I'm confused. I've been on this board only a short time and I've heard a number of opinions as to what, an honest tithe means. I'm not looking for opinions, I'm looking for an official church statement that says something to the effect that an honest tithe is.......

Not a general auhority, who in general conference, etc,, gives his opinion on what an honest tithe is because we know how unreliable that can be. GA's views have been deleted from the Ensign or even changed by the next general conference.

Does it mean 10% of a person's gross income?

Does it mean 10% of a person's surplus after expenses?

Is it left to each member to decide what an honest tithe means?

Is the bishop only supposed to ask, "Have you paid an honest tithe? and leave it at that?

Are bishops, according to church policy, allowed to require a member to prove with their pay receipts, etc. whether they've actually paid an honest tithe? or is this some authority they take upon themselves if it suits them?

Or is this another of TSCC's doctrines, policies, teachings they leave purposely vague?

When I was TBM and married to my ex, we tried to get that exact question answered. He was a college student and his parents would give him work assignments and pay for the work by paying his tuition. They did NOT pay his tuition plus 10% to the church (they were non-members). We wanted to know if that was to be counted as an "honest tithe" or not as we didn't have the extra 10% to tithe on the work that clearly was specific to him getting money for school.

The bishop had no answer for us and basically left it up to our interpretation. It was a frustrating conversation, since he didn't SAY he couldn't answer it. He just provided stories, parables, "follow the spirit", "pray to the Lord" non-answers.

Very frustrating. Not only did we spend time worrying about it, but we actually paid tithing at a time when we could barely keep our rent paid and buy food.

The official rule is 10% of your "increase". Does that mean income? gross or net? money left after the bills are paid? No one will give you a straight answer to those details.


Geekchick

It actually says, "interest annualy" it's so frequently misquoted as increase I'd bet half all members quote it wrong in talks.

I have always been taught that an honest tithe is 10% before taxes, including any income from any source, including interest on accounts, including retirement accounts.

I checked the Church handbook website and they do not have an official definition on the website.

I doubt you'll find one, since it would be very controversial to officially state that all it's members donate 10% of their pre-tax income to the richest church on the planet, while also requiring them to work as free janitors.

All I can offer is the countless conference talks where the GA's make it very clear that this is what is expected.

BTW, there is an annual meeting with the bishop at the end of every year called "Tithing Settlement" that is held one on one with each member where a bishop will ask, with a copy of their tithing receipt showing the total amount paid for the year, if the member is a full tithing payer. Sometimes they will accept the value, sometimes they won't. But, your bishop can figure out how much you earn every year based on this information and has it for all members in his ward.

I once gave a "Gospel Essentials" class on this topic. No one had an honest answer for this question. All i got was "do you want to get gross blessings or net blessings". I know this isn't very helpful but an honest tithe is 10% of your increase according to the Doctrine and Covenants. I think it's up to each individual on what they believe that increase is.

I knew I could count on that making it in here! I would always fake a laugh, but inside, I always wanted to punch the SOB who said it in the face. One of my least favorite Mormon lines ever.

They've done some experiments in restaurants with leaving prices off the menu and allowing patrons to pay what they think the meal was worth. Although there were a few cheapskates, in general they paid more than the prices would have been. Seems the same to me: just another example of the psychological warfare TSCC wages against its members.

Some quotes from church leaders:

President Spencer W. Kimball;
“Inquiries are received at the office of the First Presidency from time to time from officers and members of the Church asking for information as to what is considered a proper tithe.
“We have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually’ which is understood to mean income (see D&C 119:4)” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1980, 113; or Ensign, Nov. 1980, 77).

President Gordon B. Hinckley;
"Tithing is a principle that is fundamental to the personal happiness and well-being of the Church members worldwide, both rich and poor. Tithing is a principle of sacrifice and a key to the opening of the windows of heaven. In Primary I memorized the tithing poem: “What is tithing? I will tell you every time. Ten cents from a dollar, and a penny from a dime."
"For many years, presidents of the Church have interpreted “interest”(D&C 119:4) as “income.” Beyond that, they have not elaborated. That fourth verse consists of thirty-five words. Contrast that with the cumbersome and complex tax codes enacted and enforced by governments."(Ensign, Dec. 1989, 5)

A 1970 letter from the First Presidency of the LDS Church stated that, notwithstanding the fact that members should pay one-tenth of their income, "every member of the Church is entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord and to make payment accordingly" (Mar. 19, 1970; Doxey, Roy W. Tithing: The Lord's Law. Salt Lake City, 1976).

I've discovered what an "honest tithe" means to me. To be honest with myself, I must pay nothing. I don't want to support a fraudulent organization that already has $35,000,000,000 in assets.

What gets me is, if TSCC has their way: Dad makes $2000 on a paycheck, pays $200 in tithing. Gives Son $300 for his tuition, who pays $30 in tithing. Son pays Gardner $40 for mowing his lawn, Gardner pays $4 in tithing on that.

So for that original $2000, $234 was actually tithed. What a money-making racket. Isn't this like a Ponzi?

Let's say dad paid out of $2000 he got on his income tax refund. He's already tithed on the original $2000, and now he is tithing on it again. $400 tithing on $2000 income.

So, people who have their withholding set wrong, or do it on purpose because they know they can't save during the year, and want to get a big refund check, ending up paying more in tithing.

Deenie the Dreaded Single Adult wrote several times about how her bishop claimed she wasn't paying enough tithing, which if I remember right was just baby sitting money, or some minimum wage job while she was in school. After interviewing (interrogating) her and finding out that she was eating at her parents every Sunday, he demanded she start tithing on the value of the "free meals" she was getting from them.

Its funny how God created the universe some 14 billion years ago, created the earth and its solar system 4 billion years ago, man comes along 3.999 billion years later, and all of a sudden God needs money. What, is he going BK or something?

How trying this approach. Each payday you go to the bank and get cash for your total pay check. You go home and sit at the table. You throw all the money into the air and let God grab whatever he needs out of the air…any cash that lands back on the table is yours to do as you see fit.

It means you've been personally violated and that your wallet is lighter...and that some of the special things you'd like to buy for your family or that vacation you'd love to plan are now NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!...and for your faithful diligence and honesty you get the supreme privilege of cleaning your churches toilets and paying for the GA's spawn to go to "Bring Yer Undies" gratis!!! PULLEEEZE.....give me a friggin' break!!!

I always figured it was more important to make sure I had enough money to put my crop in and care for and harvest it, make sure my family had good food, good clothes and anything else they needed and that we could enjoy a family vacation....paying a friggin' church one red $0.01 never once entered into the discussion...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2012 01:55PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

I was at a tithing settlement with my parents when the bishop called my dad a liar for declaring he was a full tithe payer. I'm pretty sure my dad paid bills and tithed on the rest. The bishop was out of line. My parents attended another ward for a while but forgave this bishop and stayed faithful members. I don't think my dad changed his method of payment either, he always considered himself a full tithe payer and always paid his bills first.

this is what a " honest tithing" is to me: a check made out to TSCC for one blasted cent...

That would do it

The idiot actually gave me two conflicting answers and didn't even realize it. I quit asking about it after that. Sadly, I still paid tithing on my Net for several more years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2012 02:50PM by Stunted.

We went to tithing settlement once, and since my husband is an active duty military member, his salary is puplic information. Talk about extortion!! Sitting on the bishop's desk were the active duty pay charts showing exactly what rank makes what. No way to pay 1 cent less if you wanted to keep your TR. SOOOOOO glad that's done with.

I was talking to a not-so-TBM at the airline I fly for (which has no shortage of Mormons). The current contract's pay scales have also made it to TSCC, I hear. THAT'S cult behavior if I've ever seen it.

Hope you guys gave them a piece of your mind.

There are ex members here who whorked for TSCC who were required to have tithing taken out of their checks. I think that will be the closest to the "official" stand on tithing you will find, and I believe it was 10% of net. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

new bish called me on the phone and said he had an opening for thithing settlement.
I replied..
So let me get this straight..Your inviting me over to your office to sit down and personaly audit me on a freely given charitable donation?.. if thats so I am going to pass.

( new gun ho bish hadn't got the memo on me)

I haven't given the morg a dime for decades, and I've done it honestly.

I'm so glad the church keeps much of the LDS Tech blog open to the public so all the world can see that the church is really just a business. Here's a thread devoted helping bishops properly categorize the tithing status of members during tithing settlement. Please let me know if you can find any real hint that this is a spiritual endeavor. Change a few words, and this is an inner-office blog for the IRS:

https://tech.lds.org/forum/showthread.php?2367-Tithing-Settlement-Statement-vs.-Tithing-Declaration-Report.-Definition-of-Exempt

There's where all the tithing money goes. Making "training videos" for bishops on such things as how to account/figure members tithing.

Since such videos would be made in-house, I can see the photographer, the actor/front person, the people who make any visuals, the film editors, etc. all getting paid When it comes accounting time this department could then just submit a bill for $300,000,000 to make training video. How much of that bill gets funneled to off-shore accounts of those in charge?

"Did you lie convincingly?"

What is really exasperating is seeing old people, who paid on gross income all their lives, get hassled by bishops for not paying tithes in their retirement years.

Idiot bishops can't do math.

Bishops are not supposed to specify what an honest tithe means. They are merely to quote the phrase 'ten percent on your increase per annum' and leave it to you and God to decide what that means.

If you understand that phrase to mean ten percent of: your earnings in 2012 minus your earnings in 2011, then you can say you pay an honest tithe.

Tithing has always supposed to be one tenth of a member's interest annually. While that is left to each member to "ponder with the Lord," it is generally accepted to be against gross income (not net). Kind of like the IRS (or CRA for us) demands we declare all income from all sources. Where it becomes murky is when you are in business for yourself: what is yours (to tithe) and what is your business (not to tithe)? Do you tithe gifts, inheritances, etc?

Some members calculate tithing exactly (to the penny); others kind of guestimate and call it a full tithe. When I was a clerk a sister brought squash in from her garden as part of her tithing.

I was never offended that bishops no longer tell members explicitly what their tithing should be. My TBM wife found that especially frustrating because she expected the Church to tell us how to do *everything*.

My ex-wife's cousin works @ the COB. They wanted to institute mandatory payroll deductions for tithing because all Church employees must paying tithing to qualify for temple recommends. Who can object?

Here is a strange case: we once had a break-in at the clerk's office. The only items disturbed were the tithing records for the previous year. No vandalism or other thefts.

The next Sunday a member demands an accounting of his tithing from the previous year. We have no record in the computer of his donations. They must be in the files - that were just stolen during the previous week.

Through processing donations in that ward for years, I know that this member hasn't been paying tithing. Now there is no proof other than his copies of the donation slips.

Why doesn't this brother just say to the bishop, "I haven't paid tithing for this year."? He is a Church employee and will lose his position unless he pays full tithing. Hence, a crime (suspicious though unproven) is better than admitting that you haven't paid an honest tithe.

What is so honest about telling people that god is asking for 10% of your money, collecting it on behalf of god, and then turning around and using it to buy real estate?