I was at my dad's recently and we were talking about the TSCC, as we do almost every time we see each other, and he is telling me about all of the egyptologists who are saying the Book of Abraham facsimile's have been proven to be just like the prayer scrolls, and that it is further proof that JS was inspired. He went on to say that there were many things that weren't even translated because JS was going through such a turbulent time that ended in his death.

He further supposed that the fact that JS was in court 211 times during his 38 years was proof of his holiness and rightness.

I asked him if he had ever gone to mormonthink.org, like I asked him to. He said he had not.

I noticed something in the pattern of his talking to me. He went from facts(incorrect from FARMS), to his testimony, to scorn(are you smarter than all of us?). I realize that while he loves me, and thinks he is being loving in our conversation, he is being deeply condescending and disrespectful in how he spoke to me. By discounting everything that is researched if it does not come from church sources, he limits himself dramatically.

One funny point. We were talking about the age of the earth, he said the earth was put together out of old parts, and the only place on earth you could gauge the actual age of the earth in its current form was at Niagra Falls(which just happens to be 6000 years old)

As we continued to go back and forth (3 hours worth) this is what came out.

Because I did not get the same answers to prayers he did, I did not want it bad enough, and I was not humble enough, and that until I felt that all encompassing love, that comes when death is the only other option, I would never understand that no one would do anything to let go of that love once you had felt it.

I told him at that point that I no longer wanted to discuss the topic with him. We have a good relationship and even though I did not think it was possible, I did not want to be the one to tell him something that would cause him to lose that light he has.

I also told him it was hurtful and painful to listen to him talk about how I wasn't doing the church sincerely enough or long enough, and that is why I have lost my way.

I did not leave the church until I REALLY believed the church, and then looked at what I believed.

I am just glad he is not shutting me out, like many of the horror stories I have read here.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2012 01:39PM by icanseethelight.

You and yours are putting relationships first. It would be such a great thing if everyone could have that as they change directions in life.

Perhaps it would benefit you to have a direct conversation about limits regarding religious issues. My father and I actually wrote down what was, and was not agreed upon to discuss. Further, we actually wrote that our prime rule was to put our relationship first. Worked for us. He's my buddy.

HH =)

Yeah, dad is easy compared to my wife(TBM as well) but we are getting there.

Honest, open communication is a stranger in most homes, unfortunately.

But it keeps the therapists in business!

icanseethelight Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was at my dad's recently and we were talking
> about the TSCC, as we do almost every time we see
> each other, and he is telling me about all of the
> egyptologists who are saying the Book of Abraham
> facsimile's have been proven to be just like the
> prayer scrolls, and that it is further proof that
> JS was inspired.

Have him name ONE non-Mormon Egyptologist who says that. And what "prayer scrolls" is he talking about? Is this like where they search and search through, as Hugh Nibley said, "bushels of nonsense" to find SOMETHING that can be hammered into SOMETHING in the BOA? Sort of like all the "parallels" between Jesus and Elvis:

http://www.evula.com/jokes/religion/jesus_elvis.html

> He went on to say that there
> were many things that weren't even translated
> because JS was going through such a turbulent time
> that ended in his death.

Which proves what? How is something not translated evidence in favor of stuff that is "translated" totally wrong? They are now saying he didn't TRANSLATE anything but got it all by "inspiration." The only problem with that is that Joseph said the papyrus contained the writings of Abraham and Joseph. He had the Church cough up $2400 to buy them (A LOT more by today's standards after you factor in inflation). He said he was translating them. He wrote (some in his own handwriting, so you can't blame it on his scribes) an "Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar" which makes no sense to any Egyptologists, and which the Church has never published. If you want a copy you have to go to anti-Mormons.

>
> He further supposed that the fact that JS was in
> court 211 times during his 38 years was proof of
> his holiness and rightness.
>
> I asked him if he had ever gone to
> mormonthink.org, like I asked him to. He said he
> had not.
>
> I noticed something in the pattern of his talking
> to me. He went from facts(incorrect from FARMS),
> to his testimony, to scorn(are you smarter than
> all of us?). I realize that while he loves me, and
> thinks he is being loving in our conversation, he
> is being deeply condescending and disrespectful in
> how he spoke to me.

When he is being condescending and disrespectful to you, stop him and say, "Dad, you are being condescending and disrespectful to me. You are attacking my character rather than strengthening your argument."

> By discounting everything that
> is researched if it does not come from church
> sources, he limits himself dramatically.
>
> One funny point. We were talking about the age of
> the earth, he said the earth was put together out
> of old parts, and the only place on earth you
> could gauge the actual age of the earth in its
> current form was at Niagra Falls(which just
> happens to be 6000 years old)

LOL. What's his source for that howler? Ask him what his opinion of Scientology would be if he only limited his information to Scientology-approved sources.

> As we continued to go back and forth (3 hours
> worth) this is what came out.
>
> Because I did not get the same answers to prayers
> he did, I did not want it bad enough, and I was
> not humble enough, and that until I felt that all
> encompassing love, that comes when death is the
> only other option, I would never understand that
> no one would do anything to let go of that love
> once you had felt it.

Again he attacks your character. The truth or falseness of any proposition is NOT about whether you WANT it enough. As Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "Certitude is not certainty; we have been cocksure of things which turned out to be false."

I would point out that Mormonism is not about truth but about belief. That's why they are so big on "wanting in enough" and bearing testimony rather than following the evidence where it leads. And as far as humility goes, what is less humble than thinking YOUR feelings determine the truth of the universe? That is unmitigated arrogance.

> I told him at that point that I no longer wanted
> to discuss the topic with him. We have a good
> relationship and even though I did not think it
> was possible, I did not want to be the one to tell
> him something that would cause him to lose that
> light he has.
>
> I also told him it was hurtful and painful to
> listen to him talk about how I wasn't doing the
> church sincerely enough or long enough, and that
> is why I have lost my way.

Having your character attacked by a loved one is usually painful. The thing about Mormonism is that it gives people like your father a feeling of entitlement to treat you like dirt. "It is better that one man perish than a nation dwindle and perish in unbelief." In Mormonism everything (you included) is disposable in order to save the Church.

> I did not leave the church until I REALLY believed
> the church, and then looked at what I believed.
>
> I am just glad he is not shutting me out, like
> many of the horror stories I have read here.

He wants to believe. He'll find ways to do it.

Three hours of this would be excruciating. What other topics can find to talk about instead? Can you take him someplace, find something to do instead of trying to beat each other down?

We did not beat each other down. I know it sounds that way but I have always been the one that questioned the church's policies and doctrines, and I have always enjoyed it. It normally does not bother me, I believe that if someone is offensive, and they mean to be, that responding to it lets them win, and if they did not mean it to be offensive(which my dad did not) then it is not worth the relationship to worry about it. So basically, I am never offended. But it is important he realizes how it sounds to me, which is why I told him.

We did talk about my history of questioning, and whether it was right or not, to which I replied:

"If JS(whom he idolizes) had never questioned, you wouldn't have the ONE TRUE CHURCH IN THE MULTIVERSE now would you?"

It is deeply disrespectful for your father to decide you weren't "sincere" enough and you should call him on that one. I'm not saying to start a fight or anything but if he says anything like that again (where he decides he can determine your feelings, commitment or other internal processes) point out to him how inappropriate that is.

Ask him, "Dad, if I were to tell you that you simply won't see how untrue the Mormon Church is because you aren't honest enough with yourself how would you feel? I imagine you'd feel pretty angry because I would be telling you that your own assessment of your emotions and thought processes are wrong and that I know what goes on in your head better than you do. When you say I was not sincere enough you are being insulting to me. You are discounting my honest effort and you are telling me that I am either lying about that effort or don't actually know what I've done. Either way, it's a slap in the face. Please be respectful enough to accept my assessment of my own efforts and feelings as I accept yours."

Seriously, it's not okay for anyone to tell you what you think or feel. It's a form of abuse. (I realize your father did not mean it that way -- I've heard plenty of Mormons say similar garbage and I'm sure your father didn't think twice about repeating it.)

Just the mere fact that he thinks the earth is 6,000 years old means that he is not in a logical place. Reasoning with a person like that would be more than difficult.

I have realized that on this journey of non-mormonism I will have to take the high road. Often these people have been indoctrinated since birth, I was one of these people.
As we all know leaving this church is hard, TBM's can't
understand. Don't blame them just love them. Show them what they cant show you.
I left the church because they can't accept what is percieved as weakness, but I can. I still see it as weakness, maybe I do judge them. But I can accept that we have different opinions.