So I was reading through the Mormon's Building Bridges FB page:

http://www.facebook.com/groups/mormonsbuildingbridges/?ref=ts

And I ran across a ditty written by Bianca Morrison Dillard. It started off great with "when we envisioned this group, we imagined it would be a place to talk about taking action."

Cool, I'm all for action.

Then she goes on and says "We didn't want it to turn into a place for discussion of politics or doctrine or even current events." EH? What possible action could they take that could be successful without taking into account the "politics or doctrine or even current events" that are creating the situation they are taking action on?

Lipstick on a pig, no real action possible.

I think it's an implied "politics or doctrine or even current events (not directly related to the purpose of the group)."

Their approved sign list that they had for the parade is more proof that they are not interested in dealing with the fundamental issues that are causing the problems. They have no interest what so ever in discussing the doctrine that impacts the gays. In other forums, the "action" they are talking about taking is to ask a gay member to sit with them.

Agreed. It does put them in a different position from most, though, giving them different "feet in the door," along with the drawbacks. I don't like it, but so many active members are very uncomfortable with anything more than that, which means that they can offer their support to this where they wouldn't offer it to something more "extreme."

creating a illusion of safety to give the LDS opportunity to preach their hateful messages to gays that otherwise would not be there.

The support would become the bait in the trap.

Any strategist in the world will tell you that you are doomed to fail unless you understand the situation and plan accordingly. They can not understand the situation and plan accordingly without understanding the politics etc.

And how many hapless LGBT teens will take the bait, and be mortally wounded by that heinous cult?

I shudder to think!!! Ugh!!

They are still active members of the church who either agree with the church's doctrine on gays or stay silent about their unorthodox beliefs. If they don't they are in for excommunication. It is impossible to try and take action in the church because dissent is not tolerated. That is great that they want to be nice to gay people that go to church but it doesn't change the fact that those gay people still have to be celibate their entire lives.

That pretty much bars any discussion of gay anything. The whole group reeks of the self-righteous passive aggressive Mormon version of love. "We love you and we're here to support you. We'll listen to you, but we've got our own agenda here."

I smell astroturf.

"We didn't want it to turn into a place for discussion of politics or doctrine or even current events."

I know I would not be able to express my views without discussing those things, so they clearly do not want to hear what I have to say.

in time for the November election ...

Yeah. Don't wanna lose the GLBT vote. OMFG, I hate this cult.

... I seriously doubt there would be any noticable fuss.

Can't trust 'em any farther than I can toss 'em.

Timothy

how far I can throw a mormon.

"When a public lie dances on stage, the truth is waiting in the wings."

Earthwalk, p. 149; Philip Slater

Frankly I would still give them time, still give them a chance. Having once been Mormon, I understand that the ordinary, run-of-the-mill member has no real voice in the church. They are torn to bits by cog dis yet they want to take some kind of action, and this is their awkward way of doing it.

Remember, they are like children who are used to receiving approval and validation from a parent before they can even think. They struggle to say their piece under fear of investigation, questioning or outright excommunication.

Think North Korean citizens preparing a request for more food and other basics for their province from the Dear Leader.

First off, the average run of the mill cult member does have a voice, the CHOOSE not to use it. They can stop paying tithing, they can choose to not sustain homophobic leaders, they can turn down callings, etc, etc. but the CHOOSE not to.

77% of the population in Utah supports gay rights, that means the majority of Mormons (by a 5 to 7 ratio) support gay rights. How safe of an environment do they need to come out and say "we support gay rights"? They can't even do THAT! They can't even affirm what the majority of Utah Mormons claim to be in support of.

Seriously, high school kids across Utah are taking action, forming gay/straight alliances that are doing more than these "adults", and have been doing so FOR A WHILE NOW.

But the bottom line, these people have had a chance to come out and say something every time a gay bashing story hits the news. They had chances to say stuff every time a Mormon gay teen's suicide is reported. The had a chance to say something when gays were protesting the temples. What have they done? They have let High school teens out shine them. They have done NOTHING and are continuing to do NOTHING.

They used up their chances a dozen gay teen suicides ago. They ran out of chances after the first gay teen Mormon suicide was reported and they did not speak out.

So, I ask you Charles, exactly how many more gay teens have to commit suicide before MBBers run out of chances?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2012 04:27PM by MJ.

I'll be clear that I'm NOT saying they're spot on. I'm saying give them a chance, they just might get it one day and put forth real world effort.

Let me repeat my "little children" analogy: they do not understand how the world works, they do not see the link between their church's war against homosexuality [Prop 8] and teen homosexual deaths. Or maybe they do and this is their first baby steps, their attempts at voicing their objection.

Stop paying tithing? That's tantamount to being investigated, shunned and excommunicated. Might as well opt for death in their view. That is the way they think. They have no more power than the church 'allows' them.

How many lives are acceptable losses before you stop giving them chances? Would you be willing to go to the mother of the next suicide victim and explain that we need to give the people some more chances before we demand action? Then tell her that the life of her son or daughter isn't enough for us to demand action.

The fucking high schoolers are taking chances facing repercussions, including getting gay bashed, why can't the ADULTS?

In this case the children Do understand and the ADULTS don't. Frankly your "little children" analogy is kinda insulting, those people are ADULTS NOT LITTLE CHILDREN. AS ADULTS THEY SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS OR INACTIONS.

Ignorance is NO EXCUSE, the high school kids are informed enough to take action, if the adults are not, that is the fault of the ADULTS.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2012 05:16PM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How many lives are acceptable losses before you
> stop giving them chances? Would you be willing to
> go to the mother of the next suicide victim and
> explain that we need to give the people some more
> chances before we demand action? The life of your
> son or daughter isn't enough for us to demand
> action.
>
> The fucking high schoolers are taking chances
> facing repercussions, including getting gay
> bashed, why can't the ADULTS?
>
> In this case the children Do understand and the
> ADULTS don't. Frankly your "little children"
> analogy is kinda insulting, those people are
> ADULTS NOT LITTLE CHILDREN. AS ADULTS THEY SHOULD
> BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS OR
> INACTIONS.
>
> Ignorance is NO EXCUSE, the high school kids are
> informed enough to take action, if the adults are
> not, that is the fault of the ADULTS.

Here we go again, you making this about me with that question "before you stop giving them chances". Why do you believe the LGBT community depends on my belief to give these "little children" a chance?

Yes, you are free to rage against them because they are not doing enough or anything. Let me tell you something, it's not up to them to initiate change. The MBB is just a club for minors. Your disappointment is misplaced. I believe we must look to the LDS academics, intellectuals and actual, real community leaders, family and friends of LGBT, and Ex-Mo's living in UTAH to effect change even a little at a time.

Why not pin our hopes on those teens forming gay/straight alliances in schools? Why can't the ADULTS? They're fuckin' scared is why. Sorry, my "little children" stands because you were talking about teens. You have never been Mormon and do not understand the Mormon mind-set one bit and you keep insisting they are adults. No, sir. The Mormons are hardly adults when it comes to the real world.

Mormons are the American Taliban, they will shut you down before you can open your mouth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2012 05:18PM by charles, buddhist punk.

It is you telling me that I should give them a chance, I am just asking you to quantify, in real terms, what you are suggesting as a number of chances to give them.

I am not making this about you, you made it about giving chances when you told ME to give them more chances.

So again in direct reference to your statement "still give them a chance", how many teen suicides is enough "chances"? I am asking you, how many lives are you willing to put at risk to do as you assert "give them a chance"?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2012 05:29PM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not making this about you, you made it about
> giving chances when you told ME to give them more
> chances.
>


Oh, okay. You've got your panties in a bunch because of semantics and grammar. Here you go:

"If it were up to me, I'd give them a chance..."

There.

So, in direct reference to your new statement "If it were up to me, I'd give them a chance..." if it were up to you, how many gay suicides would have to happen before you stopped giving them chances?

The longer there is inaction, the longer till there is a solution, the more teens will commit suicide, so, "if it was up to [you], how long would you wait, how many gay teen suicides are acceptable to you before you demand action?

And this time YOU made it about YOU.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, in direct reference to your new statement "If
> it were up to me, I'd give them a chance..." if it
> were up to you, how many gay suicides would have
> to happen before you stopped giving them chances?
>
>
> The longer there is inaction, the longer till
> there is a solution, the more teens will commit
> suicide, so, "if it was up to , how long would you
> wait, how many gay teen suicides are acceptable to
> you before you demand action?
>
> And this time YOU made it about YOU.

Sigh.

It is a simple question to clarify your assertion that we should give them a chance, so why the dodging?

A lot of atrocious things in history have been committed because people simply "didn't understand."

You do know I never said that.

You were clearly saying that the LDS adults were analogous to children that do not understand.

And I am still waiting for the number of teen suicides that are acceptable to you before you stop giving them chances.

Sorry, this is not about me.

Alright, I've joined MBB and posted a plea to them to do more.

Let us see if they delete it or respond positively. THEN we'll know if they are "sheep in wolves clothing".

They talk big about "taking action" then stifle any communication that would lead to any sort of meaningful action.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2012 05:47PM by MJ.

Yeah, thats the spirit of communication!

So, are you going to stand behind what you SAID (yes or no)?

This falls under the whole "their lips are close to me but their hearts are from me" line of thinking.

God, they just don't get it do they?

Levi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This falls under the whole "their lips are close
> to me but their hearts are from me" line of
> thinking.
>
> God, they just don't get it do they?


I agree. They don't.

I think it's a way for them to cover their backsides. As an organization, I don't think they actually believe in changing the church's policy or stance. They don't actually want to teach "It's okay to act on being gay." They just want to say, "We love you; come join us and give up your natural tendancies."

I'm yet to be convinced that Hispanics or the LGBT community vote will swing any states; more likely, an honest recognition of those groups & their efforts will demonstrated that they're either In Touch with the electorate 'as a whole' or not.

OTOH, black voters in southern swing states are important in their effectiveness (but possible countered by the anti-Cubans).

the effort to dis-enfranchise 'voter disqualification' will ultimately BACKFIRE; the neg press is FAR WORSE than any effect of disqualifying a few possible democratic voters;

Republicans vote on Tuesday, Democrats vote on Wednesday...

I had mixed feelings over the Mormons marching to begin with. Their posters just cited scripture and talked about love. That's all well and good, but incomplete-- particularly coming from a Mormon. Those posters were completely compatible with the kinds of crappy ideas I've heard from pulpits about loving the sinner but hating the sin. The history there can't just be overcome by love. It has to be overcome by a change in the status quo-- by COMPLETE acceptance, by REPUDIATION of the harmful and sexist teachings of the church, by accepting that homosexual relationships are natural and not sinful. A Mormon who thinks they are "building bridges" while at the same time thinking that the Proclamation on the Family is an inspired document, and that the brethren have the right ideas on homosexuality, is not enlightened-- they are just confused.

I didn't see any of the Mormon posters that advocated marriage equality, or repudiation of past teachings, or action to end real discrimination (I'd love to be wrong, so please tell me if you saw otherwise). Given that, I was suspicious that some of those folks are guided by such philosophies as "If we love them enough, and support them, we can help them live lives of celibacy and service to the church and/or mixed marriages". That's not good enough.

And now, so many of my more "liberal" Mormon acquaintances are passing around links to Joshua Weed's blog as if that proves that the LDS church is a gay-friendly belief system after all. They are so happy to have found out that all the critics are wrong-- that it is possible to be a completely faithful, fulfilled, happy TBM with a temple marriage to a nice person of the opposite sex, while being completely gay.

They are just finding more and more complicated ways to completely miss the point. That gayness is still an issue for them-- that it isn't completely acceptable without qualification-- that they don't want marriage equality-- that's what matters. They don't get points for walking around with smiley faces and saying "It's true, I'm a Mormon and I love you-- even if you're gay!".

The job of heterosexual America (including Mormons) is not to "profess love". I mean, love is all well and good, but the first priority is to do the right thing. It's to get out of the damn way and stop allowing and accepting policies of discrimination period. For a Mormon, I don't want to hear how they "love" and "support" gays unless it's accompanied by "Our church's current position on homosexuality is wrong."

"Love the sinner, hate the sin"

"I love you, that is why I am sending you to BYU to electroshock the gay out of you"

"God loves you, but if you don't change, he will condemn you to burn in hell"

Beware of Christians bearing sings claiming love.

Haha, definitely true. I DO think the church membership has come a LONG way since 30 years ago . . .

My dad is gay and was mormon (and I was mormon as well). While I don't agree with the modern prescription for homosexuals . . . it is a hell of a lot better than where we started. I write a bit about it here:

http://accidentalatheist.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/the-son-of-a-gay-man-weighs-in-on-josh-weed-and-the-mormon-gay-movement/