Hi there Wonderer and welcome to the RfM board. Seeing as you're relatively new (9 days) and your posts are about as difficult to comprehend as anything I've ever seen here; I've decided to go ahead and do what it is that I do. Analyse. I wasn't going to do this, but your post about the "masturbating atheist" was just too good to let go and I'm well into my second bottle of Chardonnay.

This may be long so I'm going to put some nice dashes under the next paragraph to indicate what to skip for our ADD readers.

Let's get right to it shall we?

------------------------------------------------------
First off, you're a good writer despite the fact that it's sometimes difficult to figure out what the point is that you're making. I suspect you are educated. At a minimum you have good grammar, syntax and spelling.

Your first post was nine days ago when you replied to MJ's last phone call about someone you knew who had also committed suicide. You said, "I had a similar defining moment. It was with a friend of a friend who was gay and who took his life. He was not an ExMormon as far as I know and lived in another state. I interacted with him briefly and I think he was dead within a couple months. Another friend of a friend I interacted with a few times also took his life. Life can be strange and it sent me soul searching in different ways than I had prior."

Ah. Soul searching but in different ways. Different than what I wonder?

In your second post ever, you say, "We are sketching and working with drawings and paintings and have considered other mediums as well. I find that it can have a certain catharsis as I work to make sense of thoughts and feelings about Mormonism."

What is most notable as I read your writing is that you are not here, nor ever, using Mormon vernacular or colloquialisms. Catharsis?

Your third post ever reads, "I am going through a phase of looking for inspiration..."

Alright then. You state your motive. You're searching for something inspirational. I wonder if searching is the right verb or if you have come to tell us something inspirational?

A few more posts in and we get to your "Pimp your covered Wagon" post. If you've forgotten, it's the one about the symbol of a covered wagon being shameful and we should pimp it up like a Volkswagon Bus full of stoned hippies. Which the longer I think about it, the more I think I may need pickle juice tomorrow.

A few posts in and in a response to Lost Mystic you say,"In AA one of the core things they do is 'turn it over to a higher power'. Some of course if not many/most on the board would say that is just 'imaginary' but imagination does a lot of things (think about the placebo effect). Just imagining that it is beyond at least your conscious mind and giving it over to something that is larger than at least your conscious self may be healing/transformative."

Later, to Anagramy, "I have thought recently about the serenity prayer." Again in another post you say, "Tarot readers can be really good and intuitive in my experience and observation."

A day later to poster 'hello': Shiva Shiva Shiva Shambo... :) Love that. I don't know that I would personally define God that way exactly, but I love the Shiva images and much of the general thought processes on Shiva from Hinduism.

FINALLY In this post, you come out and say what I believe you came here to do in the first place; articulate what Buddhism and Hinduism have to offer ex-Mormons. After this post you are more direct and bring up your views, and you do it more frequently http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,499412,499412#msg-499412

Then you go on and expound your feelings for Buddhism and Hinduism saying things like, "I personally really love Hindu temples just the way they look. The artistry can be really interesting to me, not all of them. Sometimes it is just the use of color."

Other tidbits.

"I am sooooo not into Jesus really and pretty much cringe at the name"

Add Raptor in front of it.

"I like the idea of 'black' Gods again partly as a counter balance to my upbringing in Christianity and all the white focus. For me the color black often connects me to a sense of 'soulfulness' and 'depth'. White sometimes seems boring."

I'm with you on this one.

"I don't stand up and bear my testimony of the whole religion of Hinduism or Buddhism. I am a buffet explorer of religions. And like I have commented I like the art that is there. I like the art that comes out of the religions even if I don't understand them. And I like so much more from them even if I suspect that some ideas may not be true or real."

Ah but you already have borne testimony. You didn't say it was "true" you merely testified about what it has done for you. At a minimum you gave it a testimonial. And a few posts later you do it again...

"I think it can be a great tool in helping sort through alternative thoughts on religion in contrast to Mormonism and how so much of its history works against it, and so much of the science and anthropology seems to work against it."

"Also I find for myself it has been healing in regards to Christianity and a lot of the psychology of it, just in realizing how different 'religions' can be and how much more experiential they can be vs. the way Mormonism was experienced."

It's interesting to me that when talking about Mormonism you frequently use the passive voice, "the way Mormonism was experienced." Not the active voice, (ex: "the way I experienced Mormonism") because when you talk about Buddhism you use the active voice, (ex: "I personally really love Hindu temples just the way they look.")

This is about the time a few board members are starting to question your motives. You are in so many words, accused of endorsing a product that is not 'needed' on this forum. Your response is to post explanations of why exMormons need what you have.

For example, "Likewise, sometimes an ExMormon continues to have fears and doubts about whether they left right and they have not resolved something in their heart and mind, so they will struggle with the outer person as they work to come to some sort of self acceptance."

And, "Atheists and 'spiritual' people (people interested in what would be considered 'spiritual ideas) are often drawn together as friends, in families, coworkers, communities, etc... Often the conflict develops greater understanding for others of their own internal process. Sometimes they just part ways because of the conflict."

Then you go all existential and do the, "How can anyone know what is real" thing.

"I have noticed that people on the boards talk about things as 'real' and living 'real life'?

How many atheists read fiction? Is that real life?

How many atheists read scientific 'theories'? Are those real? or just real possibilities?

How many atheists masturbate? Is that real sex?

How about Video games? movies? tv? real life?

--------------------------------------------------------------

I think the most telling remarks are when you get the most flustered.

You say, "This is an ExMormon 'Recovery from Mormonism' board which is why I have posted things which have been helpful for me in recovery from Mormonism. It is not an Atheists Recovery from Mormonism Board at least not from the title."

But without a doubt my favorite is, "How many atheists masturbate? Is that real sex?"

My Conclusions:

After an hour of reading, and let me tell you it was a privilege, I've come to the following tentative conclusions:

1) I don't think you're a troll.
2) I don't think you're insincere.
3) I think you believe that you have something to offer.
4) I think that what you have to offer is difficult to define; it appears to be some form of hybrid eclectic existential mysticism.
5) I think your target is atheists and realists, you seem to dislike them more than you dislike Mormons and want to teach them that there is something "more." You seem to think atheists don't have an allegorical, "raft."

So for the purposes of illumination for all the raft metaphor...

"Imagine a person walking down a road. He comes to a large river. The shore on his side of the river is dangerous, but the shore on the distant side is peaceful. He makes a raft. He crosses the river on the raft and reaches the other shore. After arriving, he has to leave the raft on the shore to continue on his journey. In this case, the raft is a metaphor for the Buddha's doctrine itself. Metaphor literally means "to carry over." And Buddhism, too, is just a "raft" that carries people over to the other shore of happiness. The raft should be dispensed with once one has crossed over to the other shore."

In other words, you seem to think atheists are unhappy and that you have the answer.

I too consider myself agnostic and I'm open to possibilities, even existential ones. I think the reason you've run into a few hostilities on this board is because if RfM shares one thing in common, it is that *none* of us like to be told by *anyone* what to believe, how to be happy, or the way to live.

Carry on.

Excuse me for jumping in -- but since your thoughts
echo my own, I suppose there is no harm in it.

>5) I think your target is atheists and realists,
>you seem to dislike them more than you dislike
>Mormons and want to teach them that there is
>something "more."

ditto

>You seem to think atheists don't have an allegorical,
>"raft."

I'm not so sure about that. It would help if I could
examine Wonderer's positive reactions to atheists,
before I could guess he lumps them all together.

>So for the purposes of illumination for all the
>raft metaphor...

OK -- if that is where he was leading to -- but it
doesn't seem all that germaine to me.

>In other words, you seem to think atheists are unhappy
>and that you have the answer.

Gee -- I hope not! Is that what it seems like?
I've had Mormonism tell me that I must be unhappy,
without the fulness of the Gospel, and that their
teachers have the answer.

This feels like "déjà vu all over again"

Sorry to interrupt.

UD

The Man in Black Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >In other words, you(Wonderer) seem to think atheists are
> unhappy
> >and that you have the answer.
> Uncle Dale wrote:
------------------------------------------------
> Gee -- I hope not! Is that what it seems like?
> I've had Mormonism tell me that I must be unhappy,
>
> without the fulness of the Gospel, and that their
>
> teachers have the answer.
>
> This feels like "déjà vu all over again"
>
> Sorry to interrupt.
> .
> UD


???

UD

To be clear I do not think that everyone should live any one way or think any one way. I have stated repeatedly that my view is a 'take what you want and leave the rest' point of view.

I just like a more well rounded discussion than just Atheism as the only option for ExMormons. I like for people to know what is out there and what they may or may not get from it if they are 'drawn' to explore further.

So you ARE clearly here as a missionary for your eclectic belief system, here to save the atheists.

That's not what we do here.

What makes you think atheists didn't explore or study the alternatives?

I am an atheist and I spent years studying mythology and world religions. I take the philosophy that works for me and reject the rest.

You may not mean to, but you come off as haughty, condescending and lofty when you make these statements.

To The Man in Black - I like your style, very interesting post and I couldn't disagree with anything you said. Thank you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2012 05:20AM by clairefergie.

Fine job of analysis, grandson, I am proud of you.

People always-ALWAYS-tell you who they are and what they want if you listen long enough. If you interrupt, the chameleon may change colors and become what you want them to be and what you want. This is true of love and also of RfM.

Wonderer is not a former Mormon. He/she is working the room on the internet, apparently seeking a place of belonging, for whatever reason. There are no personal experiences described to help illuminate why Wonderer likes Hindu temples in terms of religion/philosophy/psychology. "The colors" is pretty empty for a writer with Wonderer's gifts.

Assuming atheists are not spiritual is a logical fallacy. I am an apatheist myself while being strongly soulful and attracted to the mystical possibilities within myself and how humanity has searched for enlightenment is fascinating. What has been done in the name of religion is horrifying.

MIB's comment about the raft is true for me in that Buddhism is a journey. The raft analogy is used by a number of gurus with this additional point. The traveler stands by the shore in San Francisco looking across the bay at Berkeley. For many months he ponders the beauty of that land visible but unreachable. One day someone pulls up in a boat and offers to take him across the bay. It is a difficult journey and takes longer than expected, but the traveler is patient. Finally, finally, he arrives in Berkeley and looks back over to water to find there is no San Francisco.

Wonderer clearly likes the attention given due to his evocative writing. Finding a common bond with a motley crew like us is difficult and he is finding that out. Religious people quite commonly smooth over denominational and doctrinal differences with the cheap, lazy solution of bonding against the common enemy: atheists.

I can save you some time, Wonderer. What you have here is people who have one thing is common--we are either former Mormons dealing with issues, helpers of people with those issues, friends/family of same, or people just interested in Mormonism for whatever reason.

People are wondering why you are here. So am I and I'll ask you in Mormon jargon, "What is wanted?"

Do you know why that's funny? I'll bet not, but that's ok. You are welcome here --but I would like to know why do you think you are here and not some other board on, say, Religion And Color.

Anagrammy

Why would some lightweight psychology, entry-level Eastern philosophy and a bit of AA get so many panties in a twist?

I'd like to say for two bottles of Chardonnay you write exceedingly well!

On a side note, I love the mention of pickle juice ;-) Works doesn't it!?!?

sitting here wondering the same.

I want to say do me do do me next! but oh no, I do not want attention that badly. Seems like a free way to get analysed though. If MiB figured out the time he spent... and put a dollar value on it... well, I think it would be alot.

lol
Other boards just move on from a Wonderer type. You guys deconstruct them.... I think I find that......well, exciting at this time. No name calling... no visible anger...but deadly strike all the more.

>I remain, listening.

I discovered the secret to happiness. It's called the orgasm. Having a faith system that minimizes those is contrary to the True Plan of Happiness, which is to have orgasms.

Wait, go back. There was a masturbating atheist thread and I missed it?

in american culture(and probably most others) there are certain cultural manners that are expected.

When you walk into a room full of strangers who have a known commonality, you are expected to introduce yourself. Maybe even a short explanation why you're there.
If you know almost nothing about the common ground that they share you don't jump up, stand on your soap box and tell them what you think they should be doing, how to adjust their beliefs, how they have felt, currently feel, and will feel in the future. You don't assign them a belief, and then make rude comments about that belief or lack of. You don't suggest they do things that are disrespectful to their dead ancestors. You don't hog all of the time, space, and air in the room.

If you do, you can expect to be asked to leave.
If you really want to be included in the group, try again, but next time, mind your manners.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2012 10:57AM by Mia.

First, I am a former Mormon. That is why I am here. I feel as frustrated and damaged both by growing up in the religion and by having family and friends in the religion.

Second I do not think Atheists are unhappy. This board has many people who are not atheists, and if you read the threads you can see that plenty of people have specifically expressed interest in Eastern thought and have expressed their own explorations of it.

Third, My interest is not the atheists specifically, but my irritation is that the atheists feel a need to offer it as the only option to Mormonism. I think there are other options for people so I offer them.

Fourth, Atheists seem to think they are/own the boards and reality in general. One only needs to look at threads in recent days like someone asking about inviting their Mormon friends to another church, or seeing a psychic to see that there are others. Also noting the 'anonymous' posting on that thread should indicate the concern that at least someone has in voicing their thoughts and experiences on spiritual/intuitive ideas.

My threads are analyzed as if there were no replies. There was someone far more Hindu than I was speaking in more depth about their experiences with it.

Just because a bunch of atheists are analyzing me and interpret me one way does not mean that is anymore accurate than a Mormon's interpretation of an atheist. It is one perspective. Atheists speak as if their perspective is the only way. I personally see any 'belief' as just that, a 'belief'. I can appreciate how some could believe in 'God' in one form or another. I can appreciate how some could not believe in 'God.'

One can be an Atheist and not be an 'anti-other belief' person. One can drive a blue chevy and not be anti someone driving a red vw bug. My issues tend to come when people who are atheists feel free stating things like 'I can't understand how intelligent people can be so stupid.' (Like Dave the Atheist) or assertions like UD said something to the effect of how agnostics should evolve into atheists. People move all over the place on religious beliefs.

Additionally to analyze me based on 9 days of contributions on the board is incomplete. And even with that, the analysis lacks reference to a lot of other statements on other subjects such as 'One can not be a Christian and love their fellow man' or referencing the work of Joseph Campbell on religion which includes the idea that 'all religions are true, just metaphorically, not literally and most people see them as absolute one way or other'.

I am not interested in converting atheists to any idea. I am not interested in converting anyone else to an idea. I am interested in people having 'choice' or 'free agency' (hey look Mormon vernacular for those who need that in an 'exmormon' board). I am interested in people having other ideas to explore and consider.

Judging from comments other than those who clearly dislike me, others are appreciating, thinking and offering their own ideas and experiences which may not correlate with mine in every way, but which at least acknowledge their own wanderings through the same ideas.

Additionally I am not personally 'converted' by Hinduism or Buddhism. I posted some thoughts on it because another person or two mentioned it and I was offering it to others and I went specifically to a video about the science as a bridge between science and religion.

I address atheists because atheists address me. Like some atheists, I may stop addressing back. I may just need to get burnt out on it.

I believe debate sometimes has a function to help a person refine their thinking even if and when both walk away disagreeing. I am here to refine my understanding and self identity.

To say there is no common ground for me here is to miss multiple conversations I have had with others on other subjects than specifically the more conflict laden threads. Even one of the relative 'haters' pointed out that he had benefited from my thoughts on smoking. Someone else appreciated my thoughts on another thread about their divorce contemplations.

Perhaps people read only my threads and the threads referencing me in the headlines in developing their analysis of me and who I am and what I am about.

Oh and back to the atheist idea further, my point with that was that I think atheists merely are another personality type of sorts and obviously there are different types of atheists which is witnessed in some of the atheists pointing out that they do share common ground or did think some interesting thoughts based on my posts.

I think as a whole there are different kinds of atheists with a range of experiences and a range of concepts of God. The Neo-atheists are often Dawkins and Hitchens parrots with little or no analysis of things on their own. They are often wounded exChristians just looking to clear the slate. As I believe Uncle Dale stated there are Buddhist atheists and someone else referenced a Gnostic Atheist.

Calling someone who talks about spiritual ideas just a hippie and writing them off is no different than writing off the inner world of an atheist.

As far as common ground, sometimes I find common ground and sometimes I find uncommon ground, but sometimes the uncommon ground has its own value. Going where one has not gone, or talking to those one does not agree with has its own function in finding something new out about yourself and others. Y'all should try it sometime. :)

I appreciate the analysis. I dispute it, but I appreciate it.

We are not here to offer or be offered other alternatives, with the exception of those who proactively ASK for suggestions. People who come here with a missionary zeal to "offer options" are not met with welcoming open arms, because it's not what we do here. We don't try to save others (with the exception of those who ASK for suggestions). There are plenty of people here who share their beliefs, but manage to do it without your missionary bent. Maybe it's because YOU have an agenda, and THEY don't.

You are very new here, you are proud of just jumping in with both feet, but in doing that, you managed a great social blunder. Had you chilled out a bit, read for a while before posting, you would have probably had a silent laugh at yourself for your initial intentions, and realized that your motives and intentions, however well meaning, were misplaced and would have been (and have been, in reality) inappropriate behavior here.

People here don't need your saving. They don't need saving at all (unless they ask for suggestions). It is insulting to atheists that you think they have chosen their path ignorantly. You might say that this is not what you think, but your insistance that they need other options is a reflection of your view of atheists. You don't know our stories, you don't know what we've tried, what we've explored. Most of the atheists and agnostics here are very satisfied with their lives and their spiritual beliefs (or lack of). We don't need a missionary to "show us another way"

I'm an atheist and you've made some unfounded and very false generalized assumptions about me.

Also, I have to say that good writers make their message clear and easy to read. You don't do that which is my only disagreement with The Man in Black's conclusions.

Take a clue from Mia. She knows what she's talking about.

I also second what Mia, Cheryl and wittyname said.

Ana

wonderer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
...
> or assertions like UD said something
> to the effect of how agnostics should evolve into
> atheists.
...

Yet another in a series of my vain attempts at humor
gone awry. That's what happens when I jump into threads
initiated with depictions of grumpy atheists, I guess.

To clarify things -- I have no advice to offer agnostics,
other than to follow their own interests and to seek their
own discoveries.

Gnostic atheists are another matter, however. And I do
generally feel compelled to try and understand the facts
that they purport to know.

After all -- I might still learn something.

Anagrammy

To elaborate on the Mormon conversation further, I have spent hours on the Mormon stories podcasts, sifting through Mormon Expressions, and much of the last decade discussing Mormon ideas with family, friends, neighbors, etc...

As far as why I am not in another forum: Why are the atheists not in an Atheist forum? They mention Dawkins and Hitchens as a way to recover from Mormonism. Is that not arrogant to assume that they have something to offer through their atheist ideas?

I like a more rounded conversation than just Mormonism vs. Atheism (and so often simplistic views on each). I am interested in there being other voices in the exMormon community.

Mia...

When I enter computer online boards, my experience is that there are so often many many people on them. Thus it is VERY different than entering a room full of people. My experience and observation of boards is that there are often many conversations going on with many people. Especially on a board this size.

Perhaps the reason I 'jumped right in' was because I have been around the conversations for years and perhaps the reason I jumped into certain topics was because there were some kindred spirits on the board and others who were appreciating the threads.

I see it as a place for subgroups. I did not 'hog all the airspace'. People don't have to listen to me like they would if I were in a group in person. They can merely read another thread or skip past my posts. I do plenty of that.

Just because I posted what I did, one can still see even in the most active times, about 3-5 threads to my one thread. ie. 3 other conversations one can be having. You can focus your attention elsewhere and if you cannot, then you may have an issue with OCD or something to consider.

I am sorry I disrupted your online world experience of however it was for you since it seems you need for it to be very controlled and the same for you personally to feel comfortable. I thought I was stepping into a group of many people with many threads, not a small group of people with one main conversation.

Every board has a specific culture. While the culture can change and shift over the years, board members have to find a way to fit into the existing culture of the board if they want to stick around, enjoy their experience, and be accepted.

What I notice is that you have started 19 threads recently (that are on the first three pages of the board.) That would be a HUGE amount even for a board member who has been around for years and is a known personality here.

IMO that's why people are reacting. They don't know you, and you've seemingly taken over.

Your posts wander all over the place (sometimes I think that "wanderer" might be the more appropriate moniker for you.) It can be hard to figure out what point you are trying to make. So please tell us what point you are trying to make and then support it.

Summer, sometimes I think that there doesn't have to be a point to everything in a particular way. That may also be part of the frustration people have with me.

Sometimes I like to explore options. In that way I don't necessarily have a black and white view on everything. Sometimes I am making sense of what my view is or encouraging someone else to explore an idea.

I guess the nature of being agnostic is that one doesn't necessarily settle on an idea like 'this is the way that life is'. With a religious person or an Atheist, there is a settled, determined, decision, that there is nothing left to consider. I can appreciate the comfort in such a position, it is just not the position I have come to at this point, and perhaps that is a position I will come to.

I agree with you, 'wanderer' may be a fair name in some cases for me and where my mind is currently. Frankly some of the discussions already have me aware of that. I appreciate the comfort that people have after having one absolute reality in waiting for science to prove that to them.

I think in life, one can focus on the 'point' of something, but often in doing so, one misses a lot of other things. What is the point of a landscape? The mountains? the trees? the water? the sky? the sun? the point is all of it and the bunny hopping through.

wonderer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With a religious person or an Atheist, there is a settled, determined, decision, that there is nothing left to consider.

That's an assumption, and it's incorrect. For instance, I was raised in the Catholic church, and there was a great deal of discussion of church doctrines and beliefs. My mother was very interested in Thomas Merton, who himself was a student of Asian religions and who built bridges with Buddhist practitioners. He himself stated that his beliefs evolved quite a bit during the course of his lifetime. Most Christians that I have met (admittedly on the more liberal end of things) like to think and ponder about religion and spirituality. They are far from settled in their beliefs.

The beliefs of the Unitarian Universalists, from what I understand, and built around the role of religious and spiritual inquiry.

I would never presume to tell an atheist what that person does or does not believe. That is for him or her to tell me.

You've gone from telling me how I feel, assuming i'm an atheist, and now your diagnosing me???? I'm pretty sure i'm not the one with control issues here. Your projection is showing

You are a piece of work. Frankly I get the impression you had no idea what you were stepping into.

This is fascinating. I disappeared for a month or so, came back and this guy/girl is making waves. It all seems kind of trivial to me.

My initial impression is that you came in to this place a little heavy on the new age-ism. Not surprisingly you were cut down a few notches. I can tell you that the Christians on this forum are often at odds with the atheists, or people like myself who are agnostic but in disfavor with Christianity. However, some people get upset at a little rivalry. I personally welcome it, and I enjoy a good, rigorous debate.

Another point: steve benson is a prolific thread-starter. Some people really appreciate his posts, others are not so kind to it. He's triggered a debate about science vs out of body experiences that has gone on for some time in the past. It just happens when people like yourself are eager to share your opinion.

Maybe we're all just bored and we need something to focus on. I'm staring at you, wonderer.

I am staring....



...at you....



EDIT.......I AM STILL STARING....bwahahaha



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2012 11:47AM by greekgod.

"and I'm well into my second bottle of Chardonnay."

That'a Boy! :)

"First off, you're a good writer"

I disagree. There are some serious clarity issues and he tends to wander around the point.

I agree, the threads have been interesting though.

snb...

Yes, there are clarity issues. I am working on clarifying some of that. That is part of why I am drawn to the discussions is for that very reason.

That said, I don't know that good writer and clarity issues are mutually exclusive. Not that my identity is caught up in being a good writer, although I work at at least being coherent. I know I am not as clear as I would like to be though both internally and in my communication.

I do indeed have my own demons to work out.

greekgod...

I did come in heavy on the New Ageism for a few reasons. Yes, people like oneself are eager to share stories. I don't think that is a bad thing. I think this board functions differently than some other boards I have been on. It seems to want some sort of cohesion.

Other boards I have been on seem to have people gravitate more by topic heading and ignore others. Of course it depends on the person on the board. Plenty of people just do that.

That said, I don't really apologize for some new age heaviness anymore than Atheists apologize for being atheist.

I start threads on topics I am interested in discussing and figure others can discuss them or not as they may be interested.

Whatever floats your boat. You won't be seeing any apology requests from me.

I think you're fine. I personally love eastern philosophy and things like yoga/meditation.

Hell, if you were a Mormon troll, how fun would that be? I like a little drama on these boards.

greekgod...

I don't mind a bit of drama here and there, but sure don't have the energy for it continually. I also do have every intention of having whatever I offer hopefully benefit at least some folks 'recovery process'.

" I think this board functions differently than some other boards I have been on. It seems to want some sort of cohesion."

Yet another "freshperspective" from experienceheals?

Timothy