I may just be being stupid here, forgive me if I am, but I am reading the above and I have found one detail which I don't understand.

Packham says that Joseph died in a gun battle, while he was in jail...is this true? If so how did he have a gun if he was in jail.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm just curious.

No one knows how he had a gun, but John Taylor said that he had a "pepperbox pistol" and that he shot two of the mob dead. I think Smith probably slipped a little tithing money to the jailer, which may be also how he got the privilege of sitting around drinking wine with his buddies.

whisky, tobacco and a gun were smuggled into carthage jail. this is not controversial. it is in the mormons own 'history of the church'.
despite the church hiding these facts for years, I recently got into a discussion with a TBM who tells me that they now teach this fact in institute.

http://winmillfamily.com/RichardWinmill/john_s_fullmer.htm

Carthage Jail

John S. had been living on a farm four miles from Nauvoo when, on June 25, 1844, Joseph and Hyrum were arrested. As an officer in the Nauvoo Legion, he had been on duty during the time the city was under martial law. Because of his great friendship with the two brothers, he was one of those who accompanied Joseph and Hyrum Smith to Carthage Jail. He spent the day and night before the martyrdom with them there. On the morning of the day they were assassinated, June 26th, when he was sent on an errand by the Prophet, he left his gun with the Prophet. It was this gun that Hyrum used to defend himself with later that day. The story is told that all those who were wounded with the gun that day died a horrible death.

It does appear that Hyrum is given credit for the shooting, probably to secure Joseph as Martyr.

See, I heard a different story, that both Hyrum and Joseph had pistols that were smuggled in to them, but that Hyrum was shot immediately and never got to fire a shot himself. Even the church histories explain that Joseph reached his pistol around and squeezed off several shots down the stairwell at the attackers. Locals say two men were hit and killed. In the pictures painted by that Mormon painter CCA Christensen, he shows Smith reaching around the door and firing a pistol.

Originally Cyrus Wheelock was credited, and in recent years the Fullmer family has provided evidence that it was John Fullmer. However, it is likely that they both handed out guns to Joseph and Hyrum since they both apparently had one.

Here are two accounts:
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/josephsmithsdeath.htm#History Account


This was a providential circumstance, as most other persons had been very rigidly searched. Joseph then handed the single barrel pistol which had been given him by John S. Fullmer, to his brother Hyrum, and said, "You may have use for this." Brother Hyrum observed, "I hate to use such things otto see them used." "So do I," said Joseph, "but we may have to, to defend ourselves;" upon this Hyrum took the pistol.

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/josephsmithsdeath.htm#Joseph Kills Two

John Taylor, who became the third President of the Mormon Church, made these statements concerning the death of Joseph Smith:

"Elder Cyrus H. Wheelock came in to see us, and when he was about leaving drew a small pistol, a six-shooter, from his pocket, remarking at the same time, 'Would any of you like to have this?' Brother Joseph immediately replied, 'Yes, give it to me,' whereupon he took the pistol, and put it in his pantaloons pocket.... I was sitting at one of the front windows of the jail, when I saw a number of men, with painted faces, coming around the corner of the jail, and aiming towards the stairs....

"I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, 'Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died." (History of the Church, Vol. 7, p. 100, 102 & 103)

[Web-editor: For more information see Changing World, Like a Lamb?]



http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/josephsmithsdeath.htm#Carthage Jail

Scroll up to the header "two minutes in Jail"

As he struck the floor he exclaimed emphatically, "I am a dead man." Joseph looked towards him and responded, "Oh, dear brother Hyrum!" and opening the door two or three inches with his left hand, discharged one barrel of a six shooter (pistol) at random in the entry, from whence a ball grazed Hyrum's breast, and entering his throat passed into his head, while other muskets were aimed at him and some balls hit him.

Joseph continued snapping his revolver round the easing of the door into the space as before, three barrels of which missed fire, while Mr. Taylor with a walking stick stood by his side and knocked down the bayonets and muskets which were constantly discharging through the doorway, while I stood by him, ready to lend any assistance, with another stick, but could not come within striking distance without going directly before the muzzle of the guns.

When the revolver failed, we had no more firearms, and expected an immediate rush of the mob, and the doorway full of muskets, half way in the room, and no hope but instant death from within.

--------

The facts that are consistent in the historical record are:

1. Joseph was imprisoned because he ordered the destruction of a press.
2. Joseph ordered the press's destruction (illegally) because it was going to publish details of his polygamous and polyandrous relationships.
3. Joseph, in prison drank wine.
4. Joseph removed his temple garments before going to the prison.
5. Joseph had a gun.
6. Joseph fired first.
7. Joseph was trying to escape via the window when he was shot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2012 09:19AM by Stumbling.

What is the best church-approved source that confirms the above facts, just in case this comes up with a TBM? Would it be the multi-volume History of the Church?

It wasn't like today's jails where you're strip searched, given an orange jump suit and locked behind a system of locked gates and doors, under 24-hour watch. Carthage was more like the Mayberry jail. Heck, you could even have your buddies stay with you and share a couple of bottles of wine. It was sort of like house arrest, without the house.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2012 09:32AM by Stray Mutt.

Awwwww, I thought every prison story included a Bubba. Maybe the history books just left Bubba out.

When you think about it, it wasn't all that different, back then.

Ole' Joe & his buddies gathered for one last time, kinda like Bonnie & Clyde's last run-in with the Law.

They took off their underwear.

They had some wine.

They had some guns.

They sang some songs.

Other than the dying part, it sounds like it was a really fun party.

This is out of History of the Church, 1980, Vol. 7, p. 100

"Elder Cyrus H. Wheelcock cam in to see us, and when he was about leaving he drew a small pistol, a six-shooter, from his pocket, remarking at the same time, 'Would any of you like to have this?' Brother Joseph immediately replied, "Yes. and put it in his pataloons pocket."

This is out of History of the Church, 1980, Vol. 7, p. 102-103

"I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, 'Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, aproached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pokcet, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died."

I must admit that when I borrowed the Hitory of the Church from a relative I thought I would read it all the way through. I needed a way to verify everything I was reading online. I only made it about 100 pages into volume 1 before I had to quit. Those few pages already had so many hypocrisies and contradictions. I now only use it to check quotes and to post quotes. The version I have was published in 1980.

They were coming to lynch him and they shot his brother. I'd shoot them, too. It's just not much like "going like a lamb to the slaughter." My understanding is Smith was making his escape from Nauvoo when he received word that some followers said he was deserting them. So, he turned back and went to Carthage, something Brigham Young later criticized.

... engaging in shady land deals, polygamous affairs with already married women and teenagers, blatant violation of First Amendment rights by ordering the destruction of a newspaper as town mayor and attempting to install communal economics in an aspiring nation bent on capitalism that says "Don't do that s**t and folks will likely leave you alone!"

I don't blame Joe for defending himself either, robertb. I'm just sayin' that when you intentionally place yourself in the best possible position to get your ass kicked, you probably will.

This is the Gospel according to Timothy .... Those who seek power by riding the back of the tiger usually wind-up inside.

Timothy



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2012 12:02PM by Timothy.

Timothy Wrote:

I'm just sayin' that when you
> intentionally place yourself in the best possible
> position to get your ass kicked, you probably
> will.

Amen and amen.

+100

"going like a lamb to the slaughter"

"going like a lamb with a six-shooter, and some wine, and no sacred garments to the slaughter"

Spin does kinda change the image of the so-called prophet.

I have a problem with "They were coming to lynch him." Mostly because they had come for him before, to tar & feather him, once to castrate him. Maybe they were coming to castrate him or worse, but since he started shooting, I would certainly shoot back. He was not a martyr, he was killed in a shoot out that he started.

A couple of people have written that Smith shot first, but I was under the impression that he began shooting after Hyrum had been shot.

There are also another couple of things that should be brought up.

Joe was rumored to call for help using the Masons call of distress- 'Is there no help for a widow's son?'

and

even though he had removed his sacred and protective garments, he did continue to hold a superstitious talisman in his possesion at the time of his death.

And, for what it is worth, his body was hidden, dug up, and later moved.

And, for what it is worth, his body was hidden, dug up, and later moved.

Really? I've never heard this before. Do you have more information? Thanks

ambivalentmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And, for what it is worth, his body was hidden,
> dug up, and later moved.
>
> Really? I've never heard this before. Do you have
> more information? Thanks


It is under 'interment'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith

With or without his "pepperbox" pistol

That's the proverbial "bringing a pepperbox to a gun fight"