Posted by:
Sarony
(
)
Date: December 07, 2010 02:53PM
nomomomo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh f***-this just pisses me off. All the guilt
> and not paying of real bills, and it was just on
> the surplus?
>
Yes, the surplus is all there ever was support for in modern scripture. Take a look at Holland's speech on tithing.
Appendix B – Jeffrey Holland’s Speech on Tithing
In the October 2001 General Conference, Apostle Jeffrey Holland delivered a speech on tithing.
Apostle James Talmage published a brochure entitled “The Lord’s Tenth” that speaks to the harmony of scripture we have discussed. Holland’s lengthy quotation of Talmage, as it appears in the November 2006 Ensign, is so riddled with ellipses and square brackets, one wonders what Talmage actually wrote.
I checked.
Holland’s quotation is not what Talmage meant, particularly regarding the amount to be tithed. Talmage referred to surplus. Holland referred to ten percent. Could Holland’s quotation of Talmage cause one to misunderstand Talmage?
Perhaps.
Talmage’s writing supports current official policy and the two scriptures cited above, but does Holland’s quotation of Talmage do the same?
Below is a full text, alternating-paragraph quotation of both Talmage and Holland.
I have highlighted differences with ALL CAPS, and I have set forth enumerated comments. Talmage’s text comes from “The Lord’s Tenth, Pamphlet, 1968”, as cited by Holland. Elder Talmage passed away in 1933. The year 1968 must be a re-publication date.
(1)TALMAGE: “You have need of many things in this world-food, clothing, and shelter for your family AND YOURSELF, the common comforts of life, AND THE THINGS THAT SHALL BE CONDUCIVE TO REFINEMENT, TO DEVELOPMENT, TO RIGHTEOUS ENJOYMENT. YOU DESIRE MATERIAL POSSESSIONS TO USE FOR THE ASSISTANCE OF OTHERS AND THEREBY GAIN GREATER BLESSINGS FOR YOURSELF AND YOURS.
(1)HOLLAND: ‘You have need of many things in this world—food, clothing, and shelter for your family … , the common comforts of life. …
(1)COMMENT: Holland leaves the individual out: “YOURSELF”, and the following needs: “THE THINGS THAT SHALL BE CONDUCIVE TO REFINEMENT, TO DEVELOPMENT, TO RIGHTEOUS ENJOYMENT”. In harmony with the above-cited scriptures, Talmage taught these are legitimate needs. But lest Holland give a hint that tithing should be calculated after needs are met, he has dropped these lines. In other words, it appears the Church used to semi-officially (Talmage) clarify the tithing requirement based upon a recognition that personal and other legitimate needs were not to be tithed. Semi-officially (Holland), no more.
(2)TALMAGE: NOW, you shall have the means of acquiring these things; but remember they are mine, and I require of you the payment of a rental upon that which I give into your hands. However, your life will not be one of uniform increase IN SUBSTANCE AND POSSESSIONS; YOU WILL HAVE YOUR LOSSES, AS WELL AS YOUR GAIN; YOU WILL HAVE YOUR PERIODS OF TROUBLE AS WELL AS YOUR TIMES OF PEACE. SOME YEARS WILL BE YEARS OF PLENTY UNTO YOU, AND OTHERS WILL BE YEARS OF SCARCITY.
(2)HOLLAND: You shall have the means of acquiring these things; but remember they are mine, and I require of you the payment of a rental upon that which I give into your hands. However, your life will not be one of uniform increase …
(2)COMMENT: Holland truncates the quotation probably because phrases like “years of plenty” “years of scarcity” flesh out the meaning of an increase, that tithing should be paid after a calculation of “surplus properties” (D&C 119:5).
(3) TALMAGE: AND, NOW, instead of doing as mortal landlords do-require you to CONTRACT WITH THEM to pay in advance, whatever your fortunes or your prospects may be-you shall pay me NOT IN ADVANCE, BUT when you have received; and you shall pay me in accordance with what you receive. If it so be that in one year your income is abundant, then YOU CAN AFFORD TO PAY ME a little more; and if it be so that the next year is one of distress and your income is not what it was, then YOU SHALL PAY ME LESS; AND SHOULD IT BE THAT YOU ARE REDUCED TO THE UTMOST PENURY SO THAT YOU HAVE NOTHING COMING IN, YOU WILL PAY ME NOTHING.”
(3) HOLLAND: [so] instead of doing as mortal landlords do—requir[ing] you to … pay in advance, whatever your fortunes or … prospects may be—you shall pay me … [only] when you have received; and you shall pay me in accordance with what you receive. If it so be that in one year your income is abundant, then … [YOUR 10 PERCENT will be a] little more; and if it be so that the next year is one of distress and your income is not what it was, then … [YOUR 10 PERCENT will be] less. … [WHATEVER YOUR CIRCUMSTANCE, THE TITHE WILL BE FAIR.]’
(3)COMMENT:
FIRST, Holland deletes the phrase “not in advance” since that contradicts current declarations to “pay the Lord first” or even as Gordon B. Hinckley suggested to pay even in the face of disaster; the story of the woman who needed to pay her tuition, but paid tithing instead. (Gordon B. Hinckley, “We Walk by Faith,” Ensign, May 2002, 72)
SECOND, Holland inserts “YOUR 10 PERCENT” where Talmage clearly did not write “ten percent”. Rather, Talmage’s statement is in harmony with the First Presidency letter dated March 19, 1970 which states in part, ” We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.”
THIRD, Holland pulls the following “quotation” out of thin air: “whatever your circumstance, the tithe will be fair”. The problem is his delivery at General Conference made that statement appear to be quoted from Talmage. It is not. And how can Holland’s tithe, which is a regressive tax, be fair for a destitute individual who is struggling to support themselves and their dependents?
FOURTH, Holland drops the phrase, “you shall pay me nothing.” The reason is this would have destroyed impetus of the story he told of the destitute Mary Fielding Smith. Because, to quote Talmage, she was “reduced to the utmost penury so that [she had] nothing coming in”. An anecdote like the Mary Fielding Smith story, even delivered by an apostle at General Conference, carries less authority than the scriptures cited above, and also and less authority than a signed statement of the First Presidency, as cited above.
(4) TALMAGE: Have you ever found a landlord of earth who was willing to make that kind of a contract with you? When I consider the liberality of it all, and the consideration that my Lord has had for me, I feel in my heart that I could scarcely raise my countenance to his heaven above if I tried to defraud him out of that just rental.
(4) HOLLAND: “Have you ever found a landlord on earth who was willing to make that kind of [EQUITABLE] contract with you?” Elder Talmage asks. “When I consider the liberality of it all,” he says, “… I feel in my heart that I could scarcely raise my countenance to … Heaven … if I tried to defraud [GOD] out of that [WHICH IS RIGHTFULLY HIS].”
(4)COMMENT: Holland’s insertion of “EQUITABLE”, “GOD”, and “WHICH IS RIGHTFULLY HIS” may inspire awe and guilt. It also minimizes the thought that one might have an “indifferent” or neutral landlord (See Matthew 5:45).
Summary. Talmage meant “pay on your surplus”. Did Holland mean “pay ten percent across the board, regardless of your income”?