I just listened to Elder Holland's comments on "The Mormon Candidate" for the first time, and was treated to quite a number of gems, among which was this statement:

"...we're not a cult. I'm not an idiot, you know. I've read a couple of books and I've been to a pretty good school, and I have chosen to be in this church because of the faith that I feel and the inspiration that comes. I've met people, and if people want to call us a cult, they can call us a cult and you can call us a cult, but we are 14-million and growing, and I'd like to think that your respect for me would be enough to know that this man doesn't seem like a dodo."

If I'm not mistaken, the following reinforces the idea that this guy is in a cult:

1) His appeal to reverse-ad-hominem by refering to his education and acquaintances
2) His use of the euphemisms "faith" and "inspiration" to justify his position (to those who look favorably on such terms, which is most people)
3) His appeal to the inflated membership number to make his church look good
4) Trying to make all people who respect him offended that anyone outside of that circle would consider him a "dodo"

Remember, Holland, nobody who has ever been in a cult has ever realized they were in a cult. Your appeals don't help your case, and it would be much better if you started using logic.

"I'm not an idiot." So far, he's batting .000

Something I whipped up the other day:

http://runtu.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/holnix-e1333660601247.jpg

bwahahaha! Thanks for that!

Awesome!

"...I've read a couple of books..."
May he should read many books on a diversity of subjects.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2012 04:15PM by quebec.

I was really surprised how poorly Holland came off. He was overly defensive and seemed too adminstrative, and not pastoral, seeing like a CEO behind his desk.

The LDS Church used to better a PR. How did Holland get assigned??

JH has being asked tougher questions than he is use to. They will only get tougher. He was very uneasy. I could have asked better questions. Tell me about the hat and the peep stone, is it fact or legend?

and while you're at it... What's up with this Kolob thing?

Agreed. The majority of Mormons I know become extremely defensive when you present them with controversial evidence about their faith. It just makes their religion seem even weirder than it actually is.

"...I've read a couple of books..."

I believe that.

"...I've read a couple of books..."

apparently not the ones I've read.

If you have to say "I'm not in a cult." That is usually a sign that you might be in a cult. It's very rare that anyone is falsely accused of being in a cult.

I agree with anon90. If someone tells you that you are in a cult, what would be the wisest response:

A. I'm concerned that you would say that. You must have a reason and I'd like to discuss this further.

B. NO I'M NOT!

What was Elder Holland's response?

"Ignore the ferret hanging out of my ass!"

That's not even the entire standard works! I assume he is yet to read the Book of Abraham for a start.

he came off as Totally uncaring, almost a Zombie.
too bad mormon TBMs don't have a little more (outside) perspective about things, they might understant others like they wish to Be Understood.

kimball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I'm not mistaken, the following reinforces the
> idea that this guy is in a cult:

I'm not sure I believe his poor argument tactics make a case for him being a member of a cult--which is defined as (1) worship of the leaders/founders, (2) using thought-control (brainwashing) manipulation, (3) time/money exploitation to the benefit of founder/leaders.

Now, I do think the morg fits these criteria, but I don't see his statements as strong evidence for that.

Perhaps his appeal to authority (below) is a loose example of (1). His appeal to victimhood and appeal to (2). But they aren't strong evidence of his cultish thinking. Just his arrogance.



> 1) His appeal to reverse-ad-hominem by refering
> to his education and acquaintances

Exactly. He doesn't address facts. He uses association and accomplishment to give the illusion that he's studied the facts and as an expert his opinion should be trusted.

Presto. He just gave the same argument that all TBMs eat up--we believe because the authorities tell us so. Damn the evidence.


> 2) His use of the euphemisms "faith" and
> "inspiration" to justify his position (to those
> who look favorably on such terms, which is most
> people)

Actually, he's not necessarily appealing to authority here as I see it. He's appealing to his personal status, a protected religious status. "How dare you question my faith. It is personally inspiration and you can't question that!" Victimhood.


> 3) His appeal to the inflated membership number to
> make his church look good

Agreed. Numbers game. Strength in bunches. Cults are wacky tiny organizations that only idiots would follow. How can a cult have 14 million dodos?


> 4) Trying to make all people who respect him
> offended that anyone outside of that circle would
> consider him a "dodo"

I saw this now as an appeal to "victimhood" -- "You sit here asking me important questions which I have answered to my satisfaction and at my own time-expense, and you dare you call me a dodo?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2012 04:46PM by Jesus Smith.

I agree. For me to say that this shows that he is in a cult would be essentially using the same type of arguments that he is using to say he's not. To actually determine if he is or is not in a cult we would need to establish a clear definition of what defines a cult and objectively analyze the church to see if it meets the criteria.

According to some definitions, mormonism doesn't qualify. According to others, like the ones you gave, it does. Which definition(s) we choose is probably arbitrary, and defenders/attackers of mormonism will probably choose accordingly. I think the important thing to note here is how his arguments fail to meet his objective in convincing people that mormonism is not a cult.

we have members leaving everyday, and we don't even kill them anymore.

This would have been a better answer and funnier too.

He also said he wasn't a dodo, clearly he is.

He is entitled to his opinion...he is of course, WRONG!!!!

"I've read a couple of books and I've been to a pretty good school" means precisely nothing in our society.

Literacy in the developed world these days is pretty much a given. Plus, he probably defines BYU as a "pretty good school," which is more than a little questionable when you consider it exists, among other more reputable capacities, as an indoctrination center.

People who believe in that oh so laughable Big Bang theory have probably read more books than you and been to better (or at least comparable) schools. Explain that...

If you were one of the top dogs in a cult that had a cohort running for president of the U.S., would you admit it?

I think not!

Just try to picture the chaos that would cause. 14 mil.....I mean 4 million people falling apart. No longer giving of their time, money, and lives. Nobody would vote for Mitt, except his family. Tons of real estate up for sale all over the world. Empty churches, empty temples, SLC would come apart. Splinter groups everywhere. millions of men who all the sudden realize their power was FAKE. Millions of women who realize their husbands powers are FAKE. It would make a great movie.

Is Droopy Dawg still around?

Did he shake his jowls at the camera?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXT7thyvhcs&feature=relmfu

the thing he said about the BoA was as close to an apostolic admission of being False as I've ever seen.

Any closer and they'd be Over the Edge.

It was pathetic. As the journalist politely asked questions about the true facts; Holland hearing the answers from his mouth, realized how moronic and cult like it sounds, to anyone who hears the true facts.
Holland got so frantic and defensive in his whimpering about his education, and iq, that he lost his cool.

Now it was a lose/lose game. Holland was boxed in with the truth; so his three other options were" 1. To not answer the questions; 2. To answer with his "testimony" or testimony stories, and stay stoic and resolute in repeating his answers the same way, 3. To refuse to talk to the journalist.

Since mormons have missionaries daily stating the messages that the LDS Church is the oly true church; not answering questions is the worst option.

He really said that?? What an idiot. Guess he has never looked up the definition of a cult. A dodo????

He also has Hyrum Smith's actual Book of Mormon...oh..wait...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=0jk5Sx7J9xU

:-)

Briggy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws4vgihE3Q0

The part I quoted starts at time index 5:30, but it's worth watching the whole thing.

Nixon said, "I am not a crook."

Really, what do you expect a cult leader to say. "Yes, Mormonism is a cult. I am a leader in that cult. I know it is a cult and I want you to know it is a cult."

If it looks like a DUCK,
walks like a DUCK,
quacks like a DUCK,

Then the odds are that it is a ...

A cult, a cult,--- why would an idiotic, uneducated dodo ask such
a question?

He's right... "WE" aren't in a cult... he and his followers are!