I had a conversation with my sister a couple of weeks ago that made me think.

She told me she feels like I never talk about anything of real value anymore - that I just talk about what we recently bought, or what I'm going to do with what room to decorate - that I've seemed really superficial lately. (I think an objective observer would say that these are the sort of things that probably always made up 80% of our conversations even before I left the Church - but I am not an objective observer.) It led me to say that I didn't think she wanted to hear anything else that I had to say. I probably didn't explain myself very well, but I think she got the point: Anything other than the superficial crap that's going on in my life is basically Mormon history, social theories that pertain to Mormonism, etc.


She made the point, and she's right - that it wasn't really fair of me to assume that. Aside from our very first conversation about this crap, she has listened and supposedly processed everything I've related to her. However, in this last conversation, she said "I've sought my own answers to everything you've told me, and I've found them. It's all actually strengthened my testimony."

And that's where my disconnect is. Why am I telling you anything then? This is all going right over your head, you refuse to see why it's significant. Why? Because you seek your "answers" in the same places that you've been indoctrinated to believe are the ONLY source of reliable answers - in the scriptures/Ensigns/LDS.org/prayer. I wouldn't argue with prayer, except that it directly relates back to the other things I listed. Pray, and then consult your Mormon scriptures, with the Mormon answers for everything. Every one of us can adapt a passage or a quote to fit our situation.

But I'm getting off track.

She made me realize that I've absolutely been on the defensive about my apostasy. We haven't had a single person try to shun us in any way, as far as I can tell. I know our families and close friends are disappointed, worried, and uncomfortable about our difference in beliefs, but none of them have shown any negative behavior toward us.

I, on the other hand, bristle every time that I get something from my believing family members that in any way props Mormonism up. I get fired up so fast from the frustration of them being blind to all of the issues - but my frustration has more to do with the fact that they all think I'm lost and deceived. What I speculate that they'll tell their children about me and my family. The perpetual indoctrination, and how that is indirectly making people like us the bad guys.

Now that I've ranted, and probably didn't set my question up very well...

(Let me first say that I trust that there are many who have had crazier families than me, and that you've had GENUINE awful situations of shunning and all that) But in general...

If you really stop and think about it, and take a close look at yourself and your own feelings and actions --- how many cases of true shunning and persecution actually take place? How much of it is just US, expecting to be shunned and persecuted?

I know that I just expect others to feel the same way that I did as a Mormon. I took things pretty seriously, and I know damn well my family does, too. So I just assume they're thinking the things about me that *I* would have thought about me.

I'm not trying to make any kind of statement. Just raising a question for discussion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2012 11:55PM by sdee.

Your mileage may vary.. .

I risk losing my marriage, my family should I "out" myself and my disbelief .. . I am confident of this based on conversations I've had with them.

My best friend of almost 40 years is practically disowned by her family for being inactive. They play favorites with their grandchildren - those who go on missions, graduate from seminary, marry in the temple are showered with attention, gifts and money. Those who do not - are not.

Does it happen to everyone? I'd say no. Does it happen to some? I'd say, sadly, yes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2012 12:05AM by epsynonia.

It is just the way we are wired. After intial fire works with family, community and a continued uneasy truce at work, I don't have much to complain about, but it is still uncomfortable and still on the defensive I suppose.

If people disapprove of you even nicely, it is difficult not to feel bad, protective or defensive.

I'm not a big fan of Dr. Phil, but he does use an analogy that I think rings true for me.

Paraphrasing here. If you get a bad sunburn, and someone keeps bumping into you, you're way more sensitive than if you'd never been burnt.

I know I've become almost hypervigilant about anything that even hints of Mormonism. I'm still finding my comfort zone, and so are some family members. It's like we're in the negotiation process for where the boundaries are going to be. It's not easy. I still am not sure how it's all going to shake out.

Marrying my DH brought me into close proximity to his TBM family once we moved the sixty minutes from where I had been living before. Pre-marriage the kids and parents were wonderful, smiling and laughing and inviting their father/us to lots of events. Post-marriage they seemed to loose interest instantly.

Our move into their midst 2.5 years ago had confirmed that disinterest and shunning. We happen upon family members as they celebrate a birthday (everyone but us present) when we go to dinner (small town). FB postings extoll the virtues of DH's sisters', but he is never mentioned.

To be fair, in person, when no one is around, his parents are lovely people - especially his mother. But they do not acknowledge me as their daughter-in-law in public either.

This is my nevermo experience - one that I thank this board for putting into perspective as I was so hurt and perplexed when their behavior did an about-face. Now I do not take things personally. DH is the one who lost his family for making a life-affirming decision for himself; I just inherited his situation. Shunning and persecution are realities in our life - no doubt it happens.

Yes! I was shunned. I have 4 sisters who will have nothing at all to do with me. Bottom line I don't want to be mormon, everything was perfect until that day. It was very hurtful and I think shunning is a form of abuse. I have to look at the positive side...I rescued my children, never blessed, never brainwashed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2012 01:56AM by libertad.

Um, Sdee, the shunning, love-bombing, and threats were very REAL. No, it wasn' just me. I did not leave the cult because I was offended. The Mormon church is a hoax, and a scam to get money from people, and that is the truth.

I left quietly however. I never in my life did anything really wrong, except to have my husband abandon us. My children were great kids. We did not deserve the abuse we got while we were members, and after we left. (Actually, it was much worse when we were members!)

But the actual number of Mormons who frequently knocked on our door, called us, harassed us, is a FACT. I was threatened and accused in my own home, in front of my own children. My children can bear witness of all that happened. There were witnesses to the abuse my children suffered--but no one did anything--no one admitted to any wrong-doing. So, I took my children, and we ran.

Take a closer look. It is not us, it is the Mormons who do the persecuting. Their actions were real--nasty and mean--and they will never be able to back-pedal, the way they back-pedal everything else.

Forestpal, my intent was not to debunk anyone's claims of being shunned. I understand that some cases are very real and undeniable.

All I'm saying is that in some cases (as in my own), SOMETIMES, we jump the gun a little bit because we're on edge about it, and we're anticipating being treated poorly (the way we can recall inadvertently learning to treat people who leave.)

Thanks for all the comments and input. Good stuff.

It's funny that there's this thread going on right now, as in the New York Chasidic community, there's a major problem with this happening. The only difference is that this is happening within that community because of complaints filed about child molestation. Here's an example:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/10/nyregion/ultra-orthodox-jews-shun-their-own-for-reporting-child-sexual-abuse.html?_r=1

I appreciate your post sdee. Very thought provoking. Once you have been robbed every sound in the house suddenly sets of the adrenaline. Once you have been bullied, what may lie around every corner is daunting.

I do think the shunning thing is much more complex. Not all shunning is overt. To play off a popular book series right now, there are fifty different shades of it.

I found with my family a lot of love and acceptance with an underlying current of "we love you but,you can stay if you keep your thoughts to yourself, but if you don't, you can't be here--we can't chance having the kids around you and you must never question your patriarch father, ever." It was never said and faces were never turned away from me but it was there.

So on a deeper level which I trust now, I knew they only wanted a shell of me after that to make appearances at family gatherings, even if they didn't really understand that.

You know what I mean by 50 shades of shunning?

+1

Yes, I think I get you.

My m.i.l. is doing it to my husband, I believe. I don't think they've spoke in..maybe 2 months, and I think it used to be every few weeks, at least. He also just had a birthday and though she did text him and suggested skyping, this was the first year I can recall him NOT receiving a card in the mail. To be fair, I realize that she's deeply hurt by his change in belief (although, that pain riles me up, too. When I mentioned on my blog that the changes taking place in my belief system were making me happier than I've ever been, she told my husband it really hurt her feelings. I'm trying to rise above it, but my first inclination is "What the hell does that have to do with YOU?") so she just doesn't feel as motivated to speak to him or have contact with him. I mean, it goes both ways - there's a huge gap between all of us and our believing families - not having the same Mormon beliefs, no matter what, creates a rift, it seems.

Meaning, I'm "shunning" them just as much as they're shunning me. I don't want to talk to them because they're frustrating as hell.

My f.i.l., on the other hand, is the opposite. Lots of contact, much of it having to do with church. I think I prefer the shunning.

Unfortunately, my husband is a lot more sensitive than me as far as his relationship with his parents go, so I think it's pretty hurtful.

(Gosh, I'm a rambler.)

Back to the 50 shades: I think that even when they try to be nice and move past it, there's always that rift. So whether their shunning is intentional or not, it always comes across in subtle/subconscious ways. And I know on my part, this goes both ways.

*put in correct place



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2012 01:57PM by sdee.

This is a fascinating question that I'm doing a lot of personal introspection on.

First, I think a number of people truly are shunned and/or persecuted.

However, a lot of us like you and & I are treated well. Even so, I think we are all naturally in a heightened state of sensitivity. We naturally have a "chip on our shoulder" because we feel vulnerable.

We know no matter how they act, how they feel underneath that. We've spent a lifetime watching people talk about how sad they are that their children are "astray" but they have hope they will come back on the path. We have spent a lifetime hearing that if you lose your testimony it is because you did something wrong and you always have to be on guard.

We feel isolated and like the oddball.

So yeah, I think it's pretty difficult to not be hyper sensitive to feeling shunned and/or persecuted. And when truly hurtful things are done, I think the hurt is amplified by our state. For me I think part of recovery is learning to let this hypersensitivity go.

I think part of recovery from Mormonism is dealing with these emotions and learning how to deal with them and have them not impact us as much. I don't think I will ever get over completely that I know my whole TBM family thinks I'm on the wrong track, that they are sad for me, and that it is somehow indicative of something wrong with me. However, I'm trying to learn to deal with this and minimize it's impact on me and our relationships.

Also in my journey of recovery is dealing with my frustration that they don't "see it". It just seems so obvious. Part of that frustration may be frustration with myself for not seeing it sooner and projecting it on to them. Part of it is seeing that they are hurting themselves for believing that way - and I try to use that to emphasize that is also how they feel about me and it is out of love that they feel that way.

When I have conversations with TBMs I try to set myself mentally so that I just appreciate being allowed to talk about my beliefs and concerns and not have the value of the conversation have anything to do with converting them to my way of thinking. I try to appreciate that they are willing to listen and at least take it seriously enough to look at and evaluate it even if it just strengthens their testimony.

Easier said than done.

Part of me also remembers that I thought I discounted things and thought things strengthened my testimony but eventually it all added up to "this can't be true." So I try to be patient. I also try to realize what a hugely difficult thing it would be for them to change their beliefs - internal conflict, social conflict, family conflict, loss of identity, etc.

The fact that your sister is bringing it up is a huge invitation to re-establish that intimacy and her saying - I want to have it with you despite our different beliefs. It's really not strange at all that the intimacy would be strained - especially on your side with the many feelings of discomfort. It is awesome that she has come to you and opened the door to re-establishing it. I definitely am struggling with some of the same things with my family and I see that it is me mostly holding it back because I am uncomfortable.

bc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think part of recovery from Mormonism is dealing
> with these emotions and learning how to deal with
> them and have them not impact us as much. I don't
> think I will ever get over completely that I know
> my whole TBM family thinks I'm on the wrong track,
> that they are sad for me, and that it is somehow
> indicative of something wrong with me. However,
> I'm trying to learn to deal with this and minimize
> it's impact on me and our relationships.


This sums up my experience pretty well. Other than one pretty uncomfortable conversation with my parents right before I got married, everything has been pretty good.

We have lovely family parties with my extended family, they are able to talk about real life and not just mormon stuff, and I know that they all genuinely like nevermo DH (some like him much more than their own TBM RM SILs)

The hard part is every once in a while catching that sad look in their eye, and knowing that even though they never say it out loud, they are all sad for me and are just hoping that I'll get pregnant, snap out of it, and drag the fam back to church.

YES, spot on bc and foggy. I said something along these lines to my sister. "You may not actively try to get me back, but you guys will always be sad that we don't believe. Right?"

And it's the fact that they feel that way that seems to drive the route our relationships can take.

It's not fun to go through life knowing that your family will never again be proud of you for anything or feel a close connection, all because you've abandoned craziness. It's like no matter how successful we are (in any aspect), no matter how much good we do, no matter how good our kids are - it will all be for naught, just because we don't believe in Mormonism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2012 01:58PM by sdee.

>>your family will never again be proud of you for anything

At least in my case that isn't true. I think they still see other good things I do besides the disagreement with the church - but I the rift you are talking about will still always be there.

I posted on this earlier but have something else to add. My family also started in on my children. Let me back up...my mom would play the victim, oh my oldest I wish she hadn't gone astray, will she ever come back, poor me poor me. So my kids were little I would still let them go as long as she didn't take them to church. Well now my kids are old enough to talk and all the cousins that are thier age my kids are told those are thier friends because they don't want the TBM kids to know these are thier cousins and they have another aunt that left the church. So all this time I think I am being the bigger person letting my kids have a relationship with cousins and they are all being told oh no these are your friends not cousins.
She never takes them to church services because she knows I will flip but my oldest told me the other day that they go to grandmas church to play waterbaloons and another time to fly a helicopter and play basketball. It's like she filling thier little memories of amazing times at grandmas church so when they are older they will check it out. I asked my son o she didn't take you to the park to do all that? He said she was going to but couldn't remember where the park is. and she had the balls to say I can't remember where the park is. It's on the Way to the church!

sorry I went on a rant, but not telling my kids this is not thier family because my kids aren't mormon is shunning at it's worst.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2012 02:08PM by libertad.