of the rules. Which is another beautiful PR stunt of the crutch - "the church is perfect but the people aren't" crap. But to me, considering the damage these varied interpretations can cause, the church is far more guilty for creating these situations in the first place and failing to do anything but exacerbate the problem.

Just lie!

The simple answer to your question
1. Why is the Mormon church so obsessed with this?

CONTROL!

CAgirl said, "we need to get the whole bishop interview/sexual manipulation crap out in the light".

I couldn't agree more. This practice/company policy is so, so destructive. What in the hell does someone in a position of religious power/authority think they are doing asking minor children sexual questions? Or for that matter, any church members or investigators, married, single, widowed or otherwise.

I think it is sexual abuse, and spiritual and emotional rape.

We need to expose the hell out of this....STAT

1) Without sin, there is no need for redemption.

2) Without redemption, there is no need for the church.

3) Without a need for the church, there is no power opportunity.


So, the church uses an old marketing trick: First you sell people a problem, then you sell them the solution.

But where do you find a good problem that is: 1) universal, 2) effective and 3) recurring? Most Mormons are basically decent people - they don't rob 7-11's - they don't rape people in dark alleys - BUT they DO have a sex drive, and even though most of them are well behaved sexually, the vast majority of them do masturbate (at least occasionally).

Masturbation is the most useful common denominator for "selling" the membership a feeling of guilt -- and thus, for selling them the church's redemption. Other sexual matters easily follow this.

Masturbation didn't used to be an issue in the church. The church was silent on it and probably didn't give a hoot about. You won't find any anti-masturbation sermons in early church history documents.

Around the late 19th/early 20th century there was a school of thought in the medical world that masturbation caused all sorts of problems and mental disorders that were later proven to be a false hypothesis.

Nevertheless during this fervor the current prophet at the time adopted this flawed theory and elevated masturbation to an evil thing. Since the rest of the church is brain washed to obey the prophet they follow along.

The same thing happened with blacks. BY was racist and injected his philosophies in the church. Since you can't question the prophet the leadership of and members of the church stupidly and blindly followed it until SWK was smart enough to break the chain, but he still had to say it was a magical revelation so as not to make the blind following look stupid.

The church handicaps itself time and time again because they don't allow open questioning on wacky policies that the leaders pull out of their butts.

As a member its your job to follow and not question even if the prophet is wrong. You will still be blessed as long as you obey and don't question even if the prophet is wrong.

For whatever reason, people feel guilty for masturbating. Generally, if someone were to ask you point blank if you masturbate, especially in such a formal setting as an interview to determine your “worthiness”, it would strongly affect you emotionally. This emotional reaction impairs a person’s cognitive defenses and makes them easier to control; it works because it induces a “guilty” person to panic by putting them in a no win situation: if they answer “yes”, they’re humiliated, if they answer “no”, they’re a liar, and if they refuse to answer they look like they have something to hide. Even if they’ve never masturbated, the question is still capable of producing an extreme amount of stress because of its highly invasive nature; it makes the applicant wonder what else the person asking them the questions feels they have the right to know. It is intimidating for a Mormon either way, because the interviewee is thoroughly convinced that they need to win the approval of their interviewer in order to progress spiritually. This is a classic example of Mind Control and an explicit Marker of a Cult.

If someone made it through their time in TSCC without ever getting asked about masterbating, I say congratz, consider yourself lucky. :-) Everyone I've ever talked to about it was asked.