That was really fascinating. Particularly this comment, one of the most hilarious examples of a person completely unfamiliar with simple cause-and-effect:
Feb. 2003. The Utah Lighthouse Ministry has to be one of the laziest and most delusional group of people anywhere. Imagine not being able to "hack the standards" so much that you spend your whole life trying to prove a religion is false, just so you can convince yourself that your actions and conduct, which is apostasy, is justified.
Folks like you can't give [up] a simple cup of coffee, so you try and poke holes and President Hinckley. Folks like you at some point, can't pay their tithing, so they try and disprove the First Vision. Folks like you can't understand the language of the Spirit, so you try and re-invent what revelation really is. Folks like you would rather rely on your own supposed intellect, rather than the promptings of the Spirit. Is that not the easy way out? Folks like you can't follow simple laws pertaining to copyrighted materials, so accuse the Lord's Kingdom of being a multi-billion dollar empire picking on a small 'ministry'. Folks like you can't obey the Lord's commandments, so you call President Packer a bigot.
When it comes right down to it, this is way Joseph Smith inquired of the Lord to answer his humble prayer. He saw the Tanners and the Deckers and the Maxine Hanks of his day. He saw their true apathy towards revealed religion. He saw how they would re-invent religious feeling to manipulate the untaught. . . .
If there were a definition to all of your sick disorder, it would be: Tannertantium...(t n r-t n tr - m) . . . . A not so subtle mannerism and sickness displayed in those who are repeatedly shown to be wrong. They vigorously pursue half truths, especially when discredited. Rather than acknowledging any mistake or wrongdoing, those who suffer from this debilitating disease become even more engaged. In severe cases, some of these die-hard anti-mormons have been known to develop a form of color blindness. They see all that is white as black, and vice-versa. The only known relief has been found in the Book of Mormon. Unfortunately, this remedy is rarely accepted due to another anti-mormon disease known as pridecomethbeforethefallitis.
***
Sweet mother of god. One hardly knows where to begin.
My problem with the Tanners is that they have so much to work with, but haven't had mass results. I don't actually blame them for this. I think that while they mean well, coming from a Christian Ministry, they are too easily dismissed by mainstream Mormons, who can easily question their motives.
...is that they moved from one form of mumbo-jumbo to another. Somehow the critical thinking they applied to debunking Mormonism doesn't apply to their own version of fundamental Christianity.
en passant Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ...is that they moved from one form of mumbo-jumbo > to another. Somehow the critical thinking they > applied to debunking Mormonism doesn't apply to > their own version of fundamental Christianity.
Yeah, I do find it hard to understand how newly-gained critical thinking skills can simply stop working at a certain point. I don't understand how someone would not automatically turn those skills towards the next target, which would be Christianity and then towards religion in general.
For me, it was like a moving train that I couldn't stop, even if I'd wanted to.
When I was TBM I didn't want to listen to the Tanners and they had no leg to stand on...they have many of the same relgious arguments and vernacular as that found in "The God Makers" - useless evangelical drivel with an agenda.
The only way for me to properly exit the church was through critical thinking, philosophy, and viewing the observable world. Everything else is trading in one phoney belief system for another.
When I discovered Mormonism wasn't true, atheism was instant. There was no "journey" to atheism, only a realisation that the only God, and the only religion I have ever known was not true. I had spent 30 years disbelieving all the other religions, so there was nothing left.
I guess it would be a little different for converts.
freeman Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > When I discovered Mormonism wasn't true, atheism > was instant. There was no "journey" to atheism, > only a realisation that the only God, and the only > religion I have ever known was not true. I had > spent 30 years disbelieving all the other > religions, so there was nothing left. > > I guess it would be a little different for > converts.
That's one of the sad results that most of us go through. It played out in my mind as a simple syllogism:
1. Mormonism is the only true church 2. Mormonism is false 3. Therefore there is no true church
Once I embraced more fully the lies of the church, I realized the first proposition was false. Mormonism is not necessarily the only true church. That opened up a world of other philosophies and beliefs to examine.
I've spent the last 9 months looking for any evidences of a God or Gods, and can safely conclude that my initial position is correct. There are many philosophies, religions, and ways of living that have some merit to them, but they are not "true".
I especially like the one about "Folks like you can't give [up] a simple cup of coffee, so you try and poke holes and President Hinckley."
He's able to simultaneously pat himself on the back for not drinking coffee, and slap someone else upside the head for being weak.
Coffee's GOOD, don't get me wrong. But I've never heard of someone leaving the church and giving up their salvation just to drink it. Does HE really think it's THAT good?
> I went to the Mormon Church for the last time yesterday, and being the first Sunday of the month I was able to get up and > share my testimony of the Saviour and explain why I would not be going to that church again. I kept it short as I wasn't sure > the bishop would let me say too much, but I used 2Cor 6:17 as my text and then left the chapel. The only surprise was that > around 15-20 people said amen. I'm not sure whether they meant it, or were just not listening.
Applause, applause. Way to go. YOU may also like 2Cor 11:3,4. So were those "Amens" audible to the masses? Very cool if they were. And congrats on getting out.
My first response after I learned the truth was to want to rescue all of my friends. I was the kitten who jumped out of the box and realized that our world WAS a box and we didn't even know it. So naturally I wanted to rescue them all and let them know that there was a whole world out here to explore.
But I sadly soon learned that the other kittens didn't appreciate my discovery at all. They just thought of me as being lost. I'm sure they'd like to rescue me.
It all depends on which side you're on. If you're an ex-Mormon, who knows the real truth, then for some people, they feel compelled to spread the truth and rescue as many people as they can.
When I was still a Mormon, I looked at people like Ed Decker (who was the only 'anti' Mormon I knew of at the time) and thought, "How sad. How sad to base a ministry on something negative, rather than something positive, like just celebrating Jesus in the way that he understands him to be. He has a 'Ministry' based on tearing down another faith. How sad."
But once you get on the side that we're on now, you realize that it's about rescue. They're willing to put up with the labels and the derision, if they can save just one soul.
It's amazing how your view of something is completely dependent on where you are in your own views at the time. My view of the world is now very different from what it was 10 years ago.
To them, we're lazy. To us, we're the brave ones. It's not easy to leave, like they think it is. In getting to know the outstanding quality of people within the ex-Mo community, I've learned that we are indeed the brave ones. But you'd never convince a TBM of that.
Mormons are some of the most cowardly group I've ever known. Particularly the leadership, but the common ranks too. What's special, admirable or courageous about sticking to a small group that agrees with everything you believe? Amidst the copy and paste pat BS this TBM does mention courage. Laziness is a common insult but they don't usually talk about cowardice. I consider the onus of bravery is overwhelmingly on departing Mormons. To face the challenges inherent to that requires it, bravery isn't required to be a Mormon in good standing. it's not brave to publicly say no to coffee.
After maligning the tanners among others for their attacks on the church, the TBM goes on to say that Smith dealt with his own antis, who were apathetic. So which is it, attacks or apathy? I swear they'll say any nonsense that pops up in their warped brain without regard to academic persuasion or even maintaining a consistent point. Buffoons.
How disingenuous to infer that Smith's detractors were apathetic.
He was engaging in conjugal relationships with underage daughters, wives whose husbands were off in faraway lands on mormon missions, dubious financial shenanigans, acts of subversion, destruction of the press, and on and on.
His enemies were DEFINITELY NOT apathetic.
Megalomaniacs frighten and anger society because they hurt and harm willfully, completely oblivious to the sensibilities and sentiments of others.
graduated from a po-dunk town in East Tex in '78 and three months later was on a plane to NYC to go to Columbia.
Did not know a soul. And this was before airline deregulation. Plane tickets cost the same back then that they do now. The price is constant. And there was no return ticket if you were going for a whole semester.
I crawled out of that kitten box in '78 and have lived in Manhattan ever since.
I know my wife and daughters are eternally grateful for my one brave act.
allwhowander Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I like the kitten in the box analogy. It really > nails it. > > I also tried to 'save' them and help them out of > the box. All the while they were trying to 'save' > me who was lost.
I've always thought of it that way. I felt just like a group of little kittens in a box. I jumped out, looked back and said, "Holy cow! I was living in a box and didn't even know it."
I wanted to call to the other little kittens, to let them know, but they just got angry with me and denied that they were living in a box.
And now, there's no way that I could ever again be confined by a box. That's why I can't get involved with any other religions now. For me it would be like jumping from one box into another box.
No more boxes for me!
Oh, and now that I've left the box, I finally began growing into an adult cat, while those left in the box have remained as kittens.
"My first response after I learned the truth was to want to rescue all of my friends. I was the kitten who jumped out of the box and realized that our world WAS a box and we didn't even know it. So naturally I wanted to rescue them all and let them know that there was a whole world out here to explore.
But I sadly soon learned that the other kittens didn't appreciate my discovery at all. They just thought of me as being lost. I'm sure they'd like to rescue me."
Greyfort - ME TOO!!! I found myself turning into one of those obnoxious ex-smokers who drives everyone crazy trying to get everyone else to quit too. I started "outing" myself more and more to friends & family, and on FB, largely in the hope that some would follow me in my journey, but that hasn't happened at all. I think they pity my poor misguided soul and hope I see the light soon. I'll never, ever get back into that box again!!
Yes, it is about rescueing and saving. What else could he do? He needed to share both his current beliefs and to disown the old. I see nothing wrong with it from my nevermo point of view. His goal is to save people from further brainwashing.
When I was neck-deep in the confusion of leaving the church about 30 years ago someone gave me Sandra Tanner's phone number and suggested I call her. I had never heard of her before, but was just told she was an ex-Mormon who may have some insight for me.
I called her one morning and proceeded to do a brain dump of all the confusion, pain, and betrayal I was feeling. She listened, encouraged me, and promised me I was not alone. She told me my feelings were perfectly normal, and things would get better. It was a moment of relief that was a turning point for me in my journey out of the church.
I later learned that some of the money sent to their ministry went to support children through Christian Children's fund and as individuals, the Tanners were active in their Salt Lake community as volunteers helping the homeless.
Jerald is gone now, and Sandra may not be a top-notch apologist for Christianity, but she doesn't pretend to be. In my life she exemplified what I imagined the Christian life should be: A concern for others and a struggle for the truth.
It was the Tanner's that kept me in the church for as long as I was. I wasn't about to trade in the 'porsche' for the hillbilly wagon of any form of Evangelical BS.
Then as soon as I found out there were others who really didn't have an agenda or "world of pretend" of their own, and were just out to reach a 'truth' or at least show what was a 'lie', I was like, SWEET!
Intellectual honesty is my vice. I can't get enough of it.
LordBritish Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > It was the Tanner's that kept me in the church for > as long as I was. I wasn't about to trade in the > 'porsche' for the hillbilly wagon of any form of > Evangelical BS. > > Then as soon as I found out there were others who > really didn't have an agenda or "world of pretend" > of their own, and were just out to reach a 'truth' > or at least show what was a 'lie', I was like, > SWEET! > > Intellectual honesty is my vice. I can't get > enough of it.
Sorry, but you sound just like a Mormon. The Tanners were proof that Mormonism is true? It was the Tanners that kept you in the church?
Tell me, were you able to locate any factual errors in their presentation of Mormon problems? It's faulty logic ingrained in Mormons to discard information simply because you disagree with the messenger.
Sorry, but you stayed in Mormonism because you -- like the rest of us -- bought the lie. You're deluded or dishonest if you think the Tanners had anything to do with it.
Whatever information eventually led to your exit from the church was very likely first uncovered and exposed by the research done by the Tanners.
Feel free to disagree with their beliefs, but do you honestly feel that your current global paradigm answers all of life's ultimate questions with absolute certainty? None of them do. Humility is a much more reasonable approach. Given enough time and scrutiny, we'll all be revealed to hold onto far more "hillbilly" beliefs than we'd care to admit.
I would love to be able to poke holes in Gordon B.S. Hinckley's image, but there simply isn't any way to begin to keep up with Gordon's own self administered shot gun blasts. I mean where is anybody going to poke a hole in screen door that has already had a semi truck driven through it!
I don't think he was saying that--I think the perception of the Tanners as ex-mos (and proselytizing ex-mos, at that) is that of a misguided, uninformed evangelical with an axe to grind. It wasn't until I left and actually looked (because looking at unapproved materials as a TBM is verboten and very, very scary) at what the Tanners had that I realized how much they were saying that was absolute truth--with documents to back it up.
The TBM assumption is that any and all "anti"-Mormons don't know what they're doing and that they are deluded. The Tanners turned out not to be as deluded as I thought.
I'll second that. 'How' one says things matters. When I was talking to the missionaries I avoided calling the church a cult precisely because I knew they'd stop listening and become defensive and dismissive if I did... even though them being in a cult is the truth. :oP
Two former bishops and a former branch president were among those who left. All together thirty people left, most of them long active in responsible church positions such as branch and district presidencies, district and stake high councils.
One of my favorite quotes by an exmo is from Lyndon Lamborn who was excommunicated in 2007 because of questions he asked and answers he shared.
“There comes a time in the life of many church members when the desire to know the truth about the church becomes stronger than the desire to believe the church is true.”
I think the Tanners are fantastic. I ignored them completely until I started really studying the history of the Church. Their website is full of excellent information, as are their books. I have nothing but good to say about them, no matter what their current Christian beliefs are.