Help me gear up. My husband tried to casually mention, as he walked out the door to work, that he is going to pay his tithing from our vacation/savings account. A little back history, we have always had 10% of our paychecks direct deposited into an account that nether one of us uses and at the end of the year we write on big tithing check. Last year, when I was still going along with this shit, I told hubby I want 10% for a vacation fund, he said he wants to match that with savings, and a new account was created for this purpouse. Low and behold 6 months into this year he tells me he stopped paying into the tithing account, and wants to pay from vacation fund. I said we will talk about it tonight, as he was just about to walk out the door.

These are the arguments I have so far.

1. That fund was started as a vacation/savings fund. What 10% do you want to take? My vacation? Or our family's savings?

2. If you want to spend 10% of our income on a church that I don't agree with, then I want to do the same. I chose the westboro babtist church. (this is the church that protests military funerals)

That's it folks I need help. The hubster is very laid back non confrontational kind of guy, so in your face mean arguments just don't work with him.

He stated that tithing was part of our marriage covenants, I retorted that he was the one that chose to break marriage covenants first.

DH and I fought about money (although not tithing, because we both decided not to do it at about the same time) and had several near break-ups over it.

We took the course from Financial Peace University, where we learned about the right order for spending, saving, and giving. (No, you DON'T give off the top, like TSCC teaches). We learned that one spouse can't go off and change what the couple has agreed to do with the money.

Idk if this course would help you, but it sure changed our lives for the better and taught us how to not come to death-blows over the money.

IMHO, the agreement you two made takes priority; he can't agree to one thing and then change the contract by himself. In business, that would be dishonest and illegal. If he wants to set up a different agreement for next year, that can be open for discussion, but no changing the rules on this year.

I’d mention that a Church that can afford to spend 5 billion dollars on a Mall does NOT need or require your support.

Secondly, why does God need us to give him money in the first place….It’s pretty telling that God needs us to give him money to get anything done in this world…..What happened to being “All Powerful?”

God says “Give me 10% and I’ll bless you”,,,,,,,isn’t it kind of like extortion…. So we have to buy “gifts”, “love” and "favor" from God, eh? What kind of loving relationship is that?

Ask him why every other charitable organization in the US has to give a detail accounting of where the money goes and what its used for but the Church doesn’t and says….”Trust us to do the right thing”.

Yeah, right!... like spending 5 billion on a Mall in SLC instead of helping the less fortunate was the “right” thing.

Lastly, everything is open to renegotiation. You no longer believe and do not intend to use any of you earnings to support the church. He's welcome to pay on his earnings after you've paid yourselves first via savings. He has to understand that the Church will not help you if you are ever in need.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2012 10:21AM by davesnothere.

I am trying to. Invince my wife to go. We don't about money well

Isn't this going back on his word? Didn't you guys have a contract of sorts to spend the money a certain way? If he wants to continue from this point and stop paying into that account so that he can pay tithing off his paycheck then I think you have very little, to no argument to that. However the current account stays where it is because that is what you already decided as a couple.

I only went to one temple marriage so maybe I am forgetting the tithing covenant during that ceremony. That is ridiculous if it is true. You promised each other to pay tithing?

I refuse to let my husband pay tithing on anything I earn, and I earn about 1/3 more than he does. After the church's support of prop 8 I refused to let him use any of my earnings for anything to do with the church, it's just bad kharma.
I have to say though I wouldn't give your 10% to westboro, that's just more bad kharma, I'd give it to HRC- Human Rights Campaign or even a local food bank.

Sorry, he decided to not contribute to the tithing fund. That was his choice. He can contribute to his tithing fund.

The vacation fund is not to be touched, per the agreement that the two of you made about your mutual money. If he insists, then pull out all of your deposit statements, show how much you've contributed, and pull ANY money out of the vacation fund - to be put in a private account that only YOU have deposit/withdrawl access to. Same for anything for family funds, and you can figure out a new way to pay bills.

He doesn't want to play by the mutual rules, then keep your money completely separate and protect your paychecks from the church.

"A little back history, we have always had 10% of our paychecks direct deposited into an account that nether one of us uses and at the end of the year we write on big tithing check"

This money put into these accounts (vacation/savings) went in pre tax or after taxes?? I am not aware of a vacation savings account you can contribute to before taxes like a 401k. Also do you pay tithing on net or gross earnings? If it's gross earnings, explain that your tithing is up to date for the church and you (your husband really) is in good standing..

Me thinks that someone at your husband's church is making him feel GUILTY for having these -extra- accounts. Does the bishop know about all of your finances???

You need to stand your ground..

I don't know about detailed arguments. I think it might be better to just state that you no longer support the church and refuse to pay money to it.

You can't stop him from paying on his part of the income, but you can refuse to pay from yours.

It's part of your marriage covenants? Just state again that you don't support this church in any way any more.

He seems to be missing the main point. It isn't up for negotiation. You don't believe the church is what it claims.

This is painful for him, and it can take a while to process the loss of his dreams. How long you give him is the tricky part.

Dear Husband, of course you can take your tithing donation out of your part of the holiday (English version of a vacation) fund. But, if that means you can't afford to come with us, rest assured that we will go without you.

Ok so some clarification.

1. I'm a sahm, only the husband works, so technically it's all his money, but he has never stated anything like that.

2. The accounts are just bank accounts, so the money is taxed the deposited.

3. The only debt we have is mortgages, we own rentals. So there are not a ton of bills to pay.

I'm not sure why he stopped depositing money into the tithing account. He didn't tell me he had stopped until months later, it was weird.

Thanks for your ideas, I've made a couple more points to bring up with him when we talk tonight.

I was married and TBM for ~30 years. We had continuous contention over how we would manage resources, mainly time and money. Eventually I decided that Church induced contention wasn't productive. It wasn't conducive to a testimony, or life in general for that matter.

We could only expect to pay tithing if we watched every expense: no restaurant meals, no recreation, no vacations, only second hand clothes, etc. Every expense was a potential confrontation. Finally, I decided no more contention, but we would only pay tithing "if they was money left." Now I've left.

My daughter was in town this week. I suggested various restaurants where we might eat dinner. "This is not my father," she said.

"He stated that tithing was part of our marriage covenants" -- this part is troubling to me. It sounds like a veiled threat. I would eliminate this idea first so that he can't hold it over your head.

Doesn’t matter that you’re a SAHM….the work and service you provide managing the home and taking care of the kids has “value” so you should have a 50% say in how income brought into the home is managed.

Take care of yourselves FIRST…….The Church is nothing more than a multi-billion dollar corporation masquerading as a religion.

If you decide to be charitable and help others do so on your own terms not on the terms dictated by a soulless corporation.

Except that you also have free agency and you can disagree based on the fact that he has basically been dishonest with you. Therefore if he attempts to take money from funds reserved for other purposes against your wishes he is exercising unrighteous dominion. The missing funds need to come from him, get a second job whatever or just forget about it.

Like idleswell says.
Agree to pay 10% tithing after expenses, so 10% of the vacation fund is paid to the church tax (humm, maybe use that republican like change in terminology).

From his tithing account, send 10% to some feminine cause that may be a bit contentious, like planned parenthood.

Make the vacation account is a double signature account.

Your marriage vows (assuming you were married in the temple) did not include paying tithing specifically, however, the promises in the endowments do include pledging "everything you have, even your very lives" to building up the kingom of God. Since many people have their endowments done at the same time or on the same day as their temple marriage, I can see where he could be confused about what part was the religious covenant ceremony and what part was the promise to each other.

You're both in a huge period of change in your relationship and you have to trust that your husband will stick to the new agreements as you change from the old situation (2 TBM spouses) into the new situation, whatever that becomes.

You both made an agreement at the beginning of the year about how to handle a big part of your income (10% from each to vaca, 10% from each to savings, 10% from his to tithing) He made a unilateral decision to change that agreement. Of course, he may tell you that your disbelief in TSCC was also a unilateral change in the marriage agreements. (be prepared)

Perhaps this is a good time to fully separate your finances, if you haven't already, with one person in charge of the joint debt/expenses (mortgage, utilities, etc.) and the other person writing a check each month to cover their 1/2. All single debt (including tithing if he wants to pay it) should be paid directly by the person who owes the debt out of their personal finances. Savings would need to be independent in this scenario since he obviously cannot be trusted to stick to the joint savings agreement.

I don't envy you in your conversation - money is always so much more than the numbers in the bank account. It can symbolize control, power, security, love, etc.

GeekChick

I'm with davesnothere. You are a SAHM which enables your husband to work without paying for your childrens daycare ... you are the daycare and much more so don't EVER believe that it's his money alone! You earn 50%!

TSCC has enough Romney's to cover their luxuries and they Hardly put any of it toward real help. If he wants to dump his money down their greedy throats he can ... but not your half! Good luck tonight!

Lady, you are in the world's most classic NO-WIN situation.
I sympathize with you.
STICK TO YOUR GUNS.
If you are living in a community property state I believe that you have the legal right to 1/2 of the total income.
Demand that he takes the extortion money (aka tithing) out of his half after the joint expenses have been met.

The fact that hubby unilaterally changed your agreement says volumnes about his lack of integrity, the lack of respect he has for you and the lack of any fear of being held accountalble by you for his actions.

Most of the above suggestions are great if he had integrity and respected you, he doesn't.

Two points:

1) He stated that tithing was part of your marriage covenants. You probably made those covenants based on the assumption that what TSCC was telling you was true, it's not.
As a result, you're under no obligation to honor a covenant where TSCC used lies and deceit in order to entrap you.

2) The most powerful negotiation tatic, perhaps the only one in your case, is the "Nuclear Option" so to speak. Your willingness to "walk away" from the marriage (taking 50% of everything, alimony, the kids, child support, etc., etc.) may be the only thing that will get him to treat you like the wife and partner you deserve to be treated like.
WARNING: Don't use this option unless you're fully committed to exercising it if necessary. If you threaten it, he blows you off and you don't use it, life will be even worse for you. He'll have even less respect for you, have no future fear for the consequences of any of his actions (you may even end up penniless and alone in your old age if he's so disposed) and your life will probably be considerably more miserable.

Naturally, the above ideas are based on the limited information you've given. Good Luck!

You didn't know he stopped putting tithing aside. You aren't fully engaged in day to day finances?

That is a serious problem on so many levels.

I found what worked for DH, who hates finance, is to set aside a time once or twice a month where we do it all together. We examine all the statements, bills, everything. It goes in a pile and both of us check it all - for 'errors', then write checks.

If it's all online, you need a full set of passwords and you must access it regularly. Your kids are one heart beat away from relying on you to be involved with the money.

Ultimatims seldom accomplish any good.

on money matters there's always a Safe Middle Ground.

If he expects you to compromise, you also expect hubby to compromise

(except, of course, 'Compromise' is EVIL in Morland.

when it comes to tithing and active TBMs with inactive/nonmember spouses. The husband and wife should determine what part of the family income is fair to tithe on (50% ?) and the Bishop will usually agree with the compromise.

I hope your right, that some compromise can be worked out. I believe she should take two or three of the ideas from this thread, the ones she feels most comfortable with, and try those first.

However, based on what information she's given I have my doubts. Admittedly, the Nuclear Option is the last option, but it should never be taken off the table. History has proven that in war, and in this case marriage, the Nuclear Option is a powerful deterrent to those with bad intentions.

Your husband appears to have a passive-aggressive personality, that's why he is doing what he is doing.

Plus, you can almost bank on it - someone in the morg is leaning on him to pay up for his eternal soul.

See if you can take over the book keeping, sahm or not.

There should be a college fund for your kids and a savings account - your kids are more important than a stupid cult. Expenses get larger as kids get older.

This is a tough topic to bring up. It may be impossible to convince him that the corporation spends so little on charity. If he knew that ~90% or more is spend on malls, temples, real-estate and other laundering businesses it might convince him. The problem is, of course, that he won't believe it no matter how credible the source.

For me, I simply told DW that she can spend her money in any way she pleases. I also, however, told her that I would be upset if she paid tithing on my earnings because I'd rather put the money into a college fund for our kids. It worked out for me because I make a great deal more money than she does. Tithing was a sore spot at first but she accepts it now, and I think she secretly is glad to have more discretionary income -- though she'd never admit it. I think telling her that money is the number one cause of marital problems, which is something LDS people will accept, helped her realize that it wasn't a battle she wanted to fight. I also went to the Bishop and told him curtly that she's temple worthy, and the reason no tithing is being paid is because I refuse to pay it. He gave her a recommend.

I guess what I'm saying is use sources he will believe and try to make some sort of compromise that he will accept. Later, once he's accepted it, perhaps you can convince him to do more (eh less). Good luck.

That was great of you to confront the bishop on her behalf. Good work!

I didn't read all the posts, so not sure if this has been said, but he can be a full tithe payer by paying 10% on (his) half of the family income. My aunt married a catholic and had a recommend her whole life by tithing on half of her family's income.

Regardless of whether tithing is right or wrong, regardless of whether the church is bull$#!+ or not, both of you agreed that money was for a specific purpose. If he pays tithing out of that money, he is breaking an agreement.

My TBM husband and I will have a major tithing fight soon...I refuse to pay tithing on any money I earn. [because I believe the cult is an immoral and dangerous organization and will not support it] I am going to inherit some money soon...he is going to be unhappily surprised when I don't pay tithing on it. I hope we don't get divorced over this...paying tithing is more important to him than feeding his family. He also worries about not being allowed into the handshake house costume party because his evil devil of a wife won't fork it over to the cult.

A. Inheritance is NOT income. Its more like a gift. Therefore not tithe-able.

B. An inheritance is not considered joint property in a marriage. Its yours and yours alone. Your SO doesn't have a say in how its spent.

Tell your SO that the inheritance is a windows of heaven thing for all those years that you did pay tithing. God is giving it back to you as a token of his appreciation.

Stick to your guns. NO tithing on inheritance!

He can still claim to be a full tithe payer separate from you.

You can also claim to be a full tithe payer. Isn't the question "DO you pay a full tithe"?

IMO the answer would be yes. The church has no claim on inheritance money. For them to say they do shows their true agenda.

I wonder if you would all give my wife the same advice. She is a SAHM and I told her to stop paying tithing. She did, and resents me for it. After reading this I understand why. She handles all the money BTW, I just follow along.

I would like to follow up regarding one poster's comment about your husband's dishonesty...

My question to him would be, "Honey, if you stopped contributing 10% of your income to the tithing fund, where did the money go?"

It's possible he up and decided one day to spend what funds were in there. Just a thought to keep in mind. Do you and your husband share financial statements and pay the bills together?

Seems to me before you approach your husband about the matter you might want to do some research of your own to find out what your husband has been spending the money on. Best wishes! I hope it all works out for you :)


baabaablacksheep

I would like to follow up regarding one poster's comment about your husband's dishonesty...

My question to him would be, "Honey, if you stopped contributing 10% of your income to the tithing fund, where did the money go?"

This.
This is the killer question.

I think there has to be a compromise. In the past, other couples have decided that the TBM spouse can pay tithing on half of the family income, and I think that's a way that respects BOTH points of view. Yeah, he's WRONG about the church, but in a relationship, a person's feelings count. He deserves a say. As do you. I would NOT approach this as a fight.

This assumes you have the money to cover the bills, of course. If you don't, then he should come up with a way to supplement it, since he wants to spend it. And he doesn't get to raid the vacation fund. If he didn't save what he was supposed to, he can "repent" from this point forward and start paying tithing. If he has toys or sports equipment, maybe he can sell them to pay it.

That said, this is a tough enough transition, with you leaving the church. If you want the marriage to survive, I think you need to show extra patience and love. And give a little on a few issues like this. Maybe with time he'll see the light. And leave the church as well.