“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

I found this on an art website I am a part of. I like it.

That's a quote by Epicurus, who was probably the greatest genius who ever lived. 300 years before Christ, he developed non-deterministic atomic theory, which is still consistent with Quantum Physics. Check him out. He also developed a system of ethics, the ethic of reciprocity, which became a universal value.
He was the central figure of the Axial Age.
There's a great book called The History of Doubt, which talks alot about him.

Epicureanism is a great, non-religious, alternative to religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicureanism

Jefferson described himself as an Epicurean.

>Is God willing to prevent evil...

I'd define a world in which all "evil" was
"prevented" as Hell -- albeit it a hell of a
slightly different flavor than in popular culture.

See the early Twilight Zone episode:
"A Nice Place to Visit"

UD

Human evil I get. Free will, etc. Natural evil--natural disasters, for example--poses a bigger problem. Natural evil does not result from human choice (unless you believe in the doctrine of the Fall). Could God have made a world without natural evil? Was it lack of ability or lack of willingness?

Were I to believe in God, I would have to come to terms with a God that would create the world through *this* process that involves all the suffering and pain and feel that it is worth that cost (to us!). I could feel better supposing such a God loves us and feels every bit as much as we do and that existence is purposeful and valuable. It's a lot of supposing to do.

robertb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Human evil I get. Free will, etc. Natural
> evil--natural disasters, for example--poses a
> bigger problem. Natural evil does not result from
> human choice (unless you believe in the doctrine
> of the Fall). Could God have made a world without
> natural evil? Was it lack of ability or lack of
> willingness?
>
> Were I to believe in God, I would have to come to
> terms with a God that would create the world
> through *this* process that involves all the
> suffering and pain and feel that it is worth that
> cost (to us!). I could feel better supposing such
> a God loves us and feels every bit as much as we
> do and that existence is purposeful and valuable.
> It's a lot of supposing to do.


I sometimes try to picture what the earth would look like,
were I observing it from the orbiting space station. I guess
I'd mostly see clouds and ocean. Now and then I might catch
a glimpse of an erupting volcano or a massive forest fire.
But mostly I'd see ocean - clouds - weather patterns.

From that distance there would be no "evil" -- unless,
perhaps I witnessed some world-wide catastrophe, like an
impact with a comet. But, over time, that too would be
a forgotten event. By some definitions, there would be
no "evil."

What I would count as "evil" would be some invisible force
that prevented the eruptions, fires, storms, floods -- even
prevented the rare asteroid impact. There would be something
very wrong with that scenario -- but I can't define what.

If I could then move from that distant vantage point, down
to the surface, and witness every human "suffering and pain"
(as you put it) alleviated before it could occur -- THAT
would be hell. A scripted, kabuki dance of a world devoid
of natural events and possibilities.

I prefer to see the world as an icon, through which God
"shines" only brightly enough to make it all perceptible,
and no brighter than that. The rest is up to us.

UD

That feeling when you're in an air plane looking down. So peaceful to look at. Really quite beautiful. Who would guess what's really going on?

I have a friend who lives in a town like that. You are above it looking over the town before you actually arrive there. It's so charming. So quaint. Your mind couldn't imagine the horrible things that actually happen there. It looks like a beautiful oasis to raise your family. Not so. There are child molesters, murderers, and more. It makes the soap operas look tame. The mormon community had been there for generations. There are no saints there.

Mia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That feeling when you're in an air plane looking
> down. So peaceful to look at. Really quite
> beautiful. Who would guess what's really going
> on?
>
> I have a friend who lives in a town like that. You
> are above it looking over the town before you
> actually arrive there. It's so charming. So
> quaint. Your mind couldn't imagine the horrible
> things that actually happen there. It looks like a
> beautiful oasis to raise your family. Not so.
> There are child molesters, murderers, and more. It
> makes the soap operas look tame. The mormon
> community had been there for generations. There
> are no saints there.

It's the same thing here -- flying into Hilo from
Honolulu on another island. It all looks like a dream.
And, even after you land and move about the landscape,
it still looks and feels very much like a paradise. The
oxygen from the rainforest gives some folks a natural
high. It seems so idyllic.

The you happen to attend a late night AA meeting, or
wander into a hospital or a court-room. And the illusion
shatters. The greatest evil is what we do to one another;
but even so, I would not want us to surrender that option.

I can't expect the world's masses all to sing a John Lennon
song -- I can only... Imagine.

UD

Have a conversation with cop sometime about what it is like for him (or her) to do his job. One cop I talked to told me he didn't trust anyone anymore because among all those normal appearing people are those who would hurt, steal, lie, and do all kinds of bad things--and you never know who it might be. I have a lot more empathy for him and his colleagues now.

But that invisible force created the world THIS way? How is that any different than if it had created an evil free world? THIS god supposedly created this world so that evil COULD happen???? I don't quite understand that. This means that he must have created evil. So, he could just as easily of created a world without even a concept of evil.

When I see a child with a debilitating painful disease I see no possible way for a caring loving god. THAT kind of purposeful evil is unacceptable.

bingoe4 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>...a world without even a concept of evil.

Think, for a moment what such a world would be.
Could you cut yourself shaving? Could the leaves
fall from the trees? Could your 30-year-old dog
die in peace? Could you ever lose at a game of chess?

Without opposites there is no reality. We could not
see the stars if all the heavens were radiant.

UD

Cutting myself shaving is not evil. Leaves falling from a tree is not evil. Even my beloved dog living a full happy life and then dying is not evil. Just because there would be no evil does not mean that there would be no opposite.

As for scientific development or some other good coming from evil, god could have created some other way for those things to come about.

Open your thoughts up a little and think outside from where you usually are. God could have created a more better world. One that was more simple. Why didn't he? (my answer is if he existed and loved his children he would have.)

bingoe4 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
...
> Open your thoughts up a little and think outside
> from where you usually are. God could have
> created a more better world. One that was more
> simple. Why didn't he? (my answer is if he
> existed and loved his children he would have.)


Let's say you and I, and a few other lucky people get
sent on an expedition to the Centauri star system.
When we get back to earth, after an absence of several
years, we find that a massive solar flare has destroyed
all animal life above the level of fish, reptiles, and
a few small mammals.

We are left to start human occupation of the earth all
over again. If we screw things up in the process, who
would we have to blame but ourselves? What would we
count as "evil?"

Think about it. I'm not determining the outcome; but
could we blame God if one of us unleashed some new
"evil" upon the rest of us? Should God have taken away
that possibility?

UD

I do not feel like following the advice of a guy, who is such a lousy parent, that a third of his children tried to depose him.

Can God create a theological paradox so intractable that even He can't resolve it?

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can God create a theological paradox so
> intractable that even He can't resolve it?

We create God, so the task devolves upon us.
And, yes, I do believe we are a sword that
can cut through any Gordian Knot.

The tangle is not untied -- it is obliterated.

UD

No, God is able to prevent evil, but is not willing.

If I were to decide, that is to believe in God, I would choose just the opposite. God is willing but unable. I'm not sure I could justify that choice, but it would the one I'd make.

robertb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I were to decide, that is to believe in God, I
> would choose just the opposite. God is willing but
> unable. I'm not sure I could justify that choice,
> but it would the one I'd make.


I would choose the middle path, and have God
delegate the task to us sentient beings, ere
the foundations of the world were laid.

UD

Delegate in which way, Uncle Dale?

Also, what if there are no sentient beings except God before the foundation of the world and we are only created through this painful process?

robertb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Delegate in which way, Uncle Dale?

Have the difference between ourselves and God
be as an illusion. So that all capabilities are
shared automatically -- once we realized that truth.

> Also, what if there are no sentient beings except
> God before the foundation of the world and we are
> only created through this painful process?

Have creation be devolution instead of evolution.

UD

The idea that our separation from God is either an illusion or temporary--that we are "sparks" of God scattered in creation, the purpose of which is for God to manifest itself? Or something like that? :-)

robertb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The idea that our separation from God is either an
> illusion or temporary--that we are "sparks" of God
> scattered in creation, the purpose of which is for
> God to manifest itself? Or something like that?
> :-)


Consider this mathematical question:

If God is Infinite, and an equal sub-division of God
is present in all sentient beings, what is the quantity
present in any one individual being?

UD

I'm going to guess still infinite, although math is not my strong suit.

robertb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm going to guess still infinite, although math
> is not my strong suit.

Good guess -- but along with that realization comes
such a big hunk of humility, that you're really not
inclined to go around talking about such things.

Especially on religious and ex-religious message boards.

UD

Uncle Dale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Good guess -- but along with that realization
> comes
> such a big hunk of humility, that you're really
> not
> inclined to go around talking about such things.
>
> Especially on religious and ex-religious message
> boards.
>
> UD

I keep most of my thoughts on the subject to myself :-) Nice to be able to talk about it on this thread, though. I often think I'm a dead man no matter what I think about it. But it makes some difference in how I live.

Thanks for replying everyone, there's some pretty thoughtful stuff here =)

Zorastrians believe God created the universe as a trap for evil.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

If evil is prevented free will is destroyed.
Destroying free will is evil.
If god is the opposite of evil he cannot prevent evil.
By allowing evil to occur its opposite, love, can also occur. Since he is unable to prevent evil, he is willing to forgive evil.

Lets suppose you are omnipotent and omniscient. Would you prevent an evil from occurring if that evil event triggered an increase in love and good will to counter that event? Would you prevent the rise of the Roman Empire if it meant also meant preventing the Renisance? Would you prevent WWII if it meant preventing all the scientific advancement that came out of fighting that war?

Same goes for nature. If we didn't live on a dynamic planet in a dynamic universe we would not exist. Stars were destroyed to create the molecules in our bodies. Natural disasters pushed our ancestors to seek out new lands and invent tools to protect ourselves from harsh weather. Even diseases have shaped our genome to make us who we are. Some virus genes have even embeded themselves in our dna.

I wonder...

How many ppl that 'Blame God' for evil, disasters really believe in (a personal) God, a 'sky daddy'?

Somehow, the two don't go together, at least in my (feeble?) mind.

too busy finding lost keys

Interesting that the very first story in the Bible is about some people "eating from a tree" in order to be able to define what is good and what is evil. And we are still at it.

I have heard people say that some of their greatest growth as human beings has come about through what many would define as "evil".

Incidently, some theologians differentiate between evil and wickedness as wickedness being the conscious effort to harm others or oneself while evil is the effort to encourage others to do wicked things.

Just a thought.

vonclare

Mia wrote:
"I have a friend who lives in a town like that. You
> are above it looking over the town before you
> actually arrive there. It's so charming. So quaint."

"Next stop, Willoughby.......Willoughby, next stop!"


Anyway, have you ever heard of Dinesh D'Souza? He has a recent book that explains, among other things, that earthquakes are not God letting bad things happen to good people, rather they are part of the natural process of Plate Tectonics that help the Earth support life.

I think he's fishing for god but pulling up old tires.