What are your new limits?

I've read thousands of reponses to thousands of questions here on the recovery board.

Some responses are very revealing of a good mind of a person who's moved on from Mormonism into a new good-centered life, serving others in a new way. Basically people who felt trapped who moved into new good things.

Then other reponses seem to come from clear scumbags who don't seem to know the difference between good and evil and are now living a selfish self serving life. (forgive me for sounding judgemental, I just can't think of how to word this differently)

I would like to ask a few questions of all those who frequent the board:

1) Now that you're free from all that good-will in the Mormon cause, do you still do good things for people who need your help?

2) Now that (some) of you think that sex outside of marriage is not a sin, does that pretty much mean you can do whatever you want now? do you set limits?

3) Do you keep anything private? Are there things in your own life you'd rather keep between yourself and your spouse or family, or do you pretty much share everything with everyone?

1) Yes, I still try to do good--but instead of overcommitting myself as I did when I was TBM, I focus on where I can do the most good with what time and skills I have.

2) I still have limits on sexual morality. I am married--not happily--but will not be unfaithful. If I were single again, I would not frown upon having a sexual relationship with a boyfriend--but it would be within the context of a committed relationship. I have never been one for casual sex and doubt I ever will be. As for my teenagers--I keep encouraging them to wait until they're out of high school and are in a seroius relationship before they start having sex--and we've talked about birth control. We'll see how that goes.

3) Private things stay private unless I feel a need to vent on this board :-)

>
> 1) Now that you're free from all that good-will in
> the Mormon cause, do you still do good things for
> people who need your help?
>

Of course I do. I serve all mankind now, not just those who wear the same underwear. I have more time to actually really volunteer and get to choose things that interest me. (AIDS WALK, food back pack programs, etc)

> 2) Now that (some) of you think that sex outside
> of marriage is not a sin, does that pretty much
> mean you can do whatever you want now? do you set
> limits?

Of course their are limits! I love my spouse and love being in a committed relationship with him.


>
> 3) Do you keep anything private? Are there things
> in your own life you'd rather keep between
> yourself and your spouse or family, or do you
> pretty much share everything with everyone?

Are you serious? Not even going to answer that one.

I was a horribly rebellious teenager so I live a much cleaner life now as an atheist than I ever did when I was a mo. I went through these swings, huge nasty downturns followed by sobbing and repenting and doing everything I could to make it back into the good graces of the lord. Now....

1. I work with sexually abused children and have been doing so for 13 years. 3 1/2 years ago my wife and I adopted a sibling group of three kids who also happened to be physically abused and starved for their first few years. I volunteer at the local humane society and have rescued several animals including 5 dogs, one cat, two goats and a bunny. I'm also a left wing environmental nut activist.

2. I could do whatever I wanted when I was a mo. I could do so now but I choose not to do certain things. Happily married for 11 years. Hoping to continue for the next 40-50.

3. I won't tell you my underwear type or color. I won't tell you all kinds of aspects of my personal thoughts and feelings. Even if you ask nicely.

Ideas such as good and evil are irrelevant. Of course there are monsters on this planet who could be considered evil, but within terms of limits after Mormonism, those terms are extreme. Behavior that is ethical or unethical might be a better guide for you to use.

As far as sexuality goes, however, within the context of people who are willing, there is no good or even or even ethical or unethical behavior. There is no inherent moral, immoral, good, or evil component to sexuality.

1) I did good things when I was a Mormon and I continue to do good things. I volunteer and help people as much as I can. I think that people are inherently good and will usually try to help others. I am a person, so this applies to me and every Mormon and non-Mormon out there.

2) Within a relationship, there is no good or evil that applies to how people set their own limits. My own limitations are set by what I like and what I don't like. I prefer monogamy, but have no ethical qualms with having sex with whomever I wish. It is neither good nor evil that I choose to or not choose to have sex with a willing partner.

3) I try to keep my online identity and my real life identity separate. I also try to keep my professional and personal life separate. Other than that, I am an open book.

All our atheist friends are faithful.

I don't know why anyone would assume it's religion that keeps people doing the right thing.

I'm in an interesting position right now, because my relationship with the LDS church has evolved into a "marriage of convenience". I'm only staying right now for my degree (BYU).

Also, my situation is less complicated than it is for others, because I'm a convert...with no family or marital ties to cloud my decision-making. I've been in the church for 4 years.

I have two years left before I can make my separation. But between now and then, I have a lot of time to think about how the dynamic of my life will change once I'm out.

I know I will lose "friends". But truly, are they friends if they can't accept the person I'll become? They forget that Christ spent time with the lowest level of scum...and loved them.

To answer your questions:

1) Yes. I am pursuing a profession that will help me do that all the time. I expect to have more free time once I leave the church to do more things for people of more diverse groups.

2) I have never thought sex outside of marriage was a sin. Before I converted, I was a wild one. One good thing the Church did do for me was it put me in a position to evaluate why I was promiscuous (I was sexually abused). While a member of the Church, I also got professional help to deal with my abuse. I am not necessarily waiting to leave the Church to have sex again. But I want a committed,loving relationship to go with it. Most TBM guys I meet are a-holes. I am interested in experimenting with women. I have a paranoid fear of "being caught" though...a feeling I never had before joining the church. Even here, I have thrown enough shadows that no BYU Cyberdrones can easily detect me. I think the paranoia is part of the shell-shock of being in this environment.

3) How I look forward to having a private life again! And not having to keep secrets from my nevermo family...like "I went to the Manhattan temple today to baptize Nana and all the women on mom's side". They'd sh*t if they knew what went on in there.

May I suggest you google the story of Chad Hardy and his experience of finishing all his BYU coursework, "graduating", but then having his degree stripped. IMO I'd suggest reading http://saas.byu.edu/registrar/records/transcripts.php and making sure a certified copy of your official transcript is delivered to some institution where the record of such a delivery can be held forever in case someone tries to pull a "Chad Hardy" on you at BYU.

Thanks for the tip. By the way, absolutely nothing I say about myself on here is true...my age, background, my course of study, where I'm from, my current calling, town I live in, how much time I have left...all are fabricated. I do not put any info on here that they could use to figure out who I am.

YOU READING THIS, BYU TECHIES???? I'M A MAN!!!! A GAY ONE!!!! I LOVE GUMDROPS, TIES THAT BRING OUT MY EYE COLOR, AND RICKY MARTIN'S ARSE!

Nor do I ever use school computers or BYU's wireless connection. I've never even brought my personal computer on campus. Too paranoid.

Before I applied, I was coming on this site, and realized it would be a good idea to set up a separate FB account. I have a searchable one with my real name that's open to all my "friends" at BYU, as well as my friends and family outside of the school/church. On that one, I post wholesome pictures of myself in Mormon-friendly attire. And I have nice wholesome status updates like "I love watching the sunset", "Bunnies are cute", "Gumdrops are yummy", or an occasional quote from Thomas S. Monson.

Then I have my real one, unsearchable, with a phony name. On this one, I post personal stuff...pictures, rantings, "hey, Ricky baby, wanna go to Salt Lake tonight? We can go check out that goth night club, Sanctuary. " You need a Jezebel2mishies Recommend to be worthy of entering that private page. You cannot simultaneously hold an LDS Temple and a Jezebel Recommend. Unless, you're the JezMaster herself.

Living on the edge.

OH, WOW...CHAD HARDY???? I DIDN'T KNOW THEY WITHHELD HIS DEGREE AWAY FOR THAT! (I have that calendar, btw. A friend actually got it for me when I got baptized.) I know he got exed, but didn't know about the degree. Damn.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2012 03:01PM by jezebel2mishies.

zexsi Wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>(forgive me for sounding
> judgemental, I just can't think of how to word
> this differently)

No, forgive ME for pointing out that your entire post sounds all "judgy." The basic premise of all three of your questions is flawed. Especially question #1.
>
> 1) Now that you're free from all that good-will in
> the Mormon cause . . .

Excuse me??? What "good-will" in the Mormon cause?! (I'm just shaking my head here).

You are, quite obviously, still very, very Mormon. If you've truly read "thousands" of RfM questions and replies, then you ought to know the answer to your own insulting questions. Keep reading.

Yeesh, I get tired of drive-by posters who assume that Ex-Mormons are a bunch of amoral, axe-murdering, child-molesters. I refuse to answer your silly questions.

;o)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2012 03:55PM by shannon.

There are good ExMormons and bad ExMormons, just as there as good Mormons and bad Mormons. Bad Mormons (talking personality and behaviour here, not obedience to Mormon commandments) make bad ExMormons and vice versa.

1) Do you still do good things for people who need your help?

I'm no Mother Theresa. I try to be decent human being, but I'm not the first person people come to in a crisis. I never was when I was a TBM either, however. I haven't actually changed.

2) Now that (some) of you think that sex outside of marriage is not a sin, does that pretty much mean you can do whatever you want now? do you set limits?

I am married, and I respect the unwritten code of marriage, if not the specifics of the Mormon temple ceremony. Of course I set limits. I have generally the same view on marriage as most married Westerners. You don't need a religion to tell you not to sleep with other women or visit strip clubs behind your wife's back. That said, if I was single, then pretty much anything goes.

3) Do you keep anything private? Are there things in your own life you'd rather keep between yourself and your spouse or family, or do you pretty much share everything with everyone?

I have always been private, and from my point of view nothing has changed. I do wish everybody else respected my right to privacy a little more, but this was true before too.

Helping the less fortunate is almost all I do. Since I'm quite financially poor, but blessed with ample sexiness, I donate sexiness constantly. I don't turn away anyone who would ask for a handout or a handjob. Donations can run me dry though. My only limits are, no monkey sex on Sundays. Everyone needs a day off. I do keep private those donations which require me to eat a dozen oysters.

+ 1.

We should be friends.

Alright, I'll bite.. or perhaps feed in this case. Allow me translate the OP into a language more familiar to our outcast ways. Call it reformed-apologyptian, if you will. Let me find my urine & thumbin. Alrighty, everything's in place. Here we go:

zexsi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What are your new limits?

Translation: Now that you're completely amoral, do you stop before or after scooping the brains out of the skull of the human sacrifice you're making to Hades to decide if you want to defecate in their open cranial cavity?

> I've read thousands of reponses to thousands of
> questions here on the recovery board.

Translation: I have waaaaaaaaaay too much time on my hands. [My reading here borders on addiction and I doubt I've read thousands of responses to thousands of questions.]

> Some responses are very revealing of a good mind
> of a person who's moved on from Mormonism into a
> new good-centered life, serving others in a new
> way. Basically people who felt trapped who moved
> into new good things.

Ahh! Here's where it starts to get juicy. This paragraph reveals the OP's predisposed biases, most likely in favor of born-again christianity. Translation: "..into a new, jeebus-centered life, serving others in a new way, namely bugging the hell out of their non-jeebusy co-workers to listen to really crappy contemporary-christian music or watch videos of Kirk Cameron and a banana."

> Then other reponses seem to come from clear
> scumbags who don't seem to know the difference
> between good and evil and are now living a selfish
> self serving life. (forgive me for sounding
> judgemental, I just can't think of how to word
> this differently)

Translation: Now that you've jumped off the ship to planet kolob, if you fail to go jeebusy then you're a selfish, self-serving person (because you aren't all jeebusy and because you most likely began to learn how to set boundaries to keep people from trying to guilt you into being all jeebusy. How could you do something like that?). Forgive me for sounding like all condescending and arrogant, I just don't know how else to write.

> I would like to ask a few questions of all those
> who frequent the board:

Translation: I would now like to stir up the pot, maybe poke a stick into a hornet's nest for a little while..

> 1) Now that you're free from all that good-will in
> the Mormon cause, do you still do good things for
> people who need your help?

Translation: Now that you've escaped the mormon cult, are you jeebusy, or an amoral, brain-eating atheist [see above]?

> 2) Now that (some) of you think that sex outside
> of marriage is not a sin, does that pretty much
> mean you can do whatever you want now? do you set
> limits?

Translation: Now that I have the opportunity to provide a mass judgement of an entire group - nay, tribe of cult escapees - and I assume, as all good beliefs are assumed, that you're filthy, whoring prostitutes slathering yourself with melted crisco and dancing nearly naked in the streets, does that mean you can have the fun that I so excruciatingly deny myself? Do you set any limits or do you just go having sex with farm animals while campaigning to end christmas in favor of a national abortion day because you have no moral compass [see above]?

> 3) Do you keep anything private? Are there things
> in your own life you'd rather keep between
> yourself and your spouse or family, or do you
> pretty much share everything with everyone?

Translation: For jeebus's sakes, please stop telling us so much about your personal lives! It's making me uncomfortable. Do you torture everyone around you with your mundane life details, or just here on RfM?

Well, brethren & cistern, that draws my special, magical translation powers to a close. Before leaving, allow me to try and conjure up the words to a saying that I found on the web, EVEN the internet. "Christians don't do something bad because a big scary god in the sky ordered them not to or they'd burn in a fiery hell for eternity because he loves them. Atheists don't do something bad because it would just be a dick thing to do."

I say these things in the name of Raptor Jesus Christ RAmen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2012 07:00PM by apatheist.

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
pretty much infinity

Best post ever RJ

thanks for saying what I was thinking. Well I wasn't thinking that EXACTLY but pretty close...

Rock on my brother

And we live to serve our Lord; as opposed to serving a man-made organization.

I have no limits. I am unlimited. I am who I AM.

I kind of resent the implication that leaving Mormonism means leaving morality, unless one proves oneself to have Christian values. I am not Christian.

In my experience:

1. Service is what I do. Outside of the church, you give and do for others, not because you are ASKED to, but because you WANT to. And you have TIME to serve! And you have MONEY to give! Because you haven't had every last drop of your resources (everything the Lord has blessed you with or might bless you with) micro-managed by some entity outside of yourself. You own yourself, your time, talent and resources...not LDS INC. And it isn't just mormons you serve (with strings attached) or the faceless in the great LDS public relations campaign. It's all of humanity. You find yourself feeling one with all, not divided or superior...but truly brothers and sisters of one great whole.

2. My morals haven't changed. I believe that sex is holy. Sex is power. Not the power that destroys, but the power that gives birth to great potential. Religion tries to take this away. Manage and control it, bring guilt to it. I am monogamous. That said, what I do in my bedroom or kitchen table (by myself or with my husband) is mine, not the bishop's. And what others do that brings them that beautiful power is theirs. No guilt between 2 or 3 or 6 consenting adults. Sex is the greatest worship service of all.

3. Private things? Lol. Now what is mine IS private! No bishop, stake president, relief society lady or home teacher to delve and dig. No one asks me the color of my underwear (okay, that isn't always true ;)). Seriously, within the Mormon church there is no privacy! There are no healthy boundries. Outside the church you learn to keep what is yours yours.

Our lives are focused on our daughter who is developmentally disabled so we devote resources to her care and to the support of others like her, and to our grandchildren. Our life is pretty full....

I haven't really changed. Except I have a glass of wine in the evening.
That's probably why some mormons had a problem with me.
I never let them decided when, where, who, how, I was going to serve, or give money to.
I never discussed my private personal live with the bish.

The only thing that's really changed is how some family members treat me, what I do on Sunday, and my husband is home more.

The questions posed are the perfect example of what a lot of exmos say - that Mormons (and other cult members, perhaps) utterly lack understanding of how people are able to set their own personal boundaries in a healthy way. This post demonstrates that point even better than when one of you tries to explain it. (And y'all do a pretty god job, IMO!)

or living a worthwhile life in ANY way?

Mormonism is FICTION, dude. While it may have a lot of restrictive rules, it does NOT equal morality. It's just controlling.

The majority of people that I have met that have left the church are amazingly honest, moral and strong people, and do just find (or much better) without it.

I'm trying to figure out why you are concerned with what OTHER people are doing after leaving the church. Are you looking for social proof that the church is or isn't true? No matter how good or how bad you think someone is after they leave, it doesn't change the fact that the church is not true. Basically it only shows what the fallout is from involvement with a controlling organization.

The fact of the matter is that people become INDIVIDUALS after they leave the church. They find their own path, and there is no way to pigeonhole them and how they turn out.


BTW, if you met me, you'd probably think I could be the RS president. And I COULD be, if I believed any of it.

> 1) Now that you're free from all that good-will in
> the Mormon cause, do you still do good things for
> people who need your help?

Yes.


> 2) Now that (some) of you think that sex outside
> of marriage is not a sin, does that pretty much
> mean you can do whatever you want now? do you set
> limits?

As long as it's safe, is between consenting adults, doesn't harm people I care about and is non-exploitative, then no problems.
>
> 3) Do you keep anything private? Are there things
> in your own life you'd rather keep between
> yourself and your spouse or family, or do you
> pretty much share everything with everyone?

Sure, I keep some things private.

I'm a lurker, been reading for a while, first post.

1.I didn't really do the good works thing when I was a member, so I probably do more now. Do I do good things for people? Sure, if I know them. Do I randomly give people money on the street? Nope. I *do* give money to Planned Parenthood, the ACLU, and Human Rights Campaign though. My wife gave money to Green Peace for a while, but we both got irritated with their method of doing business.

2. Do I set limits on sex? Yes, absolutely. My limits are 1)legal, 2)consensual, and 3)honest/open/transparent. That's not strictly true, but close. See, I've been so sexually repressed as a result of being raised mormon that while I'm sex-positive for everyone else, I have a hard time being that way for myself. Also, I'm married. While I don't believe in monogamy per se, I *do* believe that non-monogamy within a committed relationship is something that you need to discuss with your partner (i.e., it's not a moral issue, but an ethical issue). And, honestly, my wife and I are currently negotiating non-monogamy after years of fighting about wildly unequal libidos and interests. Legal should be a straight-forward issue (no minors, no necrophilia, etc.). Consensual can be trickier; I believe in affirmative consent, such as getting a 'yes' rather than waiting until I get a 'no'. Even then, people can consent to sexual activity due to an unusual state of mind (drunk, under-the-influence, mental illness) that they might not otherwise consent to, and I believe that I should try to be perceptive of that and not proceed if there isn't full, informed consent.

2a. I am a born-again, evangelical atheist now; I no longer accept the concept of 'sin'. Morals have very little meaning for me at this point, other than the principal of universalization; for me to be allowed to make a choice, I must accept that other people must be permitted to make the same choice. It's a more nuanced, complicated version of the golden rule. If that makes sense. I do believe that setting ethical boundaries allows society as a whole to function; when I say that I will do something, I usually do it barring unreasonable or unforeseen circumstances. (I would argue that breaking all the promises I made as a mormon is due to both unreasonable and unforeseen circumstances, id est, the fact that there is no god, and therefore all promises made to that non-existent god and to family regarding that non-existent god are void.)

3. I am personally open about *most* things, with *most* people. No, I don't talk about certain things with my co-workers or boss (sex, religion and politics should generally be avoided in the workplace). I keep my FB page locked down fairly well to ensure that I can complain about work without losing my job, and I set up lists so that certain posts (like, say, talking about going to Exxxotica) doesn't highly offend one of my two or three conservative friends. There are some things that I don't talk about because they don't involve just me. My wife doesn't like it when I'm open with other people regarding our personal life, but I don't have a problem for myself with those boundaries.
That said, I have 32 piercings, including 14 genital piercings, both nipples, and a meatotomy, have no kids due to a vasectomy that I got the second I had my own health insurance [just like 7-Up; never had 'em, never will], I usually wear either black boxer briefs of purple bikinis, and I enjoy every second of my stigmatophilia.

I agree that my moral boundaries have been changed, but you've got the direction wrong. Here are my new, EXMO boundaries:

I reject the immoral notion that taking time away from my family in order to attend inane and time-wasting meetings is a good thing.

I reject the immoral notion that spying on neighbors, friends or relatives who believe differently from me is for their benefit.

I reject the immoral notion that we are entitled to be an eternal family while others, who believe differently from us, will be separated from each other in the world to come and relegated to lesser kingdoms.

I reject the immoral notion that my feelings are somehow more profound, more accurate, more real than others who feel differently than me.

I reject the immoral notion that women need to be obedient to their husbands or that men are the only ones who can have leadership positions or hold special powers from god.

I reject the immoral notion that my daughters' ultimate calling in life is necessarily motherhood.

I reject the immoral notion that drinking coffee or having an alcoholic drink is immoral.

I reject the immoral notion that gay people should not be allowed to be married.

I reject the immoral notion that non-lds people should not be allowed to attend their own lds child's wedding.

I reject the immoral (and utterly arrogant) notion that anyone speaks for god.

I could go on and on but you get the point. My moral boundaries are much tighter than they used to be. I love living a more moral life.

Why do you sound so disapproving, like you are addressing a teeming pack of horrible people?

I agree with Raptor Jesus! Just what I was thinking.
My comment to the OP would be: STOP thinking like a mormon. It's incredibly hard to open one's mind after being conditioned to think along "the straight and narrow" and I still struggle with it at times. But, I did/am doing it and so can you.
Here's what I've found in my post mormon experience:
Satan is not out to get us and there is no such thing as sin. Human beings, all on their own with no help from a magical sky friend, are naturally inclined to compassion for others. Religion is not the sole provider of moral thought and behavior.(IMO, it does much more harm than good) Anything that doesn't directly involve me is none of my business; conversely, anything that DOES involve me is no one else's business. I've no right to judge others and no one has any power to judge me.
Once free from the MoMo mindset, it's wonderfully freeing to know that "The natural man is an enemy to God", "wickedness never was happiness", "I'd be nothing without the church" are the most insidious of a long line of lies. It IS better out of the church.
Now these realizations came to me only after having my world turned upside down, my questioning everything I thought I knew and going into a deep, dark depression. I had to face myself without my MoMo blinders on, and it was hard. Really hard.
Now that I'm on the other side, I am happier and more comfortable in my own skin and much more open minded and non judgemental than I ever was as a MoMo.