I am serious when I ask this, do you think that the blatant and out right lies told by the mormon leadership point to something more nefarious, dangerous, or sinister? To me the this type of lying verges on psychopathic behavior; not just everyday psychotic behavior, but like murderous world domination psychopathic behavior. I'm kinda getting scared.

This may sound strange, but there could be a few other scenarios.

1. They aren't sinister, but attempting to maintain their own status and the church standing in general. When people get desperate, they do really stupid things.

2. They know the truth themselves and are trying to cushion the eminent fall in whatever way they can.

3. One part of their brains see the facts and the other parts are doing mental gymnastics. Remember, TSCC has already been able to explain away the transition from JS to BY, polygamy and priesthood for blacks without the whole structure collapsing.

I really don't see them twiddling their fingers in excitement about the new lies...

I picture more of a desperation and panic...

Not that it makes it ok.

Oh boy, thank you so much for that perspective; that calms me down a lot, I just don't trust anyone anymore since resigning. You are more than likely correct in your assessment. Its just I thought they believed faith and the Lord was strong enough to overcome this crap that when things get tough, then supposedly miracles happen. Perhaps this is our sign that they don't believe in their supreme abilities afterall. Perhaps they are well aware that they cannot summon the powers of heaven so that they can always tell the truth. This is only a hypothesis, but I was taught that if I was honest, things would work themselves out. If they can't even do that, then perhaps they aren't insane, but just boldfaced liars, trying their dardest to put things back together. Either way, this is disgusting.

the mental gymnastics is very real. I see close up how someone must believe and therefore twists the facts and the perpetrator's own words to fit the belief.

I don't percieve it as sinister. Its more like dishonesty in order to preserve their own selfish interests. Like the kid who lies to his parents to avoid being punished.

The psych wards will be overwhelmed with TBM's who can't cope when it all falls apart...

This youtube video explains what is going on better than anything that I can come up with.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBXxJJfX3Nk

Sociopaths. Holland and Oakes especially, except for the sexual promiscuity I'm guessing.

I could not agree more. I think the people at the top definitely are. Although I don't think they are CLINICALLY sociopaths (maybe one or two are), but groupthink can certainly foster sociopathic behavior.

I think when I had any sort of leadership role in the LDS Church (granted, I was never in any SERIOUS ones but Ward Mission Leader, or EQ Presidency, for example), whether I wanted to believe it or not, I was guilty of the same. I had ZERO testimony of it, but I did as I was told because of the reward and the respect I got. All the while doing exactly what I was preaching to people (who for some reason were sometimes counting on my insight or example to help their own problems) NOT to do. It was pretty sick and something I wasn't prepared to continue doing in my life.

I guess some 20-somethings never grow up. They love the lie. They love the power and the prestige. They convince themselves they believe it. They really convince themselves that "seeing Christ" is a symbolic gesture and, well, that time that they thought they heard the prompting to deliver a speech about inappropriate reading material because a Cosmo magazine fell off the shelf into their shopping cart... I actually think I might have some idea how they rationalize it all.

Yep. It's human evolution all over. The need to belong and be accepted by the tribe rather than be cast to the wolves who circled the camp in the dark makes people fall into group think and defend the pack no matter how indefensible.

It's group psychopathy. The tribe must prevail no matter how many individuals are destroyed or lies told. The ends justify the means, which is also classic behaviour with individual psychopaths.

Oakes has pretty much admitted that the church must be protected no matter how wrong leaders are. He's definitely got issues.

They were raised to believe. AT one time they did. They were born into and appointed into the system. The real truth unfolds. They can't deal with the fall out. They don't want it to happen on their watch.

They have family members that are in the system. Family that couldn't get a job in the real world. What does a seminary or religion teacher do in the real world?

They are hoping they can keep it together enough to prevent a meltdown. I sincerely question their ability to do that.

I used to see members fall away because they didn't want to deal with it anymore. Now I see them falling away because they have information and facts that prove the church isn't what it claims. That means anyone could fall away at anytime. Bishops, Stake presidents, Relief society presidents, the children of these people. Everyone is on the internet. They can't do a thing to stop it. They can't keep punishing adults for finding out the truth, and get away with it.

If they keep trying to destroy people who find the truth, they are going to have a falling away they can't even imagine.

They want no transparency concerning their financial dealings. What are they hiding and why? I find that somewhat sinister.

This is an important point. People have reasons for the decisions they make. Why has the church decided to forego financial accountability, which almost everyone believes is an intrinsically positive thing?

The church likes to dismiss the issue of its institutional financial non-accountability by comparing it to personal privacy. But there's really no similarity.

Personal privacy is all about the individual's right to manage his or her own life. On the other hand, when institutions refuse to be accountable -- even to their own members -- for money which is entrusted to them, it doesn't affect individual lives unless something is going on that would be generally perceived as improper.

That's why institutions that refuse to be financially accountable are perfect breeding grounds for corruption.

which begin with confabulating & then to believing their own lies.Whether or not any specific individual is a full blown narcissist or not is up for discussion, but this is a trait.

I have been running through this in my head recently as my adult son questions my reasons for estrangement from his grandparents.There are several stages to reaching the point of being so firmly entrenched in the delusion that you would lie for it.
Please note this has no professional imprimatur, it is just my opinion.

First -a person who has a sense of entitlement sees that affiliation with the structure of an organization produces status & power.

Second- to advance in the hierarchy and shore up or increase their need for the kudos they magnify their abilities or their contribution to the organization.

Third-they demean or neutralize rivals to further entrench their position.

Fourth-they begin to revise the story of their involvement to place themselves more squarely into what they perceive as the centre of influence.They invent or magnify altruistic reasons for seeking a position of influence.

Fifth- they foster a circle of weaker people who boost their ego, strengthen their position & reinforce their sense of entitlement.

Sixth- they belittle/demonize & eventually defy & shun any who dissent.

Seventh- they become cemented in a role that sees them believing
their manufactured fantasy of superior abilities & sees them unable to give up the benefits(tangible or intangible,real or promised) that accrue from their "elevation".

This hold true for any organization, be it local government,"big politics" a local sport or community club.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Fascinating deconstruction of the process. For me the pivotal key is 'they invent or magnify altruistic reasons for seeking a position of influence'. That is the point of no return.

It explains why extremely intelligent people can stay in the game.

The other explanation for me is, they have just invested themselves so deep that they are now throwing good money after bad. It just turns to spiritual quick sand and the real you is gone.

I like that, you seem like you know your stuff.

I'll tell you the truth. They are all Mole people. Everyone one of the GAs. Well, not Thomas S. Monson, he is just a cranky old guy, with whom they are pulling an elaborate prank.

and with the Mormon church's tontine of a presidency just happened to live long enough to reach the payout.

Welcome to my nightmare! I have been terrified about these scary people and their behavior for a long time.
When my mother passed away, two guys (penis holders) came over to her house to do a "right before death blessing." I had such an overwhelming feeling of the presence of EVIL in them that I ordered them out of her house. They left probably thinking I was hysterical, but the EVIL literally floating in the air around them was palpable. TSCC is sinister and evil. The main thing that it does and has as a goal is to spread evil and to do it is such as way as to hide the fact that that is what it is doing. If Mittler becomes president, I am moving out of the US. I am too scared to stay. I am serious!
I do think that this goal (to spread evil) has been the goal since April 6, 1830.
Mia said - I used to see members fall away because they didn't want to deal with it anymore. Now I see them falling away because they have information and facts that prove the church isn't what it claims. That means anyone could fall away at anytime. Bishops, Stake presidents, Relief society presidents, the children of these people. Everyone is on the internet. They can't do a thing to stop it. They can't keep punishing adults for finding out the truth, and get away with it.

If they keep trying to destroy people who find the truth, they are going to have a falling away they can't even imagine.

AND YET - we have a Morg pres. candidate. With all of the things mentioned my Mia and others, everyone on the internet etc., everyone finding out the truth, and yet, we still have a possible Morg president in the works. Now, that tells me that something sinister/evil is going on. TSCC SHOULD HAVE ALREADY COLLAPSED! Think about it. It should have already broken down completely and yet it seems stronger in some ways...Mittler!!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2012 02:43AM by enoughenoch19.

Romney may be President, but the feces thrown at him by Obama about the LDS Church this FALL 2012 will make it seem like a an obsessive Harry Potter, Comic Convention, Star Trek Cult. No more US converts.

It is EVIL and Orwellian at the same time.

Well I think that the feces should have started before the nomination process so we would not have this stress. On the other hand, maybe the stress will get TSCC closer to toppling?
Why don't they start with the feces NOW?
It takes time to convince people of what a complete piece of shit TSCC is.......
I think the TSCC is one of the most destructive forces in existence! It should be called the STEPFORD TSCC.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2012 03:02AM by enoughenoch19.

The feces has already been thrown aparently, check this comments out at politico, its pretty horrible:

http://dyn.politico.com/members/forums/thread.cfm?catid=1&subcatid=70&threadid=6713775&start=691&CurrentPage=15

Not sure who the person is that is posting anti mormon post after anti mormon post, but he has a TON of anti mormon stuff on the post, its actually kinda funny at times how much stuff he posts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2012 04:19AM by bbstephanbb.

I agree that the Morg and it's leaders can seem sinister at times:

- They brag about the good they do but they won't publish their financials
- They threaten and slander those who leave the church
- They break up families to keep church members
- They feel justified in going after your children
- They seem to have no shame in what they ask you to give them
- The temple is very, very creepy
- The Strengthening the Members committee is just not normal
- The way they bully and intimidate missionaries into serving and into working once they've committed to serve.
- The fact they rule by fear
- They take nice people and convince them that bad behavior is morally justified or even good behavior. They motivate people by stroking their egos instead of inspiring character.

All that being said, is it a fundamentally sinister agenda at it's heart or is it just a man-made organization that lost it's heart years ago and feels justified hunting members and money in whatever way it works? Because there is a difference between people who set out to be sinister and people who set out to be good and learn to justify themselves because of their so-called good intentions.

Those Mormons are 1.4% of the US population.

Should Mitt win, he'll lead 300 million. I don't think he sees the old men as anything special. I don't think he believes any more than they do. I don't see why he'd do anything to advance any sinister cause.

They have to do whatever he needs them to in order to make him look good - otherwise they'll be shown as fools.

He has no need to do anything for them. He has to keep up the 'good Mormon' facade for his own purposes.

Mitt is in the power position of his relationship with the church. The old men are held captive by the whole thing. They need him to behave well or they are in danger.

Religion is about money and politics, and that is all that is happening here.

Good point, about the power dynamics going on.

But if Mitt wants something more concrete many years from now after he's retired (such as an Apostleship), he'll try to play nice with the Q15.

There is the possibility/likelihood that both Mitt and the church are being controlled by higher earthly powers, to which they all sold out long ago.

They seem sinister because they were chosen not for their spiritual qualities but for their administrative skills. Even the hypocritical Bible Thumpers in the mega churches are there to inspire their flock and a lot of the most spiritual albeit dysfunctional little churches are always losing money and members and struggling day to day, including the Christian church in the first century AD. But if a "revelation" were to come down tomorrow that the Church has been called to make iPods these are the guys who would have every member working 16 hour days with no bathroom breaks.

Oh no I hope I didn't just give them an idea.

The cult is sinister because it lies about everything. Any organization so lousy with deception breeds misery whether intentionally or not.

You only have to see the depression and suicide figures to know this cult spreads "evil". It's history is always hate and exclusion no matter which group is asserting their demand for equality. They take and take while giving nothing but edifices to the cult itself. EVERYTHING they preach they ignore themselves in practice.

If I believed in Satan I could see no better example of a religion created by the father of all lies. At least the Taliban are openly hostile to much of the world. Mormonism is a two-faced mind fark.

ozpoof Wrote:

> If I believed in Satan I could see no better
> example of a religion created by the father of all
> lies.

My sentiments exactly. I don't really believe in Satan either but if you look at what Christian churches and even the Mormon church sees as Satan's plan - what the bible says is typical of the anti-Christ in the last days etc., Mormonism really fits the bill. I wish I could think of better examples but it's very late here and I'm getting a bit air-headed. :)

I would say manipulating marriage and family relationships to extort money from people and to control them through peer pressure, community pressure and guilt and shame is pretty sinister.

The whole thing runs on building the leadership up and putting you below them. Then you create a peer pressure matrix within the family and community that brings acceptance by doing what the church leaders say and bringing shame to those who don't tow the line.

Mormonism is all about trying to gain acceptance from a status quo that is never satisfied. There is always more you should be doing. I've actually seen this mindset burn people out and make some lose their sanity. What you want gets completely smothered by trying to please and impossible to please authority church system.

You are a sales executive that works for a company which sells a product that isn't that great. Though you see it's flaws, you concentrate on the good parts. Your job is to present the product in a way that others would want to invest in that product. The church is a business. Most of them probably have very little time to actually read scriptures or pray much.

I will forever believe that they are hiding something.

Can you just imagine the skeletons in that closet they are trying to keep hid???

At the very least, it points to something ...

...

...

...

...

Fraudulent.

They know they are frauds, they will lie, and they want your money and they want to control you.

Is that sinister?

Yes.

The end.

The only one I think may suspect it is a fraud is Holland, or at least just a few steps away from consciously realizing it. Most of the others are more victims than perpetrators. That's not to say they aren't SOB's, but it's pretty clear that most of them think they're doing the right thing. Or at least tying to live out the rest of their days without ruffling more feathers than necessary.

They know if they let out the financial information, or opened up all of the archived history vaults, members would be running off the cliffs like lemmings.

I think they tell themselves they are lying to protect members, when in fact it is to protect themselves.

They have a membership full of adults who can't make a life decision without church intervention. The leaders set it up that way. How can you tell all these adult/children they've been scammed? They can't. So they hide info and give people jobs in the church to entrench their loyalty and make them feel like they're someone important. They make them feel guilty and sinful for questioning anything that the 15 don't want to divulge. Members know how defectors are treated, and viewed. They don't want that to be them. They know they can lose everything they have if they don't go along with it all. How can this be called anything but evil?

Who really knows?? But I understand your reasoning...the only thing I can point to is the church leadership, especially Joseph Smith's actions, seems to confirm what Jesus foretold in Matthew 24:24...

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

A whole lot of well-meaning people crossing several generations have been verily deceived. It's one of history's great tragedies IMO.