Anyone else had this experience?

Scenario One: I was at the local fair and ran into someone who had been in the EQ presidency with me a two or three years back. He comes up to me and says "Hi." We shake hands, ask each other how it's going, and my kid tugs on my arm. I turn to him. Answer his question quickly. Then I turn back to continue my conversation with the TBM and he's gone, like a bullet, whoosh. I don't see him anywhere.

Scenario Two: I am manning a table at a local school fundraiser. Lots of people milling about. And just like at the fair another TBM walks by, says "Hi," we shake hands, and before I can get another word out he keeps walking.

These guys were my church friends. I'd still do anything for them, but I don't think they know that. My mostly TBM wife says that they just don't know what to say--they don't want to "offend."

I think I get it. They're basically scared and uncomfortable. I just think it's a tad weird. If these were old work mates, I don't think they'd be running off so fast. If they were old friends from school, I don't think they'd be jetting away. But the church creates such a barrier. The Church of Jesus Christ (™) shows its members crippled in relating to ex-mormons. It'd be funny if it weren't so sad.

Again, my wife says they keep the interaction to a minimum because they don't want to offend. That's a convenient explanation because then I'm the problem. I think they don't know what to make of me: happy, normal, no tatoos or piercings, non-drug addicted, non-divorced (so far!), and still employed.

I can't say across the board, as others like Peregrine at Postmormon.org says he has, that I have "normal conversations with TBMs" yet. There are things that I think and feel and believe that I can't say to them, and that's why I have much richer friendships with my "worldly" heathen or just garden variety Baptist and Methodist and Catholic and Episcopal and Lutheran and Jewish and Buddhist friends. We can talk about different kinds of beer, the love of a good cigar, the attractiveness of attractive people, the merits of various religions, Prop 8, Democratic candidates, a bawdy joke, or a joke about a Scotsman coming out of a pub in winter carrying a bottle of scotch. He slips on a patch of ice, falling down, feels something wet, and says worriedly, "I hope that's just blood!" I can't even share an adult or rated M or TV-14 joke with TBMs. They're too good for that, too "righteous" (™), too pure, too beyond such "mess of pottage" frivolities or vanities. Man, I start thinking about some of those suit and tie a$shats and just want to stop typing and get away from the bull$hit perfect people.

There are TBMs (or people somewhat close to TBM status) that I can have relatively "normal conversations with." They'll talk about things that fall between my atheism and their "drug of choice" (Peregrine)--"forever families."

Maybe the ones who walk off so fast are the ones whose social skills are weak (Peregrine again)--they really don't know how to engage someone who has left the fold, someone who doesn't compute or factor into their protected or constricted view of the world. I get it: They're in a 19th century "tribe" or "clan" or cultic "mafia."

The black and white, either/or, us/them polarized thinking is very much alive in the "Church of Jesus Christ" (™). "In" the world, not "of" it, okay--but not afraid "of" it. Jesus wasn't afraid of worldly people. I guess if you want a way to know who is strong in their faith and who isn't, then leaving the church is a way to separate the truly "Christlike" (™) from the camp followers.

I realize I think the church is a big fat cheating scam--I'm not unbiased at all on the question of the church--but taking good people and making them have such phobic reactions to other human beings who happen to no longer belong to their club anymore just doesn't make sense coming, as it does, from putative "followers of Christ" (™).

Even some family members will only accept you on the condition that you are an active happy member of the organization. As a middle aged convert, raised in a fairly liberal Protestant tradition, that blows my mind. The very idea that people would chuck family members over church membership would have struck me ten or twenty years ago, as it does now, as over-the-top, mean-spirited, and crazy--something only the worst sorts of fundamentalist zealots could do.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2010 10:54PM by derrida.

wiser and of stronger character. And yet they are so awkward and uncomfortable around people who are different than them.

Isn't somebody who has everything figured out supposed to be confident and at ease?

They have been trained to think you are going to take them down the wrong path. You are a risky individual.... don't ya know? Sure you can still see a friendship, but that handshake is only for them to be cool on the surface. Deep underneath they do not care to be around you. What if someone saw them? Heaven forbid!!! That is your old life. Just say hi and don't even bother with a handshake if they treat you like that.

You described it well.

1. As representatives of God's chosen church, they feel they must punish the bad behavior of those who leave. Deep inside, they might hope that you'll want to re-earn their warmth.

2. They're awkward socially, especially with those who don't seem to respect their religion.

3. They're jealous of those with the courage to leave.

4. They're nervous around anyone they think is under the control of Satan.

5. They're stressed and busy because of their callings and mormon expectations. They don't have time for anyone who doesn't want to help with those things.

I truthfully don't mind the shunning. What bothers me is when they turn around and go into their harassing reactivation bevaiors.

It was about a year after I left the Church in Minnesota, and my then wife and I went to Champps Americana for dinner. We met another couple we knew from the ward in the lobby. The wife was very nervous and chatty with us, and the husband glared at me with obvious hate in his eyes. This was the ward "funny guy" so it was a new side to his personality that I hadn't seen before. We didn't want to talk to these people, so we disengaged at the first opportunity.

So, we're eating dinner, having chicken sandwiches, fries and diet coke, and the Mormon woman comes over to our table. Before she got there, I turned to our server who was standing nearby and asked if she would please get our check quickly. The Mormon woman was in tears and kept saying "I'm so sorry! I'm so sorry you were offended. Was it me? Was it me?" We didn't speak to her. Our server arrived with our check, and we left. Thankfully, I never saw those Mormons again.

We were so embarrassed! These were very prominent members of the ward and stake, and I couldn't believe how badly they behaved in public. They just couldn't leave it alone.

While I'm at it, here's another experience I had a few years ago. It was about three or four years after my entire family had resigned from the Mormon church and moved across the country. I had been to the LDS Family History center to look up some ancestors. One had been a prominent member of the Church in Brigham Young's time. I had ordered a microfilm and pulled up his mission call, and it had Young's signature at the bottom. I was pleased by the find and had it printed out. The woman there asked if I was a Mormon, and I said oh heavens no. She bore her testimony on the spot, and I paid for the print and left never to return.

Then we started getting calls from some Mormon, and we sighed and said here we go again. We lived in a gated community, and he could not get in. He arrived at the gate one day, and the guard called. My mother-in-law picked up the phone and said that we didn't know this person, and we did not want to see him. He came to the gate a few weeks later, and I told the guard that he was never to let this person in. This is a standing order, and they don't need to call and ask. So, it's all cool.

Then my wife had some house guests from Utah, which is another story that I won't get into. They attended church that Sunday, and they ran into the Mormon gate crasher. He found out where they were staying and then he and his wife tagged along with them back to our house! I met him at the door, shook his hand and said "Slumming?" I wasn't smiling. He didn't seem to notice that my wife and I wanted their heads on the end of a pole.

So, we sat in the living room and had a conversation with these people. They were inconsistent in their stories and they seemed to be running on adrenalin - not because we wanted to kill them but because we were ex-Mormon. After exactly one hour, they got up to leave. We stood, and I followed them to the door. Then Mormon gate crasher turned and gave me an unexpected hug! I stood there with my mouth open. Then they left. Unbelievable! Thankfully, I never saw them again.

Mormons are weird when you're in the Church and even weirder when you're out. I would really prefer just not to see them again at all.

to punish you for leaving their church.

Mormons get caught doing stuff like that, and it's big trouble for them. After the third time, I filed a police report and the neighbors were starting to shout at Mormons when they came by.

It's the weirdness that I don't know what to do about. What do you do about a group of people who think they've been commanded by God to make public fools of themselves?

Makurosu--I've had the "hug" experience about two or three conferences ago. Two prominent HPs in the ward (HPs in their early 40s) came to my door suited up not many months after I'd stopped going to church. Of course it was conference weekend and the Mormons get stoked by all the solemn preaching. Now I had served in Bishoprics with these guys. They came to my door unannounced. It's Sunday and I'm barefoot, in shorts, wearing a t-shirt, reading posts on RFM. They want to come in. I said "No" (thank you RFM posters!). Then they bore testimony about the need to be right with the church to get ordinances. I said, "Thanks for coming." I liked these guys. They are good if narrow-minded men. I told them I appreciated their visit. Then one of them got all teary and asked if he could hug me. Jesus H. bloody christ on a piece of bread. Fine. We hugged. They left.

I was rushing with adrenaline. Being able to tell these guys "No" was a big deal. Then it started to be clear to me how indoctrinated I was--the bodily reaction, the tingling nerves, the fear, the anger, the physical effort it took to be civil. The church definitely does a number on people, at least people like me (and I was a mid-life convert for god's sake!), that violates their "agency," their freedom to choose, their freedom of religion. How can people so conditioned or indoctrinated be said to be free to choose? Without that freedom, they are enslaved, shackled. Then you bind family into that and you've got a wicked repressive means of controlling people. That's when I basically saw the church as a cult.

derrida Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Then one of them got all
> teary and asked if he could hug me. Jesus H.
> bloody christ on a piece of bread. Fine. We
> hugged. They left.
>
>
After the hug, you should have asked for a kiss, then after he refused called him a big tease!

Personally I hope the "meetups" with TBMs become more brief. But if you want longer convos here are a few suggestions to make the TBM more comfortable;

1. Maybe it's your breath, try a tic-tac.
2. different cologne(see above).
3. BYU Football season tickets, insures they will be your friend for 3 hours, on 6 saturdays.
4. Initiante the "sure sign of the nail" with the handshake.
5. Speak only in King James english, "Yea I sayeth unto you I am welleth."
6. Ask him to give the Invocation for the convo.
7. Speak to him in a "still, small, voice".
8. Tell him your son will be 8 years old next week.
9. Tell him you know where he can get a new minivan cheap.
10. Sing your conv to the tune of "Come, Come Ye Saints"

These 2 guys are assbags! Good riddance.

derrida Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was rushing with adrenaline. Being able to tell
> these guys "No" was a big deal. Then it started
> to be clear to me how indoctrinated I was--the
> bodily reaction, the tingling nerves, the fear,
> the anger, the physical effort it took to be
> civil. The church definitely does a number on
> people, at least people like me (and I was a
> mid-life convert for god's sake!), that violates
> their "agency," their freedom to choose, their
> freedom of religion. How can people so
> conditioned or indoctrinated be said to be free to
> choose? Without that freedom, they are enslaved,
> shackled. Then you bind family into that and
> you've got a wicked repressive means of
> controlling people. That's when I basically saw
> the church as a cult.


That's an interesting point. It has taken me a long time to have forgettable conversations with Mormons and see them as the garden variety religious nuts they are, rather than people I needed to make any explanations to. My ex-wife used to cuss them out at the door. She would say that the only thing these people understand is the F word. I think now that she was dealing with her own fear of them.

Still, I think people who are that tightly controlled by fear triggers and mind-bending doctrines pounded into them from childhood are potentially dangerous. I think Mormons are emotionally disturbed. I see it in my own Mormon background. I have had a lot of long time friends who have forgotten me at the drop of a hat after I left the Church. Who does that? That isn't normal, and I want to be around normal people. That's why I really would prefer to avoid Mormons completely if at all possible.

I have also had the "TBM-to-exmo hug." It is a very real thing.

For me it happened when I was openly out of the church for a few years, 22 or 23 years old. While on a road trip, I stayed at my aunt and uncles for a couple nights. It landed on a Sunday. Of course they invited me to church, even offering to find me some clothes to wear.

I knew they knew I was out of the church but I had never had that conversation with them. I said I would rather stay at the house and read a book. They insisted but I was firm.

When they got home from church, my aunt walked toward me and without saying a word gave me a big hug with a heavy sad face.

and they have been indoctrinated to believe that people who leave the church are Evil incarnate (how could you turn your back on God?).

Now we are perfectly happy to answer that question, and that's why they are afraid. Afraid of the answer because truth cooties could leak out of your mouth, fly through the air, enter their mouth and voila! make it harder for them to believe the already-proved-fraudulent, or the impossible, or the immoral.

Which they have to hear people aver in Testimonkey Meeting once a month less reality get a grip on their own testimonkey.


Anagrammy

when I realized that mor(m)ons seem to be obsessed with the whole idea of offense.

"Did you leave because you were offended?"

"I'm so sorry if I have offended anyone here." (usually while bearing a weepy testimony)

"I'll be offended if so and so drinks a cup of coffee."

and I'm sure you could all add other 'offensive' ideas!

Things always seem to come down to the idea of someone being offended.

What's up with that?

Yes, what is up with that? The question of being offended is such a huge meme or commonplace of psychological defense among church members. If you leave, you were offended. If someone else left, that person must been offended. It's the go-to explanation for why people have problems with the church. The purpose it serves is that it deflects any idea that people might leave because of problems with the treacherous history of the church or because they became fed up with the way the church treats serious spiritual seekers or people who don't "fit in" or because of the way the church only exists by sacrificing members' critical reason and binding them, ALONG WITH THEIR FAMILIES, to lifelong and demanding indoctrination and servitude.

There is no real freedom there.

I had a weird experience with a TBM one Sunday a few months after my husband decided to resign from the church. It was Christmas four years ago and my husband and I were living on an Army post. My husband had sent in his letter of resignation that past May and was away on a business trip. I was at home alone, decorating the tree, when I noticed that we needed a new string of lights. I took a quick trip to the PX/BX to get the lights and when I came back, there was a car parked on the access lane behind our house. It was blocking my driveway and the two parking spaces we claimed on the other side of the access lane. There was no one in the car.

I sat in the lane for a minute, then drove across my yard so I could park in my spot. Then I went in the house and went back to decorating the tree. I happened to look out the window and there was a guy standing there in a suit, obviously fresh from church and looking very nervous. He asked me if I was Mrs. C. I said I was. Then he asked me if my husband was trying to "get out of the church". I said he was. Then he said, "Please tell him we're taking care of it." Then he got in his car and took off like a bat out of hell. He never even asked me if my husband was home. A few days later, six months after my husband had sent in his resignation, he finally got confirmation from Greg Dodge.

It did occur to me that maybe he was so nervous because our neighbor was a lawyer and religious proselyting is not allowed on military installations. But it was definitely a weird run in. I never saw the guy again, but my neighbor's wife, an observant Catholic, said the guy's kids played soccer with her kids... and that they seemed to shy away from her and the prominent cross she wore around her neck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2010 09:45PM by knotheadusc.